Salary sacrifice for company cars used to be a clear tax dodge so they brought in BIK tax (a long time ago) to make it comparable with leasing your own. The tax break for EVs is there to promote cleaner motoring (from which we all benefit). I think the lease companies are helping themselves to a good chunk of that though.
It does work out well if you want to lease a new car; however I don't think it stacks up well against buying used. It does against buying new though (if you're keeping) because whilst you end up paying for the car (probably more) anyway you are getting part of it tax free and it's also spread over a longer term, assuming you finance the purchase after the lease term.
There is a large convenience aspect to it as well. I never own new cars, the newest I’ve ever bought was 12months old.
We run one car that we own (and a campervan) and the all inclusive, hassle free lease takes care of the other. It does cost a bit more than we would spend otherwise - the price of convenience.
A few weeks ago I got a puncture pulling on to the drive in the evening. A couple of hours later there was a guy on my drive fitting a new tyre. The text I received said it cost £277. If I owned the car I would have probably ended up taking the wheel off myself and taking it to a tyre place and it would’ve been at least the next day before I’d sorted it.
I first decided to lease 5 years ago because I wanted to try electric but didn’t want the risk of owning anything second hand. Now I’m happier that the technology has proved itself I’d be happy to buy and may do when we replace the current petrol GTI.
On the salary sacrifice route which my next car is using. it affects other payments such as student loans, which if like most people you will never pay off anyway might be seen as a benefit.
Leasing has to be overall more costly, as you don’t get the car (usually) at the end of a lease.
Not cut and dried.
It depends on depreciation which is factored in on a lease.
I've just got a Vauxhall Grandland Ultimate EV on 18mth lease for £310 down first payment and £310 monthly.
There is no scenario I know of where it's cheaper to buy/own over the same periond. If there is let me know.
A few weeks ago I got a puncture pulling on to the drive in the evening. A couple of hours later there was a guy on my drive fitting a new tyre. The text I received said it cost £277.
You don't need a lease for that - mobile tyre services are widely available. The difference is that they don't charge you £277, but they'll charge the lease company that.
There is no scenario I know of where it's cheaper to buy/own over the same periond. If there is let me know.
Per month, no, because you're effectively spreading the cost over a longer period. But you aren't paying into an asset - even a depreciating one.
That's cheap, Rone, enjoy the car. You'd have to buy second hand (which you couldn't as it's a new model) and keep the thing for many years to beat that. When I bought the Zoé I calcualted it would be four years before buying outright was cheaper than leasing. In fact buying proved the better option quicker than expected due to new car inflation and what a new lease would have cost at three years. At five and a half years it doesn't owe me a lot and I still like it. I suspect I'll be keeping it years.
Yeah cheers Educator.
Key is to swap when it suits. I've bought cars - before depends on what deals are on offer.
Also suits my working circumstances - low miles sporadic jobs.
Lease is just mostly hassle free for me.
Yeah cheers Edukator.
Key is to swap when it suits. I've bought cars - before depends on what deals are on offer.
Also suits my working circumstances - low miles sporadic location jobs - office mountain bike commute rest of time.
Lease is just mostly hassle free for me. And I see cars as necessary hassles.
Yeah cheers Edukator.
Key is to swap when it suits. I've bought cars - before depends on what deals are on offer.
Also suits my working circumstances - low miles sporadic location jobs - office mountain bike commute rest of time.
Lease is just mostly hassle free for me. And I see cars as necessary hassles.
Yeah cheers Edukator.
Key is to swap when it suits. I've bought cars - before depends on what deals are on offer.
Also suits my working circumstances - low miles sporadic location jobs - office mountain bike commute rest of time.
Lease is just mostly hassle free for me. And I see cars as necessary hassles.
Probably wouldn't work as well for higher mileage drivers.
(God knows why this has displayed three times.)
You don't need a lease for that - mobile tyre services are widely available. The difference is that they don't charge you £277, but they'll charge the lease company that.
Oh I know I don’t, the point was that I didn’t even need to google “Mobile Tyre Fitters”. I made 1 call to the number saved in my phone and someone else sorted it.
And I’d still have to pay even if it was a bit cheaper..
So I took my polestar to Thruxton for a track day - was an absolute blast!!
I folly closed the compression damping as the track was so smooth - a tiny bit of body roll around the faster corners, but handled itself well!
Was quite a chilled experience TBH - was an open pit lane, so we'd (me and @pictonroad) do 3 or 4 laps, then come back and let us and the car cool down. Wasn't there to break any lap records, but was an experience pushing the car in a safe environment!
I had a 20 min tutor session, and he was very impressed at EV acceleration!
The next booked adventure is the 'ring in late July - want to try adn get on another track before hand though!
DrP
Any other Enyaq owners having issues with CCS chargers? My car happily charges away on the 7kw or the 22kw (at 11kw) using my own cable.
It doesn't seem to like the 50kw fast chargers as the charging unit keeps telling me it has failed and it should be restarted.
I called ChargePlace Scotland and the guy told me the Enyaq has an advanced computer system and I should drive the car forward and then back and stick it in park and that should sort the issue - it didn't.
Anyone else having a similar experience? If so, have you found a way to fix it?
There is no scenario I know of where it's cheaper to buy/own over the same periond. If there is let me know.
Well...I hope exciting times for me....The Energy Saving Trust Used electric vehicle loan has just opened up again over the weekend and I've got my application in and passed the first hurdle. Waiting on the final decision.
Basically, to qualify you need to live in Scotland and either have a household income below £50K or have a rural postcode.
It qualifies you to an interest free loan for a 2nd hand EV with a maximum value of £23K (that you can't top up) bought from trader not a private sale and repayments over up to 6 years. I still need to crunch the numbers once more to make sure it still makes sense but hopefully, I'll be in a position to buy in a week or 2. It's just what to buy - my needs and 'wants' list is quite long and getting it under £23k without significant milage on the clock might be a struggle.
Buying new (apart from no AWD option but appreciate that's a niche 'want') the new Renault 4 looks great. Might not be as 'cool' as the 5, but it'll tick a lot of boxes for a lot of people.
OK, EV fans, sell me your EV 😀 Not literally (unless the price is really good). But I'm supposed to be getting a charge point installed this week but am still no closer to finding an EV I actually want to buy. Since the answer to most "what should I buy" questions on here is "what I have" I thought I'd give you the chance to persuade me that your EV is really what I want.
I tend to buy cars outright (rather than lease) and keep them for around 7 years and around 150,000 miles, so that's the aim here. Total cost of ownership over those seven years is more important to me than initial sticker price.
When looking to replace my car I usually start by listing the things I most like about my current car (i.e. things I am keen to keep) and then add in the new things I've seen that I think I would like. So, starting with what I want to keep from the current car:
- Reliability. In 150,000 miles it has never once failed to start or to get me where I want to go. Plugging my phone in to access CarPlay (which takes care of all my navigation and entertainment needs) has also never failed. Doors open when they are supposed to. Alarm never goes off unnecessarily etc. Basically, everything just works. This is the main thing that puts me off any new car to be honest as they all seem to be so unreliable.
- Goes anywhere I want to go. Combination of decent ground clearance, decent tyres and AWD means I don't get stuck when it snows (as it still does up here in Aberdeenshire) and I can get down any farm track I might want to use to access a trail.
- Wipe clean seats/surfaces. No problem if I'm covered in mud after a ride or run. Ditto the dogs. Just wipe down with a damp cloth if it gets too manky.
- Size (4.3m long, 1.8m wide and 1.6m high) is just about perfect. Big enough for anything I need to carry but not a pain on country lanes or parking.
- Doesn't beep at me unless I really am about to hit something.
- Adaptive cruise control that just works and doesn't brake for no apparent reason.
- Hatchback with flat floor so dogs can jump in the back easily.
- Colour. Actually has some i.e. not black, white or grey.
Stuff I've seen I'd like to have on my next car:
- A reliable app that will allow me to warm the car up from the comfort of my house/office or out on the trail. Don't need lots of functions though and reliability beats functions as long as it can do the basics.
- Good sound system. This along with comfy seats are probably top of my lists of wants.
- 360 degree cameras look quite cool (although may be of limited use in practice unless there is a way to keep them clean)
- Heated windscreen washer nozzles. OK, it's only a factor on a few days a year but it always amazes me that these aren't standard on modern cars. All those safety features but you can drive around on a cold day without any way of cleaning the screen!
Range wise I'd like a guaranteed 220 mile range on the motorway in winter, so I guess that means as least 300 miles WLTP (and ideally a bit more)
So I took my polestar to Thruxton for a track day - was an absolute blast!!
What are the insurance requirements for that ? Did you have a specific policy for the day ?
You're missing a budget, Roverpig. I'll start with a Renault Scenic e-tech Esprit Alpine on a set of Michelin Cross Climates with a set of snow chains in the boot for that one day in ten years you need them, and many sets of plastic seat covers like the ones the Renault mechanics put on when they service the car. I don't own one, just a humble Zoe.
The Renault mechanics put some pink gloop in the washers which absolutely never freezes even on the coldest day of the year in Tigne.
Thanks @Edukator. Funnily enough, the Scenic is currently top of my list. Well technically the model Y seems closest to what I want buy y’know 😀
Concerns with the Scenic are (in no particular order)
- Bigger than I really want
- While I know I don’t really need AWD to cope with the snow a bit more ground clearance would be nice.
- To get the better stereo (and better/360 cameras) I’d need to go up to the iconic trim and that means light grey fabric seats. Most seat covers look pretty awful but I guess it’s not out of the question
- Concerns over durability of the motors (stories of bearing failures in the Zoe after 80k and Renault not providing the bearing as a spare part)
- A few other faults reported and Renault taking their time to fix them.
But it certainly ticks more of my boxes than most
Whilst my Hyundai bongs all over the place, we have learned to live with it - and one day a bong may save my life. It has a physical button to turn off the lane following, which you need on narrow B style roads. But other than that the lane keep assist is pretty good and it doesn't randomly brake. It sometimes brakes when it doesn't need to, like if you are on a road that curves to the left and there is a car stopped in the other lane - but in fairness, you are driving towards an obstacle. It's also not hard to override, you just keep driving and once it knows you are doing something it lets you do it.
My actual car doesn't meet your requirements though, but in general Hyundai assistance is good if a little bong happy.
Thanks @molgrips. I must admit I really like that single button in the Renaults that turns all the safety settings to your personal preferences. But reliability trumps everything and I know Hyundai/Kia have a decent reputation in that regard.
Obviously there isn’t going to be any one car that meets all my wants, or I’d have bought it by now 😀 I guess what I’m really trying to decide on is which ones I should give up on.
What are the insurance requirements for that ? Did you have a specific policy for the day ?
So cos it's a track you're not insured under your usual policy..and you can get track day insurance.. but I opted not to (which is a risk I chose to take).
It was my first track day, and actually felt safer than on the road! Everyone is going in the same direction, Thruxton has a lot of run off, and it was a very uneventful day.
I'd thoroughly recommend a track day if you're at all interested in pushing your car a bit!
DrP
I always fancied ragging my boring old Passat around a track just for a laugh, but I'd be worried about shredding the tyres. More so on the Merc where they are £180 each
But reliability trumps everything and I know Hyundai/Kia have a decent reputation in that regard.
There are only 3 issues I've heard of with these cars. My Ioniq and the earlier Konas, and their Kia equivalents have an undersized 12V battery and it can expire a bit early. It wasn't an issue for me as the dash warned me so I replaced it at 4 years cheap and easy.
The bigger issue is the ICCU (charging and power control) units on Ioniq 5s. There is a problem on models up to I think 2025 when a new part becomes available. It seems to be a much bigger problem in the USA where they use higher current AC chargers but it still happens here. Something like 1% of cars. They are being repaired under warranty but the biggest problem is lack of availability of the part.
So if youre considering used vs new in Hyundai/Kia bear that in mind.
The bigger issue is the ICCU (charging and power control) units on Ioniq 5s.
Is it the same unit as Kia use? Mate at work didn’t have his car for about 2 months whilst they waited for the part.
I got mine changed under warranty. Took about an hour
Is it the same unit as Kia use?
I think so. It's all over the forums. But like I say, I think they've changed the part for 2025. Don't take my word for it though, do your own research, so to speak 🙂
it still happens here. Something like 1% of cars
There are 3 EV6's in the company fleet and they've all had this issue. It's not too big a deal when spares are available; thi swas an issue earlier this year.
And I4's all have heater issues. Whatcha gonna do?
it still happens here. Something like 1% of cars
There are 3 EV6's in the company fleet and they've all had this issue. It's not too big a deal when spares are available; thi swas an issue earlier this year.
And I4's all have heater issues. Whatcha gonna do?
do you mean id4’s and heater problems, cabin heating or heat pump ?
was just thinking of ordering one
I always fancied ragging my boring old Passat around a track just for a laugh, but I'd be worried about shredding the tyres. More so on the Merc where they are £180 each
I'd suggest doing it! I was worried it would be a track packed with loads of aggressive drivers, but for the most part the treack felt empty. I did an 'open pit lane' where you jsut come adn go, rather than a fixed 20 min session.
Yeah, tyre wear will be accelerated,but you won't shred through a whole set by any means.
DrP
Yeah, tyre wear will be accelerated,but you won't shred through a whole set by any means.
Pfffffttt.... were you even trying ? 🤣
LOL!
I was trying...and there was a fair bit of tyre squeal...but MY trying might be different from yours!!!!
I did actually buy a second set of wheels and tyres, to save my expensive all season tyres!
DrP
So, I've now got a charge point at home. No EV yet, but we'll come back to that later no doubt. Just wanted to share my experiences with getting the charge point installed by ChrgedEV as they were quite comically awful from start to finish. No that we've quite finished yet as you'll see.
It started when I went onto the web site of my electricity supplier (OVO) and clicked on the link to get an EV charger installed. This was sometime around the beginning of November. So it's only taken around 7 months 😀
I thought getting my electricity supplier to do the install would make sense as they know all about my supply, but of course the link on their site really just passes you on to the company (ChargedEV) that they have contracted to do the install.
It started off easily enough. I had to choose a charger, so that involved a bit of reading about chargers, but there were only a couple of options and I chose the Ohme Home Pro as it seemed to do what I wanted and reviews were generally positive. Then came the bit where they wanted all sorts of photos and details.
I didn't have time to complete that at the time, so saved the application for later. Over the next ten days or so ChargedEV contacted me by phone, text or email on an almost daily basis to remind me that the application wasn't complete and to ask if I needed help. I kept pointing out that I'd get round to it when I had time and eventually they stopped bugging me.
A week or so later I got round to taking all the photos and providing all the data then hit submit. I got the automated response confirming submission and saying they'd be in touch in a few days after reviewing the application. But a week went by and no reply, so I went back on the site and hit submit again. Same message and same lack of response. Did this a few more times and eventually got an email apologising for the slow response and asking me to call them as they had some more questions.
That was my first (and only) interaction with their phone system, which appears to be totally useless. I got the usual "all our agents are busy" message and an option to either "press 1" and they'd call me back or to hang on the phone. Since I didn't know if I'd be free later, I elected to wait. And wait. And wait. And ... eventually they said they couldn't connect the call so I'd just have to press 1. I did that and they promised to call back sometime in the next 24 hours! Sure enough they tried to call the next day and of course I was busy. They tried again to be fair and eventually I was able to speak with a person who said they needed photos of my oil supply.
I provided the photos and after a few days (and a few missed calls) they got back to say that my oil supply needed earth bonding and they could add this to the quote for £100. I couldn't really see why the supply needed earth bonding. The tank is plastic. There is a copper pipe supplying the oil to the house, but it is covered in plastic and runs underground. If the plastic is intact then it's insulated and if it's not then it is earthed anyway as it is underground. But I guess they know the rules so I accepted that and we agreed a date for the install. Yay !
About a week before the original installation date I got a call to say the engineer for my area had left at short notice so they would have to reschedule but didn't know when that would be. OK, these things happen and about a month later they got back in touch and we agreed a new installation date (yesterday).
Then about two weeks before the new date I get another call to say that I can't actually have the Ohme charger as it isn't "part of my package" even though it was one of only two that they originally gave me to choose from. I can only assume that their agreement with OVO has changed in the intervening months. They gave me two choices on the pone but didn't know any details about either, so I had to go do some more reading and eventually went for the Indra Smart Lux as it is compatible with solar (which we might want to add in future) and was the only option with a 10m tethered cable (which the Ohme had).
Over the next couple of weeks I had various reminders to tell me that I hadn't paid the invoice, which was due 7 days before the installation. I kept pointing out that the only invoice I had was for the Ohme charger, which they said I couldn't have, so I'd need a new invoice. Eventually a day before the installation date they sent the correct invoice, but didn't include a link to actually pay it and the link they had sent previously still took me to the old invoice for the wrong charger. I asked for a payment link, but no reply.
Yesterday the installers turned up. The installation went OK, but they didn't do the earth bonding for the oil supply as they said it wasn't necessary!
This morning I got two emails. One to say that the installation was complete and another asking me to pay an invoice for the original Ohme charger (which they didn't install) and oil bonding (which they didn't do). I've asked for them to send me a correct invoice and a link to pay it, but so far, no reply.
So, I currently have a shiny new Indra Smart Lux charger, which I haven't paid for 😀
By the way, I still can't fully understand how the OVO Charge Anytime tariff works. I dare say it will make sense once I actually get an EV and start to play with it, but the information online isn't exactly clear.
I understand the basic idea. Unlike, say, Octopus where you get a cheap rate overnight for the whole house in exchange for paying slightly more during the day, with OVO you can charge the EV at 7p/kwh at anytime (hence the name) and your regular price/kwh stays the same. The "catch" being that you only get the 7p rate for your EV charging, not the whole house.
So you plug in the EV, say when you need it to be ready and let it sort out the best time to charge. Sounds simple enough. But what's to stop you just saying that you want it ready at a time where it would have to start charging immediately and for the whole period? It says you can get that 7p rate anytime and I can't see anything in the T&Cs that would stop you doing this. But then there is also the option to "charge immediately" at your standard rate, so why would you ever do that and why is that even an option if you can "charge anytime" for 7p/kwh?
£7995 gets you a 20 plate Hyundai ionic near me. (Independent garage north Manchester.) Not sure of the mileage but it looks like the premium se version
This car had recently disappeared from view at the dealership, I wondered if it had been shifted to the back but I saw it this evening driving locally so it looks like someone bought it.
Anyone got a Ford explorer and able to share their experience of it?
Have been offered a brilliant deal on one, apart from googling the car and I know it’s an id4 underneath, can’t find my reason not to go for it. It’s a pretty generic ev, drives ok etc.
the only thing I can see is Ford aren’t exactly selling many at all.
Got an Enyaq (which is an id4 with different clothes on)...it is ok, I'm happy driving it but the interior is too light for mountain biking so make sure it is dark interior.
Only other complaint is the range, but I couldn't afford the bigger capacity battery, I'd suggest going for the bigger capacity one and it should be spot on (well for me anyway)...
Thanks. I don’t think the interior is mtb friendly, though it’s rated for towing, so can put a Towbar on for the bike rack, so that’s good.
It’s the Extended Range 77kWh RWD Premium, so most of the toys and the range seems pretty good
I’m sure this has been covered before in the preceding 00’s of pages - but I’ll ask anyway - is a heat pump a must have ?
Deal I’ve been offered is for a car without a heat pump, bit disappointing but there it is.
Yes re heat pump, as much for the battery preconditioning as the range improvement - I didn't and in winter the reduction in charging speed at rapid chargers from 150-225kw down to 50-85 max is frustrating.
is a heat pump a must have ?
Can't offer real world experience as still an EV virgin hoping to pop cherry in the next few weeks. But am on the search too.
Here is my thinking....
I want one but....
- I'm told it makes 10% difference in the right conditions.....Well for 3 months of the year my average commute to work is in -3 deg, and home the average temp is 0 deg. So I reckon I live in the sort of place where 'right conditions' is a thing.
- But most of my days will be a 55miles round trip on back country roads so the improvement in range won't make the journey possible or impossible.
- And if I charge at home 95%+ of the time the cost difference in leccy used probably doesn't justify the premium in cost to buy a car with one so probably doesn't make a lot of sense financially.
So it's still on the nice to have list but it's not on the must have list. I'm buying 2nd hand and I'm fussy enough with my other 'needs' and on a tight enough budget that it might have to slip unless I'm persuaded otherwise to prioritise it.
Heat pump was not a deal breaker for me.
Had a GV60 with a heat pump and an EV6 without. Difference in what is essentially the same car underneath was noticeable but not significantly so.
It’s a nice to have rather than an essential.
Having a heat pump or not is unrelated to the battery preconditioning heater which is a separate system in both of those cars. Other manufacturers may vary
It's a no from me - it seemed to only really an issue if you're making the sort of journeys in winter where the small difference in range is important. If you're charging at home most of the time then there's a small drop in cold weather efficiency without the heat pump so a few pence more cost each charge, but if the heat pump adds £££s you'd need to work out how long it'd take to recoup that.
Yes re heat pump, as much for the battery preconditioning as the range improvement - I didn't and in winter the reduction in charging speed at rapid chargers from 150-225kw down to 50-85 max is frustrating.
that would be frustrating
so mixed responses to the heat pump question
If I was speccing a new car build I’d have one, but no choice on this & I can’t tell if it’s potentially going to be a pita or not.
if it affects the charging efficiency/ speed - presumably that’s just on the fast chargers away from home
You can think of it a bit like different battery options. Most people could make do with the smaller battery option where a car has one as most days you wont need the extra range of the bigger battery and you pay a fair bit more for it. But most people tend to go for the larger battery if they can and I can't really see why they don't also spec the heat pump if possible too. It may not make a difference most days, but on the days wen it does you are going to regret not having one.
I don’t have one as it was a nearly £1k extra in my Born, that would just not pay for itself IMO so I couldn’t justify it. My daily drive is not usually more than 70miles and I only ever really charge at home so couldn’t care about improved range or charging efficiency over a few winter months. The odd long winter drive I do I need to stop and charge anyway so an extra 30\40miles or a faster top up wouldn't really change this. If you were putting in big miles regularly over winter with lots ofpublic charging you might want one. The wife’s Inster has one as standard but she barely does 20miles a day so is not really of any benefit to her either.
I've been running an iX3 since september. Doesn't have a heat pump, but does have a battery heater to precondition for charging. But the vast majority of my mileage has been local so i rarely use the preconditioner as charging at home. Just on the occassional long trips, so not sure how much difference that makes.
I can get the car to climatise before leaving (in hot or cold weather) which is nice, but has no bearing on heatpumps
Getting a heatpump would not pay for itself in my use scenario.
Don't have one and didn't think the £750 extra would be worth it. I tend to use slower chargers and in the office so no issues with a longer charge time.
Unsure what improvement on range it would make but if it is 10% then I'd be adding 18 miles to my range, so I'd still be charging the same amount of time and frequency.
I mean cars are full of things that don’t make sense economically. Fancy stereo, leather seats, sunroof etc. Why draw the line at a heat pump, which is at least useful.
lol
it’s a ford explorer through tusker. Most of the in stock cars don’t have heat pumps, apart from the byd’s. I’ll have to check if the heat pump is the only way to prime the battery ready for charging or if it does it some other clever way
its for my wife, mileage is mostly local and only one biggish trip every week, of circa 120 miles
Battery preconditioning on an Explorer does not require a heat pump , but given the above information, no matter what, the heat pump and its inclusion/exclusion is totally irrelevant to the journey profile described.
Neither does a BMW 😀
The cost differential between an ix3 and an Ev6 or an id7 was negligible, and it came w a tow hook for me thule velospace..... So.....
Ultimately putting money into a depreciating asset doesn't make sense, but if the taxman is taking some of the hit.....
And looking at your list of requirements, the ix3 meets almost all of them. So in the real world it's worth a closer look
My comment was re a 2022 ioniq 5 (same platform as gv60 and ev6) where eco pack bundle was heat pump and preconditioning. I couldn’t stretch to it at the time but wish I had.
it may well be different options or standard now and on the other two group brands.
I’m sure this has been covered before in the preceding 00’s of pages - but I’ll ask anyway - is a heat pump a must have ?
My 2017 Model S just had resistive heating. And as a 75D rather than 100D had a realistic range of about 200 miles. It was fine. Driving from Manchester to holidays in Cornwall, the Lakes, and Dundee were fine. Cambridge and Colchester runs were fine. Daily driving was no problem.
sure, driving against strong northerlies on the A1M in winter sucked a bit more out of it more rapidly but NP.
if I were buying a NEW car today I’d expect a heat pump just for the efficiency. Surprises me that several manufacturers have it as a ~£1,000 option. Still, if it was a car I liked and it had no heat pump? Not a deal breaker.
OK, I can't believe there is anybody left on here (or in the world) who wants to read more of my EV pontifications, but writing them down helps me get my thoughts in order and nobody has to read them. Plus, you keep giving me useful feedback, so it's your own fault 😀
I think I've narrowed my choice down to three (maybe four or is that five) options but there simply isn't enough information for me to make an informed choice. So I guess I'll end up picking one then regretting not getting one of the others.
As was pointed out above, a Renault scenic comes close to ticking my boxes. It has the range I think I want, I like the use of Google automotive (more frequent updates, putting the map on the driver display etc), I like that it is made in Europe and I like the single physical button that you can press to set all of the ADAS systems to your personal preference. But there are two major (and one minor) issues with it:
First, my number one requirement for a new car is something that has a good chance of doing 200,0000 miles over the next ten years without too many issues. The only EV brand that I really have any confidence could do that at the moment is Tesla. There are plenty of Teslas on the road already that have done those distances and are still going strong. Plus there are just so many Teslas on the road now that independent garages (and parts suppliers) are bound to spring up to keep those things on the road for many more years. To be honest, if it wasn't for Elon I'd probably have bought a model Y months ago. On the other hand, the history of Renault EVs doesn't inspire confidence. Plenty of stories of Zoe motors failing well before 100k and Renault refusing to supply the parts to repair them. Maybe they are better on the newer cars, but it is just too soon to know.
Second, I don't want (or need) a car that big. I much prefer smaller cars. The kids are grown up, we have narrow country lanes with awful sight lines and I just find a smaller lighter car more fun to drive. The only reason for going for a big car like the Scenic (or Model Y for that matter) is for the range. But I also know that, for around 360 days of the year I don't travel more than 150 miles in a day. So I'm having to live with a bigger car than I want just for those half a dozen days of the year where I want the longer range, which seems daft.
A Megane would be a better option for me for most of the year (and is around £7k cheaper like for like). But lots of stories of alarms going off for no reason (which would drive me mad) and already some tales of motors failing early. Plus I know that I'd regret not getting the longer range car at least a few times a year.
Then, if I'm going to accept shorter range, there are the heart vs head options. The 5 looks cool and I keep looking at a moss yellow, dual-motor Volvo EX30. Makes no sense. As expensive to buy as a Scenic, more expensive to insure, worse range than a Megane, a soundbar stereo that just can't sound as good as multiple speakers whatever badge they put on it, all the minimalism of a Tesla with much worse software (plenty of tales of drivers getting locked out of their car etc). But I love the size, think it looks great and 0-60 in 3.5s would be hilarious 😀
Oh and the minor issue with the Scenic (for anyone keeping count) is that to get the decent stereo I need to go for the iconic trim, which has pale grey fabric seats. I often jump into the car covered in mud after a long trail run or ride and often have muddy dogs with me, so I'd really much prefer black wipe clean seats (which is another tick for Tesla). I've never really understood why car reviewers make such a fuss about soft finishes in a car. I think my ideal car interior would be something I could clean with the pressure washer 😀 But I guess I could just stick on some seat covers (but know I almost certainly wont bother).
Thanks for the suggestion @susepic I don't generally care about brand or looks and don't really have anything against BMW. I think the i3 was an amazing car. But there is just something about the looks of the ix series that I can't get over. I think it is just that super aggressive looking front end, which brings to my mind all the worst stereotypes of BMW drivers. Each to their own though. They are undoubtedly good cars. As are lots of others that I have looked at and removed from my shortlist. None of them were bad cars, they just didn't quite seem to be what I was after.
To be honest, if it wasn't for Elon I'd probably have bought a model Y months ago.
My thoughts on replacing our 2022 Model Y LRAWD next year are similar.
there are lots of EV options these days, but I think your assessment of Teslas is on the mark - loads around, likely lower prices now due to the Elon factor, long track record.
They’re also fully featured compared with some other manufacturers’ offerings. Access to all of the Supercharger network, more might open up to other vehicles in time. Computer-scheduled servicing. Only service things I’ve had to deal with on our 3 and Y have been tyre wear. The S, at the time, needed a scheduled coolant change after 1 year. The following year that requirement was removed.
for me the only competing vehicle I’ve seen is the Polestar 4. And tech wise it was not as good. [Edit] New I’m undecided between the P4 and the new Model Y LRAWD (or Performance in due course). [/Edit] Used, I’d likely plump for a Tesla. Almost tempting to complete my set and get a used Model X …
forum struggle
Struggling with the ‘new’ forum still
To be honest, I think other manufacturers have caught up (and even overtaken) Tesla in terms of the driving experience. The suspension on the (second hand) Model Y, for example, is awful. For all the talk of FSD, the insistence on using exclusively video (rather than radar) sensors means the enhanced driving systems are generally worse than other manufacturers now (more phantom braking, autopilot switching off just when you need it etc). The decision to open up the supercharger network to other manufacturers, while no doubt good for revenue, takes away one of the big reasons for buying a Tesla too.
But if you want to buy a car today that will last many years of relatively high mileage then they are probably still the safest bet. If only because there are so many on the road and yes, used prices have taken a bit of a hit in the past six months too. Maybe not as much as I'd expect, but around 5% cheaper like-for-like than they were last year and lots more due to come on the used market this year as lease deals come to an end.
But then there is the facts that all my family and friends would disown me 😀
roverpig, I think in your position I'd be looking at a Kia EV3 - great tech, lots of space, 7 yr warranty, well priced.
First, my number one requirement for a new car is something that has a good chance of doing 200,0000 miles over the next ten years without too many issues.
I have a good deal of confidence in Hyundai. We've got an 82k mile car with the same range at 100% as the brand new car we had before it. They have had a big problem with the ICCUs as I said earlier but this should now be fixed on new cars. One thing that does give me faith in them is that even though my car has been out of production for I think 3 years, they are still releasing not just updates for the infotainment but new features, where it's possible.
Re the Tesla autopilot - I'm sure you've all seen the Road Runner test video?
I think other manufacturers have caught up (and even overtaken) Tesla in terms of the driving experience.
From the cars I’ve tested, not as much as I’d have expected.
I'd be interested to know in what ways you think Tesla is still ahead in terms of driving experience. The refusal to fit lidar sensors just seems to be tying a hand behind their back for no reason.
Hyundai/Kia certainly make goof EVs and I do still have searches on autotrader for both. It's all personal preferences of course, but a few things tend to put me off each time.
- The long warranty is a selling point but it is still limited to (I think) 100,000 miles. Since I do at least 20k per year that's less than 5 years in reality and most manufacturers offer what (for me) is the same 100k warranty on the battery/motors anyway. There are also stories of Hyundai/Kia being quite fussy about exactly when and where all the services were done when it comes to honouring that warranty. It's still a plus point, but I'll take a car with proven reliability over one with a long warranty any day.
- As well as the Hyundai charging issues (which I agree seem to have been fixed) there also seem to be issues with the reduction gear failing fairly early.
- I like the idea of Google automotive. I'm always going to want to use Google maps just for the live traffic and camera/crash/obstruction data. Any car that tries to force me to use the in-built navigation (e.g. to find chargers or pre-condition the battery) would be annoying. I know you can use carplay but there seem to be questions over whether the driving directions appear in the instrument cluster and/or HUD when using google (or apple etc) maps through carplay. On the Renault, for example, I know that it will display whatever map you are using through carplay on the instrument cluster.
- It's a minor point but I've never liked the interior in any Kia (with the possible exception of the EV6). All that grey/beige just says "pensioner car" to me.
- Prices on the EV3 haven't really come down far enough for me yet. It's still the "hot new thing" and I'm sure the nearly-new prices will drop a fair bit more in the next six months to year, so it would be worth waiting. It's also annoying that you need to go for the (not so cheap) top spec model to get a decent stereo and even then it's another grand if you want a heat pump. It's also not that small. OK, it's 17cm shorter than the Scenic but only about 1.5cm narrower (and still 7cm wider than my current "SUV").
The Times today reports that EVs are losing more than 50% of their value over the first 24 months. Good for us bods who buy cars second-hand.
Oh great, so we'll have another batch of YouTube videos from the pro and anti EV brigade. Both (along with most journalists) are as bad as each other in my book. Taking isolated bits of "data" out of context and trying to spin it to fit whatever narrative they are trying to push.
High EV depreciation in the first couple of years is just a natural consequence of government initiatives aimed at supporting the transition to EVs. Most new cars (EV or ICE) are either fleet/company cars or leased through a salary sacrifice. The government offers tax breaks for EVs designed to support the industry by allowing them to charge inflated prices for new EVs. It's still a bit cheaper for the consumer to lease the EV than the ICE equivalent and the manufacturer makes a higher profit on the EV than they would if they had to sell at market rates (funding their transition from ICE to EV). So everyone (except the treasury) is happy.
Once they hit the second hand market though there are no more tax breaks, so they have to sell at the market rate. Hence high depreciation. It's not news. It's just an inevitable consequence of the way the EV market is currently designed.
I'd argue that those of us looking to buy a second hand EV are not actually getting a good deal out of this either though. Yes, the price you pay for a second hand EV is much lower than the price it was when it was new, but that's irrelevant. That new price was artificially high and propped up by our taxes. The comparison should be with an equivalent ICE car and not with the original fantasy sticker price. But that's a much more complicated news story to write and doesn't get as many clicks.
- As well as the Hyundai charging issues (which I agree seem to have been fixed) there also seem to be issues with the reduction gear failing fairly early.
Hmm, I really don't think this is common. The only one I saw in my FB groups is one that went at 200k miles and it was fixed using normal transmission servicing techniques and equipment. That also seems to apply to 1st gen cars like mine (which is fine btw) and not Ioniq 5/6s
I'm always going to want to use Google maps just for the live traffic and camera/crash/obstruction data.
In car satnavs have that now too - mine does.
The comparison should be with an equivalent ICE car
Agree but when I bought my car for £13k the same car in diesel hybrid was £16k.
On the subject of pricing, the price of my wife’s Hyundai Inster (in Ireland) has gone up €500 in the last 2 months with, according to the dealer, another €1,200 coming in the next couple of weeks so about +7%. Either the cost to make them are increasing or they are selling so many they are trying to cash in. Felt a bit miffed there was no negotiation on price when we bought ours but now glad we nailed down the deal when we did.
In car satnavs have that now too - mine does.
How does that work? Have you tried comparing it to Google? I would have thought that Google would always have more accurate data on things like delays, obstructions, mobile speed cameras etc just because there are far more people using Google maps at any time than there are using a particular manufacturers satnav.
These days I find that I tend to always stick Google maps on even for things like my regular commute, because it will let me know expected arrival time (which tends to be very accurate) and whether the current route is still the best given current traffic conditions.
Maybe that's all standard now though. I know Tesla basically take Google data for their navigation system so maybe other manufacturers do too.
The Tesla/Google route finding isn't perfect, we always cross check against Waze for longer trips.
For some reason it also won't see the Rotherhithe tunnel as a viable route to cross the river, which is tedious as it's on my car commute....
12 months and 10k miles into our MY RWD 3 year lease and aside from the major issue of the company owner, and the pain of the insurance renewal, a so far excellent experience.
The Tesla/Google route finding isn't perfect, we always cross check against Waze for longer trips.
You do know that Waze is a Google company and uses the same data?
Yep but it seems to disagree often, particularly on the M25 vs through town options. I suspect like some weather apps, same data, different processes lead to different outputs, but I'll defer to the IT crowd on here.
How does that work? Have you tried comparing it to Google?
It works the same way as Google does - some sort of crowd-sourced data, maybe it's Waze, not sure. In any case, last weekend we had both the Satnav and Google Maps running, and they did both update a few minutes apart, but we don't know which one was correct since the jams were due to traffic volume and kept appearing and disappearing as we were approaching. I do know though that Hyundai's live charger information is much more up to date than Zap Map's, at least the free version.
You also get live routing up-front with Hyundai, not just as you drive, along with colours on the map etc, but it's only free for the first 5 years. It's £2.99 after that, which for us is coming up. I think it's worth it, because it also covers remote control of the car and so on.
These days I find that I tend to always stick Google maps on even for things like my regular commute, because it will let me know expected arrival time (which tends to be very accurate) and whether the current route is still the best given current traffic conditions.
Yep it does that. You put 'work' in, and it gives you the best route. What it doesn't do though is notify you before you leave for work, which Google can do via your phone.
My little Pug e208 uses TomTom maps and live traffic data for it's built in sat nav. I still use the TomTom app via Carplay most of the time, but when I look at them side by side the traffic data is the same.
It's somewhat personal preference, but after years of comparing TomTom to Google/Waze/Apple I still find TomTom is by far the best at using live data to route you round issues. So kind of nice that that's what is built into my car.
All the systems including in car sat navs will be using traffic information from multiple aggregated sources including traffic sensors and other vehicles on the road, so you should be seeing very similar information. I guess there are likely some systems differences in algorithms for re-routing, but unlikely to be huge. BMW uses Here technologies as it seems do Audi/VW/Mercedes/Volvo, and each of those vehicles will be updating the Here traffic map......
Thanks everyone. That’s really useful. I assumed that Hyundai/Kia/Peugeot/BMW systems would only have access to data from people using the same system, so Google would always be better due to the size of the user base. But it sounds as though they might be getting data from a number of sources (maybe including Google).
Rule number one, always check your assumptions 😀
I still like the way you can put the map on the driver’s display with the Renaults but it’s not such a big deal and I should perhaps look again at some of the cars I’d ruled out on that basis.
I have been able to see Google maps on the screen of my BMW, using android auto for at least 8 years I think. But actually I prefer BMW's mapping and navigation. This is particularly useful in the ix3 (not the iX, which I agree is ugly) and other evs, as it knows the state of charge and can point me to fast chargers when on a long trip. All ev manufacturers are pushing hard to upgrade software for route planning/charging so this will only get better. Google on your phone doesn't know the state of charge of the car.
@roverpig, with respect, you seem to be stuck in analysis paralysis 🧮. I suspect no car is ever perfect and there will always be compromises, you just need to work out the important ones and redraw your decision grid. Good luck and let us know how you get on.
A couple of mates moved from Teslas to an ioniq6 and polestar 2, both much happier with the non-tesla
Thanks @susepic You are right about the analysis paralysis of course. Although it's mostly because I enjoy the researching part more than the ownership. Understanding all the different trade-offs and decisions made by different manufacturers is fascinating (for me at least) and once I buy a car the fun stops 😀
I'm also aware that I have better options now than I did when I started looking around 8 months ago and I will have better options in the future too. For example, you can't buy an EV3 with a heat pump for under £35k yet, but I bet you will be able to before the end of the year.
Of course, by then there will be something even better on the market and the temptation will be there to wait another six months for those to start appearing on the used market. I've also now got a charger that reminds me every time I pull into the drive that I really should just buy something.
As an example of the temptation to wait:
There is a 9-month old Scenic with 10k on the clock that I've been watching on Autotrader. It was listed at the beginning of May for £10k less than the new list price, which sounds good. But it's already dropped another £2.5k in the (less than) month it's been on the site.
I've got a fair few EVs on my watch list and the story is essentially the same for them all. Buying a used EV at the moment is basically a Dutch auction. Wait and the price just keeps dropping, until eventually someone nips in and grabs it. But even the initial listing price for equivalent cars is dropping all the time. You see a car listed as being, say, a grand below the market rate one week and the next week the same car at the same price is just marked as being the market average.
It's undoubtedly a good time to buy a used EV, but I suspect next month will be an even better time and it's hard to say where and when the bottom will be.
TBH you sound like someone buying a PC in the early 90s - any model on the shelves was out of date because the next generation had already been announced, so you waited a few months for those to become available and by then there was another next generation on the way. That meant that some people ended up on ancient hardware because they couldn't bring themselves to buy something that wasn't at the cutting edge.
The sensible way to operate back then was to buy the one that met your requirements and then not look at the market until you were ready to buy again. That's what I've done with my used EV - don't care about prices now because I set my budget and bought a car I like, so why play "what if".