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To be fair the currently released iD7 probably started development years ago before all the complaints and it'd be far too late to change it now.
Maybe hiding them all might prevent it?
[DrP places order for Volvo ex30 on this basis.....]
LOL
DrP
the excuse for all-touch appears to be cost, but I don't buy it. You can buy a little replacement bank of 4 buttons for my car for £35 (direct from the manufacturer), which I'm sure they're not losing money on. There's a little wiring needed, but lets say £50 all in for 4 buttons.
Most people would be happy with touchscreen for most car settings (things like whether you want all the doors to unlock when you unlock one, switching dash from mph to kmph, that kinda thing) but probably want buttons/switches for basic HVAC (where its pointing, what temperature, how fast), basic audio (volume, next track, previous track, pause) and a couple of other bits and bobs. Lets say £200 of buttons all in
sure, £200 times a million cars is a lot, but losing sales on 500,000 cars because you're lacking them is surely worse
Has anyone seen some of the news about new battery tech coming through? I wonder if this is also causing folk to hold off on purchasing a new EV.
The problem with solid state batteries is it's quite a different manufacturing process so either needs new gigafactories built or existing ones converted but (unless it's changed recently) there's already a shortage of conventional li-ion battery manufacturing capacity so it wouldn't make much economic sense to cease production and convert a factory (all a bit chicken and egg really).
5lab
the excuse for all-touch appears to be cost, but I don’t buy it. You can buy a little replacement bank of 4 buttons for my car for £35 (direct from the manufacturer), which I’m sure they’re not losing money on. There’s a little wiring needed, but lets say £50 all in for 4 buttons.
I drive a regular VW Passat, had an ID4 for a bit as a rental recently, I think six years between them, and the interface has actually gone backwards. I have regular buttons on the wheel for skip tracks, change volume, cruise, etc - they work. The ID4, it's the same basic layout (updated to make it slightly less intuitive and more awkward...), but haptic touch. I had to press a "button" 3/4 times, nothing happening, and eventually it would work, other times id brush it and it would change something. Staggeringly bad. They could have saved millions by just leaving it alone and not changing it.
Ioniq 5 owner here… all the controls you need on a regular basis have their own dedicated dashboard/steering wheel buttons, including climate, Nav, maps etc. Plus there are 3 essentially blank buttons that can be programmed to do whatever you want (from a long list.) I hardly ever have to go into the menu. Out of all the modern cars I’ve driven I have to say it’s the best combo of ‘tabletM vs ‘physical’ button combo, it just works for me. As others have said, the voice command thing works pretty well too, once you’ve learned what can be controlled by voice it’s even easier. A HUD is the icing on the cake for essential info and navigation directions without having to avert your gaze from the road.
the excuse for all-touch appears to be cost, but I don’t buy it. You can buy a little replacement bank of 4 buttons for my car for £35 (direct from the manufacturer), which I’m sure they’re not losing money on. There’s a little wiring needed, but lets say £50 all in for 4 buttons.
I seem to remember the contributor whose job it is to design these things is and whose car we've probably discussed telling us that it is a cost issue so I'd be inclined to 'buy' it (I hate that phrase).
And of course, it's not just the physical making of switches. It's the design of said switches, the testing of the materials, fitting them in to all the surrounding bits of plastic, focus group research, etc etc etc. A touch screen is a one-off thing, all touch screens are the same, and all you have to do is program buttons on it. You can also change the buttons retrospectively via software updates if you want to add features etc.
£50 for four buttons that have already gone through the design process, vs £50 for a tablet that does ALL the functions and features for your car still seems like good value to me, from the manufacturer point of view.
Why are folk constantly adjusting their HVAC?
Because you get hot when stressed, which happens a lot when driving. Because the lady in the car is having a hot flush, and wants to adjust it against what everyone else is wanting. Because it's all misting up when you get in the car soaked wet through and freezing cold, so you wack it up then need to turn it down again mid-journey. Loads of reasons to be constantly adjusting the heating on a journey and that's when the systems work effectively, which they usually don't as mentioned above.
I'm dreading the day I have to deal with this! I only drive our car once or twice a month. I'll never be able to remember a menu system at that rate!
Flaperon
If we see the idiot-truck in the UK I’ll eat my Model 3. I wonder how many people who would have considered a Tesla are actively put off by the fact he seems to have gone completely off his trolley over the last few years?
He's firmly filed in the Dyson/Wetherspoons "not getting my money" group, yeah
stingmered
Full Member
Ioniq 5 owner here…
Which one have you got? I'm quite tempted to try and stretch to a second hand one, but the real range of the smaller battery doesn't look like it's that good. Do you know if all variants come with lane centring (as opposed to "lane keep") as standard or is that an add on? Is there anything essential that I need to be trying to make sure it comes with? (for example I'd always say try and get an ID3/ID4 with matrix headlights, they're brilliant).
Which one have you got
I’ve no idea what is standard and what is extra. I got it through a work scheme (Tusker) as a pre-ordered vehicle. The model is (just looked it up…) Ioniq 5 Ultimate (tech pack) 77kWh RWD. Trips off the tongue, that does… The real range was around 305-310 miles in the summer, probably dropped down to around 270 now it’s colder, suspect that will drop much further when we hit the minus figures. That’s at 100% charge, and we obviously run it to 80% max, which is fine for us. The only thing I’m slightly disappointed in is the full beam headlights. They’re not quite as good as the Kodiaq we had, an annoyingly they don’t have auto levelling or dynamic auto assist (ie the lights change direction with the steering wheel input.) I live in a rea with lots of unlit roads so it’s noticeable. Annoying but not the end of the world. Otherwise, it’s a cracking car.
Saw an Ora Funky Cat in the car park today. Noticed because the screen was showing ambient wavy colour video. Wasn't charging either.
Still really enjoying our iX1. It just does a very good job of being a comfortable and relaxing car to drive.
For anyone looking at a salary sacrifice, specifically Tusker, I noticed they've got some great deals on the iX1 atm. Same spec as mine (M-Sport) for over £100 less per month. Look at the 'coming soon' section.
I've had an EV now for a couple of months, and while I love many aspects of it, I wonder if it's a technology that's really ready for the masses? It seems to require a good deal of facility with apps etc, and knowing how to respond to glitches at chargers, be that at home or at public chargers, as well as software issues in the car itself . I'll guess that most of us "early adopters" have self selected, but that when non-IT-savvy folk are forced to buy EV there will be problems.
This reflection is inspired by an issue with Intelligent Octopus and Ohme, wherein despite supposedly having a "smart" schedule the charger wants to continue filling the battery to 100% and beyond. This isn't a user error - stacks of people have the same issue just now - but I wonder what will happen when non-IT-middle-managers-from-STW have to grapple with these bugs?
We have recently purchased a 2021Kona Electric and loving it so far.
It keeps the Zoe company on the drive but with longer range and the capability to take a roof rack and towbar.
We have fitted a roof tent for Highland weekends!
but I wonder what will happen when non-IT-middle-managers-from-STW have to grapple with these bugs?
As with everything, the bugs will be fixed, life will get easier otherwise people won't buy them.
We've already standardised charger connectors, you only need a contactless card for most of them now and I suspect it will be all of them before long. You dont really need the apps now. Most cars will pop up and take you to a charger when you get low.
The cars are still selling well.
This reflection is inspired by an issue with Intelligent Octopus and Ohme, wherein despite supposedly having a “smart” schedule the charger wants to continue filling the battery to 100% and beyond. This isn’t a user error – stacks of people have the same issue just now – but I wonder what will happen when non-IT-middle-managers-from-STW have to grapple with these bugs?
would a luddite even be aware? there's plenty of folk driving around with check engine lights on, the car keeps moving so they just don't have to worry.
things will move a lot in the upcoming 12 years. Remember 12 years ago the first-gen leaf was just about ready for sale in the uk.
This reflection is inspired by an issue with Intelligent Octopus and Ohme, wherein despite supposedly having a “smart” schedule the charger wants to continue filling the battery to 100% and beyond.
Is this the issue where the user sets the car to let's say +70%, expecting the battery to stop charging at 70%? When what is happening is the charger is adding 70% to the battery's current percentage of charge? So let's say the battery was already at 50% , adding +70% would take it to 120%. When what is required is +20% to get the charge to 70%?
🤔
Is this the issue where the user sets the car to let’s say +70%, expecting the battery to stop charging at 70%?
No - that's simple user error. This is a bug whereby it just keeps charging and charging until the universe runs out of electrons. Other recent problems include adding negative miles to the range. If you're used to dealing with tech stuff you can avoid panic and follow a debugging routine, but I don't think it's mass market ready.
Similarly the many car software glitches that require you to do some working around or debugging. Maybe these things will become reflexes for drivers, but right now I think they're not.
Or maybe I'm being kind of a snob and people are getting along perfectly well!
Remember the Ohme/Intelligent octopus combo is still in Beta testing. It isn't perfect yet, but compared to my previous BG interface...
You can also game the system. I often plug in the car at 9PM, tell Ohme i need 200 miles added by 4AM, and know Ohme will start the charge immediately, giving me cheap electricity for the whole house, so I can turn on the dishwasher/washing machine/heated blankets well before bedtime.
You can also game the system
Yes I started charging the car just when I knew I'd be cooking dinner. Maybe it was karma getting its revenge 🙂
Better than Kormas revenge.........
Havent read the full thread but currently have a big battery Kona which is brilliant car but is just too small for us so looking to sell and thinking of getting something on my work scheme, I have the choice of leaseplan or tusker.
I have noticed good deals on the eqc but feel like it might be a step back in range/efficiency and also looked at model Y which has a towbar option which is a bonus
Anyone own or tested any of the above?
I've got a Model Y. It's giant inside. I went for the bottom of the range 242 mile version. I commute 110 miles roundtrip 2 days a week so that's fine. Build quality is as good as the Audi I had before and I've had no problems adjusting to the touchscreen controls and speedo (I use cruise control pretty much all the time including 30 limits, same as I did with the Audi).
I’ve got a Model Y.
Build quality is as good as the Audi I had before
Must have got a lot better since my Model 3 was built then (2020).
Mine isn’t even as good as the Jaguar I had before, and that was built by Brummies who’d been in the pub all day.
I’m just leaving this here for anyone who, like me, couldn’t find elsewhere any information on whether they could bung a bike in the boot of a VW ID.Buzz. This is a medium Nomad and the rear seats are slid forward, but it fits about the same as it did in my SWB Vito.
So far, so good on the switch to electricity.<br />
Must have got a lot better since my Model 3 was built then (2020).
Yep, built in China in a brand new factory instead of California in an old factory.
model Y which has a towbar option which is a bonus
And is actually capable of towing things bigger than a Bob bike trailer.
PCH at about £550 a month with a sensible deposit. A step change cheaper than the EV6 I looked into.
Not that I'm in the market immediately but how do you deal with getting towbars on leased/pch vehicles? I've usually bought older cars with loans so you just pitch up at the local fitter and job done.
I have noticed good deals on the eqc
I've just bought a used eqc, only had it a week, so can't really comment much on range yet, b2ut it's a lovely place to sit, super refined and quiet, pretty quick ( but I'm used to fast cars so it's not a novelty)
It's drives nicely enough, definitely errs more towards comfort rather than sporty though.
As an suv I can't fault it, will see more about range later this week, I expect to get About 200miles out of it over a long mostly motorway trip but will see. The official wltp range is 260miles.
I doubt the range/efficiency would be as good as a model y with a similar size battery
The time has come to replace our ancient diesel Focus. I've been trying to weigh up our options wrt EVs and wondered if anyone can comment or confirm/refute my workings. My default is to buy an 8 to 10 year old low mileage diesel with low/zero VED and good fuel economy and keep it running until the bitter end. We do about 20k miles a year and would need a minimum EV range of 140ish miles - ideally more meaning even a new Nissan Leaf would be a big compromise.
Options 1:
- Buy an 8 year old diesel with about 60k miles on it for approx £6k
- Devaluation: Assume it will run for 6 years so devaluation avg £1k per year
- Fuel: 20k miles per year assuming 50mpg and £1.60/liter is £2.9k on fuel per year
- VED: is zero or close to zero
- Insurance: around £350 a year
- Maintenance: mot etc, obviously a total crapshoot but with an oldish car a minimum of £500 a year - may get unlucky though with a few big ones!
- Average annual cost over 6 years is approx £5k
Option 2:
- It seems like any EV would need to be quite new in order to achieve a respectable range. Looking at e.g an MG5 estate 2022 at £16k. A nissan Leaf would be a few grand cheaper but much less range.
- Devaluation: It would have circa 140k miles on it after 6 years (do they even keep running that long or do they stop working the day after the warranty ends like most modern electronics?) Would an average of £2k per year make sense?
- Fuel: we would be able to charge at home overnight 99% of the time so 2k miles at say 3 miles/kwh and using 10p/kw is approx £700
- VED: this will become £180 a year from 2025 so loses to the old diesel (wtf!)
- Insurance around £500
- Maintenance: I really have no clue on this but I would hope a lot less than the old diesel. Is there a danger that it would be expensive due to having to use specialist non local garages? I guess with such a new car the cost would be very low for several years of it so lets say £250 average?
- Average annual cost over 6 years is approx £3.75k
Option 3:
- Use salary sacrifice via Tusker (higher rate tax). Prices include insurance and maintainance. Prices seem pretty daft and I would be nervous of rip off charges for wear and tear etc however:
- A Nissan Leaf over 3 years is £265 per month = £3.2k per year plus fuel = £3.9k
- An MG5 however is a big jump up at about £370 = £4.4k per year plus fuel = £5.1k
It seems that an EV wins hands down ( with the added bonus of getting to drive a newish car and saving the planet) The above workings all assume that fuel and energy prices stay roughly equivalent. Thanks for any input!
dont forget the costs of getting a fast charger installed at home....seems to be between £800 & £1000 for a simple install
True, though assuming we stick with EVs from now on that cost will become insignificant when averaged over the chargers lifespan.
It seems like any EV would need to be quite new in order to achieve a respectable range. Looking at e.g an MG5 estate 2022 at £16k. A nissan Leaf would be a few grand cheaper but much less range.
Don't get a Leaf. The technology is shit - there is no cooling on the battery which causes problems. It's also not great on motorways, the ride is choppy and uncomfortable. It's pretty good around town though and on A roads. At that price I would recommend a Hyundai Ioniq EV (as distinct from the Ioniq 5 which are good but a lot more expensive) or a Kona if you want longer range. The Ioniq Premium SE has leather and cooled seats, would feel a bit more er.. premium, than the.. Premium.
Fuel: we would be able to charge at home overnight 99% of the time so 2k miles at say 3 miles/kwh and using 10p/kw is approx £700
Our Ioniq averaged 4.7 over the two years we had it - usually 4.5 ish on the motorway, worst motorway trip about 4.3, and the best suburban trips were as much as 7. It's not a perfect car but it's pretty good and I miss it despite the irritating infotainment.
You should be paying 7.5p/kWh for home charging, with those numbers you are looking at 1.5p a mile so your 18,000 miles from home would cost you £288 and the extra fast charging for 2,000 miles maybe £150
Hyundai really are very efficient and the range estimates are quite realistic. You cannot buy new Ioniq EVs any more but there's a new Kona. Or, if you can stretch, the Ioniq 6 is very lovely. I'm mostly looking at tow cars, but I quite fancy the iD3 for a less big option.
Oh and there are Kia equivalents which are basically the same, like the e-Niro.
Is there a danger that it would be expensive due to having to use specialist non local garages?
No - the EV drivetrain needs no servicing at all. The final drive gearbox on my Leaf needs new oil every 60k miles but it's a super simple job, just drain and refill. Brake fluid as normal and the cabin filter are the only other regular consumables. Brakes may need changing but they last a really long time compared to traditional cars as they get used very little. Then it's stuff like shock absorbers, CV joint boots etc that are the same as any other car.
Ive got 2 cars through Tusker, you get a free charger installed by them, so I now have 2 chargers!!!
I took a short term rental deal on an MG5 when waiting for my delayed Ioniq5, and it really opened my eyes to the brands EV offerings. My wife changed jobs, so her XC40 EV through Tusker had to go back. We replaced it with an MG4 at about £310/month. We love it - good range(220-240), really nice to drive. About Golf/Focus size too.
Thanks for the responses, that Ioniq does look a lot better than the leaf for not a lot more money so will be on the shortlist. However, our current Focus has about 380 liters of boot space which we find a bit small so our ideal car would have more - that was what led me first to look at the Leaf with its 420L then the MG5 estate.
Some extra info that may affect car selection: It will be our main daily family car, though for long road trips/holidays we would use the van. It will also be used for 3 days a week doing a 100 mile round trip commute on mix of A roads and dual carriageway. We do almost no urban driving as we live rurally.
On rural roads, if you end up driving in 50 and 40 limits this has a significant positive impact on your efficiency, as do the kind of roads where you end up behind lorries/grannies doing 50, as compared to open roads. Windy and/or steep roads can reduce your efficiency a bit, but dual carriageways and motorways are the worst because your speed is higher. If you only have shorter sections, driving at 65 or 60 can have a big impact on efficiency and whilst it feels like you are dawdling, a 10 mile stretch at 60 doesn't really have much of an effect on your journey time in reality.
Re boot space I would take a look at the cars in person because overall volume is not a very useful statistic. An extra 20l up against the roof is not that useful when you want to carry a dog, for example.
Very true re boot space. Figures seem to give space up to the level of the seat backs which I guess means higher seat backs would up the boot space on paper without having any practical effect. The most important thing is the vertical space up to the rear window/roof really assuming you remove the parcel shelf.
I can't imagine my partner keeping to 60mph on her motorway commute so would have to factor that into the range requirements! I think the 'Highway' figure for range is given at 70mph?
I think the ‘Highway’ figure for range is given at 70mph?
US figures have a 'highway' or 'city' component, we used to have urban/extra-urban/combined, but they were poor because the extra-urban didn't include any actual motorway speeds and combined was a fixed ratio of urban/extra-urban.
Now we just have WTLP which is meant to be more representative of the average drive, but as you've pointed out your drive isn't average. My Ioniq could meet or exceed the WTLP range, and in the worst case it only lost maybe 10% in winter time. Other cars seem to lose more, but I'm not sure if people are whacking heating up to 24 degrees all the time or what. We get close to the WTLP in a 60k mile ex-taxi Leaf in summer, and right now we're on about 90% of it but others report a much greater drop. It also has a heat pump and I have fitted good tyres with high efficiency. That seems to be making a big difference in our range.
Going over 70mph has a big range penalty, but inconsistent speed has less of an impact than it did in an ICE. Honestly 60mph is not necessary unless you are trying to make it home and you don't want to make that final stop at motorway prices!
The most important thing is the vertical space up to the rear window/roof really assuming you remove the parcel shelf.
A minor point - the Leaf has a traditional hard parcel shelf that needs to be removed and stored if you want to fill the boot higher, but the Ioniq had a roll-away soft cover. And even if you wanted to remove it there was a storage space under the floor that you could use. Or if you really want to maximise space you can remove the floor for a fair few extra litres.
Personal experience is that Audi's have great quality but not very great reliability, and garage bills fresh from Satan's backside.
I saw a high mileage 3 year old Polestar 2 come up for £22k - that's the cheapest I've seen a tow car come up. At that price, we would actually save monthly expenditure if we went for that as an only car. This is progress.
I think don't think a Polestar would suit you Molgrips - I have one (granted it's LRDM) and it isn't very efficient.
I think don’t think a Polestar would suit you Molgrips – I have one (granted it’s LRDM) and it isn’t very efficient.
I need a tow car so I'll have to take what I can get. The most efficient car that can also tow enough (>1200kg) is probably an Ioniq 6 but they're still new; an Ioniq 5 is probably the best option otherwise but they are still north of £26k. They can supposedly eke out 4 m/kWh if you're careful.