I don’t fully understand the analysis paralysis on buying secondhand, a new EV though, there’s a new model coming out every 5 minutes it seems, from new manufacturers, aome with every bell and whistle imaginable, 500+ hp accessible in a family suv for not bonkers money… nio, geekr, rivian, and there just a few, some of the new EV models only available in China are really very cool.
secondhand in the uk slightly less exciting
Those new models are all available second hand (with big discounts) after only a few months though.
I see what you are saying @thepurist and there is some truth in it. Only my ICE car isn't really ancient hardware and still does the job just fine. If it would give even a hint that it might be about to break down on me it would probably spur me into action, but it just keeps chugging along.
Since I'm interested in longevity, I thought I'd better educate myself on the different motor designs used in EVs. There is a lot of noise in the media about battery life, but that really isn't an issue. I'm sure any modern EV battery will be able to retain around 90% of it's original capacity even after 200,000 miles. But motor failure is much more common and often expensive enough to make it uneconomical to repair an older car. There are also fundamental differences in the design used by different manufacturers.
I've said before that I like what Renault are doing with their EVs at the moment. In terms of driving experience, tech etc there is a lot to like. But Renault and BMW seem to be the only manufacturers currently using Electrically Excited Synchronous Motors. While these are great from an environmental point of view (fewer/no rare-earth metals required) the need for bushings on the rotor means that these are unlikely to last as long as the Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motors favoured by most manufacturers. Indeed, experience with the Zoe suggests that these motors often fail before 100,000 miles let alone 200,000.
In general, if longevity is the issue, then much like Japanese ICE cars in the 80s/90s it looks as though Chinese built is the way to go at the moment. Lots of high mileage Chinese built Teslas on the road but also a fair few examples of Chinese built MGs being used as taxis and racking up high mileages with very few problems and a few tear-down videos suggesting that the Chinese built cars are generally very well put together.
On Zoé forums it's not the motors that are a weak point but the drop gears. You can hear the characteristic whine on many Renault EVs. Our first Zoé whined from new but the latest one much less so. The bushes don't run on segments but on a smooth axle so they wear very slowly and are easily replaced - not an issue.
I'm test driving a Megane E later today.
Thanks @Edukator. I've spent far too long watching Gary C rebuilding Zoes on Youtube so probably have an unreasonably negative view of Renault 😀 Although having bushes and an electrically excited rotor sounds fundamentally less reliable than just having a permeant magnet, it does seem to be the bearing that fails before the bushes or, as you say, the reduction gear. Either way, there is not much to suggest that Renault know how to build an EV that lasts 🤔
Interested to hear how you get on with it @stcolin. I still find it hard to resist the extra range of the Scenic even though the Megane is the more fun car to drive and a better option for me for 90% of the time. Main complains I've seen from owners tend to be an alarm that sets itself off for no reason (on some cars), a very flaky app (with limited functionality) and complaints about the range in winter. But that seems to be common with all EVs and mainly down to owners not understanding how EVs work yet as far as I can tell.
I've had my Megane since Dec '22, a non heat pump early Techno model. No alarm issues - in fact no issues at all (touch wood), currently on 32k miles. I've test driven a Scenic and love the idea of the battery that's a third bigger, but the whole car is bigger and heavier and doesn't feel quite as much fun as the Megane. I like the bigger central screen on the Scenic but that comes on all newer Meganes too apart from the base model.
The Renault app doesn't seem to work all the time which was an issue over last winter when it wouldn't reliably pre heat the cabin on cold mornings. I found a third party app which has been rock solid called "Kelec".
Range is definitely lower in winter. In lovely warm weather the on board computer shows a range of 240/250 miles when it's full, that drops down to 170/180 in very cold conditions.
I reckon the reduction gear would be an easy fix. The assembly is tiny, it's not like a transmission or final drive on an ICE. A lot of manufacturers seem to suggest it sealed for life, but people are saying to replace the oil. It's a 5 minute job, there's no filter and it only takes like two litres in many cars.
But again don't worry about it that much. These things are fixable, and they are no more dramatic than having a transmission failure in an ICE and people don't always jump on the internet as soon as this happens.
In lovely warm weather the on board computer shows a range of 240/250 miles when it's full, that drops down to 170/180 in very cold conditions.
Well, I think I'm converted. My full proper drive in an EV. The Megane was really really nice. Very nice cabin, quality seems great too, and the ride was plush. Genuinely surprised at how good the ride was on the 20" wheels. The instant shove was actually addictive and had me laughing out loud.
The extra range on the Scenic would be nice, but it's too big for me really. My average work distance is somewhere between 125-150 miles (I'm a rep of sorts), so the Megane should cut it for most journeys I'd say.
Think I have now kicked the EV can a good few years down the road now. Well I would like one but as the next car needs to be suitable for a new 17year old driver too, it's just not insurable at a sensible cost. Stupid really as something like a used Kia Soul EV at £5k and 100k miles is insurance group 18 yet isn't at all quick. I need insurance group 5 or so for a new driver so it's so far away from being a sensible insurance cost that it isn't going to happen.
Imagine if a generation of new drivers could be encouraged into EVs. No, the insurance industry have decided that isn't going to happen.
We switched to a plug in hybrid earlier this year. To be honest it’s a bit of a pain in the arse. We can’t have charging infrastructure at home as don’t have off road parking on a main road.
But I frequently drive a few miles to a local rail car park to get the train to work and the car park has four charging points which are never in use. Great I thought I’ll just top up there a few times a week. So far, at least one of the chargers per visit has been unresponsive so had to move to another. Another time the car wouldn’t charge at all even though showing on the App. And now this morning all spaces are free but none showing on the App to initiate. Pretty shit really and a good job it’s a hybrid as this is one of only a handful of public chargers in my part of a major city (Sheffield). It’ll have been said a million times before but the infrastructure needs to be infinitely better than it is now for people without home charging to switch.
The extra range on the Scenic would be nice, but it's too big for me really.
That's basically my dilemma in a nutshell.
The Scenic gives an average of 65 miles more range, which is not insignificant.
It is longer, taller and heavier but (ignoring the slightly larger mirrors on the Scenic) the width is pretty much identical. So it's not really like you can fit the Megane through gaps that the Scenic wouldn't make.
I've spent a bit of time playing with the ABRP route planner, which is fun as you can select different cars and see what it suggests for journeys that you know. I've found that, with the Scenic I basically wouldn't have to change anything from my ICE car. Even for my longest (500 mile) journeys I'd basically make the same number of stops in roughly the same places as I do in my current ICE car and the total charging time is less than the time we are typically stopped at each point. But with the Megane I would have to change the way I approach those journeys. Basically more frequent (but slightly shorter) stops. Whether or not that matters to me seems almost impossible to know but it does mean that the car is now dictating when I would have to stop, which isn't the case for the Scenic.
I've spoken with a fair few EV drivers now (virtually and IRL). Some say the extra stops are no big deal and you quickly adapt while others say they are a pain and they wish they had bought a car with a longer range (or just stuck with ICE).
What you can say is that, with charging infrastructure still being a bit flaky, more stops means more chances of things going wrong. But even that is a picture that is changing quickly.
Genuinely surprised at how good the ride was on the 20" wheels
They do trash range but for some reason manufacturers fit them as standard. I know that Hyundai have an option to spec smaller wheels on Ioniq 5s from the factory which is more comfortable and gives a big range boost, so it's a bit of a no-brainer when cars are sold on range. So I'd ask if Renault can do the same.
No, the insurance industry have decided that isn't going to happen.
It will happen eventually, just not yet because most young people aren't buying EVs due to cost.
I've spent a bit of time playing with the ABRP route planner, which is fun as you can select different cars and see what it suggests for journeys that you know
ABRP massively under-estimates the range I get from my car though, not sure why.
Insurance is an interesting one. It seems to be mainly down to price and availability of spare parts. There are fewer places that can repair an EV and repairs generally take longer than for an ICE car, which means higher costs for the insurance company (who have to provide a replacement car) even if the parts themselves don't cost much more. All of this should change over time though as EVs become more common.
Pretty shit really and a good job it’s a hybrid as this is one of only a handful of public chargers in my part of a major city (Sheffield).
Looks like there's quite a few?
I've noticed a bit of a change recently from the (pro and anti) EV brigade on YouTube when it comes to chargers. These guys (and it is mostly guys) are chasing clicks of course so everything is over dramatised for effect. But while there used to be lots of content about how poor the public charging infrastructure was (lack of chargers, poor reliability, complex payment etc) that content has largely dried up. Instead we are seeing more videos showing big banks of chargers with no users. It's like we've gone from under supply to over supply.
Mind you, that doesn't seem to be supported by the data that I can find. According to the RAC the number of BEVs on our roads increased by almost 40% in 2024, while according to ZapMap the number of charge points "only" increased by 30%.
Pretty shit really and a good job it’s a hybrid as this is one of only a handful of public chargers in my part of a major city (Sheffield).
Looks like there's quite a few?
Unfortunately (for access to public charging) I live right on the edge of the city right at the Derbyshire border, and around me is very limited compared to the city centre. I really dont want to drive into the city as it’s a pain and you also have to pay for the parking as well as the charging. I can just about stomach 50p/KWh but not as well as £15+ for the car park too for the day. Slightly ridiculously we’re now looking as possibly moving house to in part having our own off street parking space for a charger as well.
Looks like there's quite a few?I've mentioned this before, but if you look at the same map for similar sized city over here, it's "quite different".
Both are cities of around 550-600 thousand people... Just a little tweak to legislation and you get chargers springing up like weeds. Some of these locations have 200+ chargers.
And looking at my nearest city, it's got almost as many charger locations as Sheffield, but around 1/10th of the population. (a couple of the locations have more than 50 chargers as well.)
My council has just ruled out an EV for me. Our house has a footpath one side and a service road the other where we can park next to our shed. However the council has decided to include the service road in the area wide ban on pavement parking despite the fact nobody needs to walk down it and there is no obstruction to bin lorries etc.
Had an email from Ohme saying OVO are ditching integration as of 15th July. Nothing from OVO though which is a massive own-goal, but I did find a post on their forum and as my car is compatible I can use their app and essentially put my Ohme charger in a dumb mode but still approve plug-ins (allegedly - not tried it yet).
Forums are blowing up by the look as they were recommending Ohme 3 months ago, so people are rightly annoyed. In fact it all seems a bit half-baked as they're partnered with VW for free miles but VW are partnered with Ohme to provide the free chargers for their offer.
Handily we're not currently contracted to OVO, so if the new way is rubbish it'll be easy to jump ship to Octopus.
Yes, see my long rambling post from earlier. I'm with OVO and when I signed up to get a charger installed (back in November) the Ohme Home Pro was one of only two options, but a couple of weeks before the install (in May) I got a call to say that was no longer an option so went with an Indra instead.
I can understand them changing the recommended charger for new installs but it's a bit off if they stop supporting existing customers who installed the charger that they recommended only a few months ago.
Looks like it's all driven by the need to distinguish where the power comes from, by the sound of it there's scenarios where a customer has solar and that energy goes in to the car but due to not knowing that, OVO give the customer a credit for the energy even though they never paid for it in the first place.
Appears that the chargers left on the approved list can provide that data and also explains why they now want the energy usage to come from the car rather than the now incompatible chargers.
Did quite a positive post last year on our trip to France (440 miles each way) in an e+ Leaf. Repeated the trip this year and frankly, it was a bit of a pain in the arse. Plenty of planned stops that were easy last time involved a divert into the nearest town because we couldn't get on to a (usually sole) chademo charger and coming back on the last leg before the shuttle we had 4 attempts in a row where we couldn't get on a charger, ending up at the Coquelles Ionity on 2%. And despite cruising at 60mph the battery still got too hot and slowed charging right down. Electroverse card still worked everywhere and avoided any extra hassle.
CCS adaptor (now sub £600) would have avoided some aggro but the battery would have still overheated. They're a decent car for 300ish mile days but this is pushing it a bit too far. I think we'll be using the old petrol MPV instead and when the Leaf gets handed back soon we'll go for something smaller for an everyday runabout.
There's the same number of chargers at the aires we used as last year but way more French cars using them - some places could do with double or triple the number and still be busy. Lots of new Renault and Peugeot EVs, and I suspect it'll be a right pain in the proper holiday season. More off-motorway options now though, although since the chademo requirement has gone away many are 2-4 CCS and a 22kw AC.
Question- We have an EV, solar batteries and hot water, and need to charge/heat them all overnight to make the most of the cheap rate. I calculate 12kw max if they are all going at the same time, will we die? Now I know I can move things around time wise ( we have 6 hours, Octopus ), my big question is for the hot water, how long at 3kw will a 250ltr take? This is all worst case scenario as well ( winter ) and I know the three things are all separately fused and fed etc and the main fuse is 100a, but I just suddenly thought, wow, I could be drawing over 50amps at one go. Sorry, just the random worries of a novice.
Unless the entire tank is stone cold then you'd probably only need an hour or two with the immersion running. It won't heat the whole tank though unless you have a pump to stop it stratifying.
Fuse carrier might say 100A, fuse inside could be very different, so unless you've seen it, assume less. You can overload a 60A to 80A for an hour though, so I wouldn't be bothered anyway.
Overnight peak for my house is 85A at the moment.
Question- We have an EV, solar batteries and hot water, and need to charge/heat them all overnight to make the most of the cheap rate. I calculate 12kw max if they are all going at the same time, will we die? Now I know I can move things around time wise ( we have 6 hours, Octopus ), my big question is for the hot water, how long at 3kw will a 250ltr take? This is all worst case scenario as well ( winter ) and I know the three things are all separately fused and fed etc and the main fuse is 100a, but I just suddenly thought, wow, I could be drawing over 50amps at one go. Sorry, just the random worries of a novice.
We regularly go over 50amp total, when I have the car charging, the oven (2 ovens actually) heating up, the hob on, kettle etc. The house is on a 100amp fuse
It always been fine, but the car charger is set to reduce its consumption if the total house load is over 80amps, I don't think we've ever got anywhere near 80amps.
Let's do some science. Specific heat of water is 4.2kJ per kg per degree C. Assuming you want to heat 250l from stone cold (about 15C) to 50C (you don't need 250l of 65C water) that's about 10kWh, which would take 3h20 at 3kW. Most immersion heaters are 7kW though no?
It won't heat the whole tank though unless you have a pump to stop it stratifying.
I think convection takes care of that? The immersion coil is at or near the bottom, so it would circulate?
I'm seriously considering an ID.7 Tourer Pro S (nominally 422m range with a heatpump), now that would be totally sufficient for 90-95% of our driving but our annual summer holiday is Bristol > France loaded up with 3 bikes, enormous roof box etc. Anyone do similar journeys currently with roof boxes and bikes?? Does efficiency fall off a cliff?? I wouldn't want a 422 mile range to be say 50% worse.
ABRP reckons we could do Arras > Murol (this years destination) with 2 charging stops in 6h20m and arrive with 20% left, but that isn't accounting for the hit of 690L of roof box and the bikes.
Interestingly, standard google route planner puts the journey at 6h28m anyways. We'd usually stop once during the longer leg of these drives for food anyways (don't get me started on the lack of Gluten free food at French service stations though!) - the charging curve of the ID.7 means we could typically do 10-80% within the length of a usual stop, given we're shepherding two kids to toilets etc.)
Thanks @Molgrips. It's always good to see the numbers. I think am fixating on the 6 hrs low rate, and trying to squeeze everything in there, but in reality, with Octopus Intelligent Go, the car will charge out of those hours as well ( still at the low rate) so not as much pressure on those hours. I rest easy.....well, a bit easier.
I assume you'll be going in the hols? In which case factor in queues for the chargers, and yes the roof box, bikes etc will make quite the difference in range. We drove to the French Alps last year with friends, who decided to take their new Tesla. It was winter, with Skis and a roof box and four of them, needless to say the convoy stopped at Thurrock Services, and we met them at the Hotel in Calais, and then in Morzine the next day, 3 hrs later than us ( and I drive like Miss Daisy).I'm seriously considering an ID.7 Tourer Pro S (nominally 422m range with a heatpump), now that would be totally sufficient for 90-95% of our driving but our annual summer holiday is Bristol > France loaded up with 3 bikes, enormous roof box etc. Anyone do similar journeys currently with roof boxes and bikes?? Does efficiency fall off a cliff?? I wouldn't want a 422 mile range to be say 50% worse.
ABRP reckons we could do Arras > Murol (this years destination) with 2 charging stops in 6h20m and arrive with 20% left, but that isn't accounting for the hit of 690L of roof box and the bikes.
Interestingly, standard google route planner puts the journey at 6h28m anyways. We'd usually stop once during the longer leg of these drives for food anyways (don't get me started on the lack of Gluten free food at French service stations though!) - the charging curve of the ID.7 means we could typically do 10-80% within the length of a usual stop, given we're shepherding two kids to toilets etc.)
Sorry, but you'll just have to set yourself a more relaxed schedule, but hey , you're on you hols!
Does efficiency fall off a cliff??
Roof boxes, 80mph driving and bikes on the back have a huge effect on any car, so yes. Probably not 50% but a lot. A trailer might be better.
But yes as above, you will need to have more stops. It shouldn't really matter if an 8hr drive becomes a 9 hour drive, should it? Is it worth paying six or eight times as much for your daily driving all year just to save two or three hours a year?
And it probably won't be two or three hours - you'd be surprised how long a toilet/coffee stop actually takes and how much charging can be done in that time. As I've said before, going to Scotland in my short range and very slow charging car we made 5 stops and only sat actually waiting for it for about half an hour. The rest of the time was spent buying or eating food, and weeing.
Does efficiency fall off a cliff?? I wouldn't want a 422 mile range to be say 50% worse.
Even if it did fall dramatically that's still only a stop say every three hours, which you'd probably need to do anyway.
I am using Octopus Intelligent Go charging, and in the real world, the only time it doesn't make 100% by 6AM is if I get back from an occassional long trip and start at 20%. For day-to-day I don't usually need it at 100% so happy to charge over 2 night sessions.
If i need to leave with 100% i can boost outside low rate hours and charge at 27p/kW which is still pretty good value.
Much as I would love a trailer we don’t have anywhere to store one short of paving over the front garden which would be a hard sell!
Yeah, I’m under no illusions how long the average stop takes, we were stuck in a McDonald's queue for 40 minutes when heading to Cornwall in the half term just gone. Can probably deal with 2 slightly longer stops, but yes, it is in the holidays, hadn’t factored in queuing for chargers really.
Possibly a moot point for this years trip anyway as a factory order likely wouldn’t arrive before it
If you're going for an id7 then think about speccing it with the dynamic suspension option - apparently it makes a big difference to ride quality. Also note that some advertised features aren't supported in the UK - app controlled parking, walk up/walk away locking and the kick to open tailgate iirc
Oh yeah, we’d be speccing the Interior and Exterior packs so it would be pretty loaded. Did not know about region locking of features though, that’s a bit annoying.
I like that range of something like a Scenic (or Model Y) but not the size. So, now you've convinced me that built-in Google maps might not be as big an advantage as I thought, I've started looking for something smaller that still has a 350+ mile WLTP range. The obvious choices seem to be the EV3 or some variants of the ID3/Born. They all seem to have the heat pump as an optional extra though (and quite a rare option on the second hand models I'm looking at) which brings me back to the old question of whether a heat pump is important or not. For context I live in NE Scotland so it's a fair bit colder than it is down in Englandshire.
I know we've covered this already but it's hard to get any definitive numbers for the effect of a heat pump. Lots of opinions of course and people claiming the effect is significant, but very few numbers.
Best I've found so far is an estimate that a resistive heater uses on average 1.5kw to maintain the cabin at a comfortable temperature, while a heat pump would use around 0.7kw to do the same. So, on a long run, if you assume each leg is around 3 hours of driving (which is about right for me) the car without the heat pump would use around 3kwh more for each leg of the journey. Does that sound about right?
@afrothunder88 my ID7 GTX tourer (car through work) arrives on Wednesday, I’ll let you know what I think. We have 5 and 9 year olds, I’ve been driving a loaner model Y and our trips have confirmed even with the low range etc we need to stop more for kids than we do for electric.
My behavioural/thinking change is that basically you just plug in when you stop. Never get too low never get too high. When we were going to NW Scotland, we actually had to rush to finish food because the car was full.
My impression of France last year albeit in our a6 diesel, was plenty of chargers at the service stations
If i need to leave with 100%
?!? I realize that cars differ but at 95% charge or more I’ve found the regenerative braking on all our Teslas more or less absent. YMMV, I’d rather charge no higher than 90% and have full regen braking than get another 10-30 miles’ range.
Best I've found so far is an estimate that a resistive heater uses on average 1.5kw to maintain the cabin at a comfortable temperature, while a heat pump would use around 0.7kw to do the same. So, on a long run, if you assume each leg is around 3 hours of driving (which is about right for me) the car without the heat pump would use around 3kwh more for each leg of the journey. Does that sound about right?
I think your arithmetic is fairly sound. I expect there are other effects to consider in cold weather but it’s about right to me. I suppose on that basis £1,000 or so for a heat pump (in those vehicles whose manufacturers don’t really want to sell EVs) that gives you ~15miles more range or saves you ~£0.30 on such a journey is maybe not so convincing?
Our Buzz GTX has all of that working as standard, so it'd seem strange if it wasn't on the ID7.
(In response to the ID7 comment above)
Our Buzz GTX has all of that working as standard, so it'd seem strange if it wasn't on the ID7.
(In response to the ID7 comment above)
Buzz gtx? Nice. Haven’t seen one on the roads yet
rhought they’d be super popular & everywhere
Buzz gtx? Nice. Haven’t seen one on the roads yet
rhought they’d be super popular & everywhere
I haven't seen any others either. Got ours a few weeks back. Long wheelbase, 6 seater. To be honest, the standard Buzz with a couple of options is the same price as the GTX which has everything as standard plus 4 wheel drive, larger battery, nicer interior and mahoosive wheels (which look awesome). Very happy with it so far.
and mahoosive wheels (which look awesome).
I’ve got exactly the same as you .
I declined the wheel repair insurance from the dealer , then promptly kerbed it on the first day 😫 . Then did the passenger side front wheel a couple of days later in a tight drive thru 😤 .
£200 later , with them being repaired on my driveway ( who knew that service existed), I have been doubly careful since then. If I don’t scrape them again then I’ll be quids in 😎
When we were going to NW Scotland, we actually had to rush to finish food because the car was full.
Yeah, in the Starbucks in Carlisle I had to get up and move the car because we hadn't finished eating. Happy to say I saw a few other people doing the same - 8 rapid chargers and it was pretty busy.
I think your arithmetic is fairly sound. I expect there are other effects to consider in cold weather but it’s about right to me.
Thanks. You are right that there might be other effects that I haven't considered. If we are just looking at cabin heating then it looks as though a car without a heat pump would use roughly an extra kwh for each hour of driving compared to the same car with a heat pump. That mattered when cars had ~20kwh batteries as you were losing ~5% of the battery every hour just to keep warm, but seems rather trivial when you have 60-70kwh to play with. Plus, of course, you are adding complexity to the system, which means higher repair bills and worse reliability in the long run too.
But, what if it isn't just about the energy used to heat the cabin and a heat pump provides other advantages I haven't considered? I think I'd still find it hard to buy a modern EV without a heat pump, just in case.
Getting reliable data on this is surprisingly difficult. There are various cars that have a heat pump as an option and loads of youtube channels from aspiring car reviewers all saying the same stuff. It's surprising that more haven't at least tried to test this.
There is lots of anecdotal evidence of course and the usual attempt to take one unreliable data point and extrapolate it to make some grand conclusion. But hardly anything you could really class as useful data.
The closest I've seen to a vaguely scientific approach was Jonathan Porterfield's video where he looked at data they had from over 40 cars, roughly half of which had a heat pump but were otherwise pretty similar (same make, model, weight, wheels, tyres etc). Unfortunately, while he showed the mean values for each month of the year he didn't give the standard deviation so it's hard to know how significant the results are or what the error might be. But taking the results at face value, for January, average consumption with a heat pump was 2.98 m/kwh and without a heat pump this dropped to 2.66 m/kwh. So, if you were using, say, 50 kwh for a leg of a long journey then you'd travel 149 miles with the heat pump or 133 miles without it. Put another way, if you needed to travel 140 miles to get from one charge stop to the next that would cost you 47.0kwh with a heat pump or 52.6 kwh without one. So you'd need a slightly longer stop to recharge to the same point, but only a few minutes as you'd be at the part of the charging curve where charging was fastest.
That's the worst case scenario of course. By March that 140 mile journey costs 42.5 kwh with a heat pump vs 44.3 kwh without one and since Jonathan is based in Orkney his January figures are probably as bad as it gets in the UK. By the way, by July the cars without a heat pump actually gave a slightly higher average efficiency than those with one. But, as I say, he didn't give the variance so I expect this is just a random effect.
?!? I realize that cars differ but at 95% charge or more I’ve found the regenerative braking on all our Teslas more or less absent. YMMV, I’d rather charge no higher than 90% and have full regen braking than get another 10-30 miles’ range.Do tesla still not have proper brake blending?
I just charge to 100% if i need it for the range and then let the car work out how much energy i can put into the battery on each brake application, whether it be through one pedal drive, or pressing the brake pedal. Then the "extra" is realised through friction brakes. Then i always get maximum range, and consistent behaviour.
It's surprising how little below 100% charge you need to be to get full regen.
Duplicate post...
I picked up an ID7 ProS last week and haven't had chance to press all of the buttons yet, but will see if there is anything significant 'missing' once I've had a bit more time with it. It's on standard suspension and smaller wheels, but I'd say the ride is pretty good - may be worth taking one for a spin before speccing the dynamic suspension.
It's a really nice car, really well built, quiet, and absolutely huge inside (parked next to a 5 series BMW this morning that looked smaller). No complaints so far!
I'll be travelling around with a bike rack on the back a bit over the next few weeks, so will report back on range.
Plus, of course, you are adding complexity to the system, which means higher repair bills and worse reliability in the long run too
Barely. The heat pump is just the A/C run backwards. It has a few tweaks to allow it to work backwards but it's the same parts - compressor, condenser and evaporator.
It's surprising how little below 100% charge you need to be to get full regen.
On my Hyundai, the regen won't work for about the first 700m of driving, which in practice means the third or fourth gentle braking event. On my Leaf, it wouldn't work at all until I got down to 95% and wouldn't work at full power until 90% I think.
I see there is lots of man-math going on about heat pumps and range and cost. I've found in the real world on long trips, you just get on and drive and charge on a fast charger when the car tells you. I put it in eco mode and adaptive cruise to max the range, and then if i need to stop en-route for a charge I'll just find the best fast charger stop and have a wee and a coffee there. I might charge when i am at 50% (and need a wee) and put enough in to get me to my destination rather than let it get low, and i can then top up on a slower charger when i am there.
Drove to Nottingham Uni oepn day, charged w 40% left on a fast Gridpoint on the M1 while haveing a wee to get me there, and then left it on a 7kw charger at the tram terminus while we visited. left to return with 100%, and stopped on the southern M1 to top up enough to get back to Sussex. Two wee stops as i suspect you would need in an ICE
Or I drove from Sussex to Brexity/Reform Norfolk coast last week. 190 miles. doable in one hit. Got there w 30% left, put it on a 150kw rapid charger when i got there, had a coffee and a bunfor 45 mins, went to my meeting with 97% charge, and then got back to Sussex w 30 miles (but that was into a head wind)
So you can do all the man math in the world, but it's actually very easy to live with in the real world. Appreciate if you are a road warrior who drives for a living that might change things a bit, but seems most of us on here are doing mostly majority local mileage.
Re driving to France, thinking of a Provence trip later int he year, so charging will be interesting. But i've found that in France in the summer it's crazy busy on the main routes anyway, so you're best getting off the autoroute for fuel rather than queue for pumps at services, or leave really early to miss the crowds. Suspect that will be the same thing for an EV (may eat my words on that mind)
Re the comment on 100% charge v regen braking - hadn't thought about that. I'll go to 100% for the range usually, but may adjust the target to 90-95% when i am just doing local trips.
I see there is lots of man-math going on about heat pumps and range and cost.
My maths was strictly gender neutral I'll have you know 😀
It's a fair point though. One you have an EV the range is the range and you just get on with it. But when buying a car you want to make the "right" choice so knowing what effect a heat pump really has in practice is quite useful. Probably less than the effect of dropping your speed from 70mph to 65mph from what I've read, but still not sure I've understood it properly.
Barely. The heat pump is just the A/C run backwards.
True, although there are some extra valves, sensors and pipework. Plus, I've never had a car where the AC didn't need fixing at some point. Usually just a re-gas but sooner or later they all spring a leak.
Yeah, in the Starbucks in Carlisle I had to get up and move the car because we hadn't finished eating.
There is a lot of noise from the anti-EV brigade about how long it takes to charge an EV and what a pain that is. This leads to manufacturers pushing ever faster charging speeds. But once people realise that EV charging is something that happens while you are doing other things they might also realise that a car that charges too quickly can be as much of a pain in practice as one that charges too slowly. I guess the ideal is one that gets to 80% really quickly and then slows down to give you time to finish your lunch 😀
EV charging is something that happens while you are doing other things
I think some people don't like the idea that they may be forced to do "other things" while the car charges.
I've done my fair share of "long" trips over the last 45 years and in that time I can only remember stopping for food once and never "for a coffee" (they've always been drunk on the go).
The car may well charge while you're doing something else, but if you've not got something else to do - such as drink a crap cup of coffee or eat some unneeded food at a service station - then it may become an inconvenience.
Personally I can't think of anything I'd rather do less than to stop at a service station for 30 minutes or longer (presuming the charger works and there's no-one there already) and fill my time spending more money than I need to.
If the future electric car [which looks like an R5 atm] can't do what I need in one go then I'll take my ICE car that has a range in excess of 800 miles - so very likely there and back without any stops.
I think some people don't like the idea that they may be forced to do "other things" while the car charges.
I think that the “other thing” that you are, quite rightly, supposed to do is called “not driving “
It’s not really safe to drive long distances without taking the occasional break.
My EV conveniently provides a snooze button on the drivers seat which fully reclines the driver seat to allow for a swift kip if coffee / food /stretching your legs etc are “not your thing”
400 miles in one go isn’t safe for you or other road users, regardless of whether its in an EV or an ICE.
400 miles for 1 driver is a lot but not so difficult for two.... I.e. me and Mrs SB. 2 minute swap.
I haven't seen any others either. Got ours a few weeks back. Long wheelbase, 6 seater. To be honest, the standard Buzz with a couple of options is the same price as the GTX which has everything as standard plus 4 wheel drive, larger battery, nicer interior and mahoosive wheels (which look awesome). Very happy with it so far.
what’s the range like on the gtx ? And that pano roof 🙂
The GTx doesn’t have a larger battery as far as I’m aware. Just larger wheels meaning marginally worse efficiency than the cheaper ones.
In terms of driving time and range, for a UK run where you tend to have relatively limited speed even on motorways they don’t seem to bad. But for a run down to the alps (about a quarter of our mileage) you’d be stopping for 20 minutes every hour and a bit (by the time you allow for charger spacing etc). The other issue is a couple hour trip to somewhere with no destination charger (llandegla, bpw, most sailing clubs and the like). That is a four hour trip that you would have to shoehorn a half hour charge into. Not an issue if you are time rich, but if you work and want to make the most of your weekends it’s a real drag.
The LWB Buzz has a larger battery, so by default my GTX does. I am consistently getting 250 miles full range which is fine for me. The massive roof is very nice (although somewhat awkward to clean...).
I've done my fair share of "long" trips over the last 45 years and in that time I can only remember stopping for food once and never "for a coffee" (they've always been drunk on the go)
Maybe it's time to adjust your attitude, for the sake of the environment? I mean 100kg extra CO2 on a 500 mile journey just to save you 20 minutes doesn't seem right? That said, I'm taking my diesel to Scotland at the end of the month, but I'll be feeling bad about it 🙂
I've done my fair share of "long" trips over the last 45 years and in that time I can only remember stopping for food once and never "for a coffee" (they've always been drunk on the go).
You may want to get the confession to moving traffic offences removed.
On my Hyundai, the regen won't work for about the first 700m of driving, which in practice means the third or fourth gentle braking event. On my Leaf, it wouldn't work at all until I got down to 95% and wouldn't work at full power until 90% I think.But you get the full braking effect don't you? Even when regen isn't at full availability.
Yes, IIRC there's no difference in the driving feel. However in the Leaf I seem to remember having to press the pedal a bit further if there's no regen available.
I'm just about to decide on my new car. 90% sure I'm going for the Megane. My average work journey is about 125 miles, so I will cover 80% of my journeys on a single charge.
The luxury car tax limited my choices in the end.
As a male of a certain age, i workout journeys assessing time between bladder emptying. Sharkbait must have a much greater capacity than Minus....or am i overreading the situation?
There's always the Amazon delivery driver approach?
Personally after 3-4 hours i am desperate for the delights of a dingy Moto service station just as a change from the horrific boredom of sitting on the motorway and the diabolical arseache that all car seats seem to bestow
I've done my fair share of "long" trips over the last 45 years and in that time I can only remember stopping for food once and never "for a coffee" (they've always been drunk on the go)
Maybe it's time to adjust your attitude, for the sake of the environment? I mean 100kg extra CO2 on a 500 mile journey just to save you 20 minutes doesn't seem right? That said, I'm taking my diesel to Scotland at the end of the month, but I'll be feeling bad about it 🙂
I wouldn't quarrel with the environmental position. When the current car becomes life expired it's replacement will be electric for that reason, despite the faff. However, the folks that claim there is no downside and anyone who has a different attitude to travel them are wrong don't help. They just give the impression that EVs are for the hard of thinking.
Weird my BiLs argument was pretty much the same. He does 350miles twice a year but can't stop for an extra 20 mins on his pee stop to charge to 80% to complete his journey.
Maybe it's time to adjust your attitude, for the sake of the environment?
Maybe I would if there was an EV that do what I need - but tomorrow I'm going to tow a 2 ton boat 120 miles and the last time I looked there was no EV that could achieve that. Additionally I buy my cars outright, I've had this one for 12 years and I'll probably keep it another 3 at least. I see no reason to borrow £30-40k to spend on something that's going to depreciate like a stone and is less capable than what I already have.
I'm sure we will get an EV at some point - as I said before, the R5 looks like a good replacement for our Fiesta, but not my car, not for a while.
you never had a drink of water in the car?You may want to get the confession to moving traffic offences removed.
Another real world example.
I got one of 'those' phone calls last night. I was due to be driving up to Uni to move my daughter out of her house today (Weds), so had plans to charge up last night, top up at work today, and then I'd maybe have just enough or a short 15min stop, which wouldn't have been a hardship because we'd need to grab something on the way back down.
But her boyfriend of 2 years and her have decided it isn't going to work out in the real world and so i got a call about half seven saying is it possible to pick her up immediately, she doesn't want to be stuck in her house on her own. Uni is 105 miles away, mainly motorway so 1:40 on a good run.
I had just about 60% charge of a 64kwh battery so enough to get to Leam, and then just enough (18miles spare) to get back to the superchargers at Banbury. Tesla (I know!) but at 11pm they were 43p/kwh and on my 21 Kona charged at 74kw, so I was there for about 30 mins topping back up to 60% at a cost of £18, enough time for a McWee and a coffee. And then home. Plugged in as soon as back, now back up to 70%
So yes, mildly inconvenienced compared to a takeaway coffee and possibly needing to put petrol in, no denying. But far from disastrous.
However, the folks that claim there is no downside and anyone who has a different attitude to travel them are wrong don't help.
I think there is some truth to this. I also think it is pointless trying to convince somebody who doesn't want an EV that they are wrong. If you think they are wrong just leave them to it. The actions of an individual don't matter. What matters is whether as a population we are going to move from ICE to EV or not. There will always be some who proceed quickly and some who go more slowly. The sales numbers (new and used) would suggest that a transition is underway and is probably now unstoppable.
The move from horses to cars didn't work for the person who needed to go over the mountain on a rocky path once a month. But that didn't stop the transition from happening and in the end they built a road over the mountain.
Personally, I hope we never have EVs that can tow large trailers or caravans. They will be massively over powered for what most people need. Let those who really want to tow a large object hang on to their ICE cars (or even buy an ICE car specifically for towing). There aren't enough of them for it to matter and if the transition to EVs means there are fewer trailers and caravans on our roads I doubt most people will care.
There is no denying that an EV is worse than an ICE car in some situations. What is surprising is that we seem to spend all of our time discussing those situations and hardly ever talk about the ways in which they are better.
There are a good few EVs around that can tow over 2 tonnes (and hit 120 miles range). You won't get them for £30-40 k though!last time I looked there was no EV that could achieve that.
TBH, i'd have bought a smaller car, and rented something to tow with three or four times a year.
I'm just about to decide on my new car. 90% sure I'm going for the Megane. My average work journey is about 125 miles, so I will cover 80% of my journeys on a single charge.
Sensible attitude. Wish I could do the same 😀 I keep trying to focus on the 80% (probably more like over 90%) of journeys where a car with a WLTP range of 250 miles would be just fine, but I can’t stop myself thinking about the other 10%. So I end up looking at cars with WLTP ranges over 350 miles, which are all bigger and/or more expensive than I really want and I’m back to square one.
It wouldn’t really be an issue if I were just looking at leasing a car for a few years. It’s because I tend to buy cars and keep them for 6-7 years that I tend to worry about what the alternatives might look like in a few years and whether I would regret buying my “short range” car. But that’s crazy really. I don’t have a crystal ball and either it does the job I want or it doesn’t. If it does the job then it will still do the job years from now and it shouldn’t matter what else is out there. I don’t care that there are better cars than my current one. It does the job so I’m happy with it. But then it does cover 100% of what I want and not just 90%. As long as you ignore the fact that I want it not to spew toxic fumes as I drive along of course 😀
Personally, I hope we never have EVs that can tow large trailers or caravans. They will be massively over powered for what most people need. Let those who really want to tow a large object hang on to their ICE cars (or even buy an ICE car specifically for towing). There aren't enough of them for it to matter and if the transition to EVs means there are fewer trailers and caravans on our roads I doubt most people will care.
There is no denying that an EV is worse than an ICE car in some situations. What is surprising is that we seem to spend all of our time discussing those situations and hardly ever talk about the ways in which they are better.
I kinda think it's the opposite, towing is really inefficient so so that makes it a prime target for being powered by renewables.
Anyway there are already quite a lot of EVs that can tow more than 2 tonnes. Audi A6, Tesla Model X, BMW IX etc. I think depending on where the charging port is located, charging might be rather a ball ache for a long trip though.
However, the folks that claim there is no downside and anyone who has a different attitude to travel them are wrong don't help.
There are no downsides for many people. If you have home charging, and if you never tow (which is the huge majority of people, just try buying a car with a towbar to find out just how many cars don't have one), then there aren't any. If you don't tow you don't need to worry about people who do.
I keep trying to focus on the 80% (probably more like over 90%) of journeys where a car with a WLTP range of 250 miles would be just fine, but I can’t stop myself thinking about the other 10%
Are you towing? Or is it bikes and roof boxes?
why don't they make powered caravans
The technology has been suppressed by Big Campervan?
I'm just about to decide on my new car. 90% sure I'm going for the Megane. My average work journey is about 125 miles, so I will cover 80% of my journeys on a single charge.
Sensible attitude. Wish I could do the same 😀 I keep trying to focus on the 80% (probably more like over 90%) of journeys where a car with a WLTP range of 250 miles would be just fine, but I can’t stop myself thinking about the other 10%. So I end up looking at cars with WLTP ranges over 350 miles, which are all bigger and/or more expensive than I really want and I’m back to square one.
It wouldn’t really be an issue if I were just looking at leasing a car for a few years. It’s because I tend to buy cars and keep them for 6-7 years that I tend to worry about what the alternatives might look like in a few years and whether I would regret buying my “short range” car. But that’s crazy really. I don’t have a crystal ball and either it does the job I want or it doesn’t. If it does the job then it will still do the job years from now and it shouldn’t matter what else is out there. I don’t care that there are better cars than my current one. It does the job so I’m happy with it. But then it does cover 100% of what I want and not just 90%. As long as you ignore the fact that I want it not to spew toxic fumes as I drive along of course 😀
suspect there are a lot of people thinking along similar lines
re the two bar thing, I was after a byd sealion 7, until the Towbar cost was £2k and no roof rails. I only want to put a bike rack on, or the roof bike rails. Couldn’t get the two bar option on Tusker, it’s only on VAG cars as far as I can see, but I haven’t checked all cars.
Re caravans etc, is there a move for heavy commercial machinery to go EV, if they do, then it’s surely only a matter of time before this makes it way back into cars capable of towing, or EV motor homes ?
I quite like what Kia are doing with the pv5, with a potential camper model.
Are you towing? Or is it bikes and roof boxes?
If that was directed at me, then neither. It is just a case of a shorter range car requiring me to stop more frequently than I'd like on a long journey.
I realise it doesn't necessarily mean the overall journey is any longer in theory (it may just be more frequent but shorter stops). The total time for charging depends more on efficiency (which is better for smaller cars) and charging speed (which doesn't seem to be that closely linked to range) than it does on the actual range (which becomes less important the longer the journey). But having to stop more often than you want is still a pain as every stop involves a bit of extra faff.
To be honest, I probably wouldn't quite consider an EV for a personal car right now, but for a company car it makes sense. However, the Megane was really nice to drive. The instant shove and the refinement were a real surprise. I'm a petrol head, and I appreciate all sorts of cars from a base spec Fiesta to hypercars. EV's have their place and the tech and infrastructure keeps improving. Yes, they still don't work for many people, but for lots of people they do. We have a Kuga that we use for towing a small 2 berth caravan and doing bike duties, so the EV will mostly be for work only. I know that's an extremely privileged position to be in.