The indicated range in winter plummets if you do slow short trips i.e. town driving, because even a heat pump draws a lot of power to get the heating and cabin up to temperature, but you're not using much power for driving and not covering many miles. So the power used as a portion of total consumption can be like 50%. However on a long trip it should be only around 5% in the UK - and that's where range matters. So when people quote drastic range drops in winter it's important to know on what sort of drive. I've had two heat pump equipped cars and the range drop on a long trip in winter was about 10-20%
Government strategy appears to be pushing the burden to local authorities to come up with solutions, but there's no mention of price caps
The most likely local govt solution seems to be removing planning restrictions on cables crossing pavements or installing gutters, so you can run the cable from your house. This is a great solution but only if you can park outside your house.
Councils don't want to roll out infrastructure because they don't have enough money to run the services they have.
Our work has just introduced the Octopus Energy Salary Sacrifice scheme. Given that all of the tax, insurance, servicing, breakdown cover etc. is included, it is quite a tempting scheme
I am doing this exact same thing. Comparing sums. We have a 2015 astra diesel with 123k on the clock. I think it'll need a clutch and DMF soon. its the unknown of what else can go wrong and when to consider another car. Also taking into accout depreciation. Octupus offering 6p/kwh at night + insurance, servicing etc + charger install. we do 12k a year
Trouble is i'd want a tow bar fitted to use my bike rack and if we can tweak things in terms of insurance - my wife is a garden designer. I'm going ot enquire if we could get business insurance for her
I'd agree that leaving it all to the market is probably not going to produce a fair and equitable solution for all. That's what governments are for after all. But I do think the current high prices are driven by companies looking to fund expansion in order to get into a dominant position and once coverage reaches saturation point they will have to start competing on price.
I guess it could end up like diesel prices at motorway services. You pay a huge premium for convenience, except that because the cheaper option is to charge at home that premium ends up being payable at any garage.
The most likely local govt solution seems to be removing planning restrictions on cables crossing pavements or installing gutters, so you can run the cable from your house. This is a great solution but only if you can park outside your house.
Part of me really thinks we should just get on with the process of ripping off the band-aid that it on-street parking.
If the house doesn't have parking, then it was probably built within walking distance of local employers. If it's not walking distance of your employer then you're just displacing someone else who could walk to work 🤷
Someone will inevitably argue that this disadvantages poor people who can't afford a house with off-street parking. No it doesn't. On street parking disadvantages poor people who can't afford a car by removing a significant amount of the price premium that should be attached to having parking so they're forced into paying for an asset they don't even use or own.
Trouble is i'd want a tow bar fitted to use my bike rack
I have a salary sacrifice lease car through work and i specced it with a towbar, it's usually in the standard options assuming it's something the manufacturer offers.
If the house doesn't have parking, then it was probably built within walking distance of local employers. If it's not walking distance of your employer then you're just displacing someone else who could walk to work
Ok, I think large scale relocation of people, restructuring of cities and transport modes is probably a lot harder than installing on-street chargers. Also off-topic 🙂
The indicated range in winter plummets if you do slow short trips i.e. town driving, because even a heat pump draws a lot of power to get the heating and cabin up to temperature, but you're not using much power for driving and not covering many miles. So the power used as a portion of total consumption can be like 50%. However on a long trip it should be only around 5% in the UK - and that's where range matters. So when people quote drastic range drops in winter it's important to know on what sort of drive. I've had two heat pump equipped cars and the range drop on a long trip in winter was about 10-20%
Useful info. Trouble is for us that's what we use an EV - lots of small trips.
Ok, I think large scale relocation of people, restructuring of cities and transport modes is probably a lot harder than installing on-street chargers.
But therein lies the key benefit of not installing those chargers (or allowing trailing cables). It allows those streets to empty out of cars and be gentrified / pedestrianized / LTN'd gradually over time.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eza9e7iWUAAAI2Z?format=jpg&name=small
It's already happening in a more top-down way in Reading, there are lots of new developments with little or no parking at all including no on-road parking nearby.
Trouble is for us that's what we use an EV - lots of small trips.
So (assuming home charging) unless you're doing something like 15 10 mile trips a day range doesn't really matter.
Trouble is for us that's what we use an EV - lots of small trips.
It's not trouble though (with home charging) - you are unlikely to be doing 150 miles of short slow trips in a day. The only problem is that the estimated range on the dashboard might say 150 based on your previous usage, but it will work out much more when you take that long trip. And you would need to know what to expect if you were to do that.
Trouble is for us that's what we use an EV - lots of small trips.
But most of my trips across a week for the last 7 years (even charging at home) in the winter are not showing good efficiency.
I'm a bit unsure what you're saying about the range. Isn't the range based on current driving?
It's based on the recent history of the car - I'm not exactly sure how it's calculated or over what time or mileage, but my Hyundai seems pretty consistent whereas my Nissan wasn't.
I'm saying that the range indicated on the dashboard isn't necessarily relevant to a long trip you might be doing - just as it would be in an ICE car. So if you do these slow short trips in cold weather your efficiency for those trips might be 3 miles per kWh. Then, with a 50kWh battery, it'll say your range is 150 miles. But if you go on a long trip you might actually be getting 4.5 m/kWh, which would give you a range of 225 miles. But when you set off, your dash will still be saying your range is 150 miles.
Your car is actually more efficient in driving terms at low speed, but your heating and electronics are using the same as if you were driving fast. So there are fewer miles against which to offset their energy usage. So you are using less energy per hour, but not less energy per mile. Your heating uses maybe 3kW for the first 5 mins on a cold day, but if you live on a busy road you might only have driven 100 yards in that time and used 500Wh of battery. Those numbers would give you an efficiency of 0.2 m/kWh during that 5 minute period.
Useful. Comprehensive, thanks.
Need to assimilate that - always thought range was battery capacity/ current power draw.
I have noticed on the Citroen the range drops massively for about 80 miles then slows down.
Huh, weird. Manufacturers do seem to vary hugely, I have no idea what they do. I've heard that Tesla always starts (or used to) with the WTLP range and then changed according to that particular drive, which seems inadvisable - but maybe not due to the above scenario. My car seems to take a pretty long view since it never changes except with the seasons. I also suspect it takes the ambient temps into account since you can finish a trip in the afternoon with a certain charge level, then if you don't charge it might be down a few miles by the following morning if it got cold overnight.
Okay many thanks for this.
It's given me food for thought.
The Zoé adapts quite quickly, do a few motorway miles and it's soon adapted and giving a realisitic range.
As for cold starts, I've got into the habit of putting the car in the well- insulated garage, and putting a ski jacket on. I just use the heater if the screen starts misting on long runs. The heater is crap when it's really cold anyhow.
If you have heated seats and steering wheel, that’s much more efficient to use than space heating. Slightly different feel as far as comfort goes.
The heater is crap when it's really cold anyhow.
Is this the difference between having a heat pump and not?
I'm convinced our first gen Kia Soul didn't have one - took forever to warm up. E-C4 has one, rapid heating system.
I've really not followed the tech of Evs despite leasing them for years.
Got to say I'm still pleased with EDFs electric cheap off-peak rates because of the amount of hours they provide. Even if it's not the cheapest. (22:00 - 08:00 week day and all weekend.) 14p. Means i can do all the washing and enjoy the weekend etc guilt free.
Possibly a niche question for this thread & might have been covered in the preceding 00’s of pages, but looking at a tusker salary sacrifice Skoda enyak (or sealion 7 if I can get past the daft name) and wondered if anyone here had opted to purchase the ev after the 3 year lease and could offer some insight into what tusker refer to as “fair market price”.
ive spoken to them and its a value derived from autotrader and something else (caps maybe ?)
im not even sure its worth thinking about, but i am curious, as ill probably be stopping work in a few years after this term, so would rather not be without a car then.
still struggling with the man maths on leasing and not buying secondhand outright. But that’s really off topic.
The problem with any heat pump is the COP when it's really cold. Getting in the car at -20 in a ski resort a heat pump is barely more efficient than a resistance. Thecaptain has a good point, in those conditions a heated screen/seats/steering wheel are better than a heater. The Zoé shares its heat pump for cabin and battery. When it's really hot the A/C is useless and when it's really cold th eheater is useless.
@walowiz not sure if this helps but...
CAP is a well known industry set of value tables (like the old Parkers books that used to come out monthly and Glass's, which was more trade oriented). CAP has various condition values that range from basically the auction house to pristine retail. I'd guess it'll be a number between auction and dealer screen price they want.
I'd expect they'll value against CAP/Autotrader at the point where you express interest/they are able to offer it to you. You won't get a value now as the market may still have some volatility as things settle down further amd changes in volumes over the intervening 3-4 years.
PCP might give you more certainty on the final value but more expensive overall.
Kia explains well
https://www.kia.com/uk/about/news/pcp-vs-lease/
Is this the difference between having a heat pump and not?
Can only speak for the Musk ****panzer but the heat pump has never struggled in my 4 years of ownership with one. Toasty air from the vents within seconds of getting in the car. There is a degree of resistive heating from the various computers and motors that share the coolant loop, though, and you can sometimes feel the motors shivering to generate additional heat.
I was always conservative with the heat, but one morning when it was -4 and I had the Leaf I decided to treat it as a normal person would and whack it on 22. It warmed up in about 15 seconds. Not sure if it was the resistive heater or heat pump doing that, but it worked nicely. That's the same trip I realised the slow short trip thing because the efficiency went through the floor.
Regardling leasing: Someone buys a car, and plans to sell it after 3 years. They then let you drive it, and pay them for the privilege. Your payments cover the depreciation, risk, and their admin costs. The differences between you borrowing the money to do it yourself is that you don't have to pay their admin cost; and they might get a better deal on the new car to begin with because they are buying in volume. They might also self-finance or get better interest rates. But the mechanics are the same.
The only benefit to you is that you aren't exposed to huge depreciation shocks and you don't have to stump up for a large loan or put loads of capital in. Getting an unsecured loan of more than £25k isn't particularly easy or comfortable (you're on the hook for the money regardless) and that doesn't go far when it comes to cars.
But the massive benefit to buying is that you can buy used. New car deprecation is huge, and if you buy used someone else has paid that. If you buy at 3 or more years old the depreciation is likely to have slowed to the point where it broadly keeps up with your loan payments so you if you need to you can sell the car and cancel most of the loan (or make some money back towards the end of the term).
So I think leasing is not a bad idea if you want a new car every 3/5 years, but regardless of how you finance it this is a very expensive habit.
@walowiz not sure if this helps but...
CAP is a well known industry set of value tables (like the old Parkers books that used to come out monthly and Glass's, which was more trade oriented). CAP has various condition values that range from basically the auction house to pristine retail. I'd guess it'll be a number between auction and dealer screen price they want.
I'd expect they'll value against CAP/Autotrader at the point where you express interest/they are able to offer it to you. You won't get a value now as the market may still have some volatility as things settle down further amd changes in volumes over the intervening 3-4 years.
yep, not expecting a value now, just wondered if anyone has done this and has an example of whether it was a good deal or not at the end of the 3 years lease on salary sacrifice.
I'm not expecting a good deal tbh as it’s their car and their business is leasing.
Arval's offer to me at the end of the lease was not too bad. But how good or bad it is depends on the market situation in 3 years' time.
I'm not exactly sure how it's calculated or over what time or mileage, but my Hyundai seems pretty consistent whereas my Nissan wasn't.
They are fairly complicated models in the cars i've worked on. Averaging over the last 1000-2000 km of driving with different weightings depending on how long ago it was, and how much of that type of driving you were doing etc etc.
Using instantaneous, or even near instantaneous consumption would see your range fluctuating from infinity when you coast or regenerate to sub 50km when you start up and leave the house. (My last full ICE had a consumption of about 6-8mpg getting from the front door to the main road.)
Your heating uses maybe 3kW for the first 5 mins on a cold day
More like 5-7kW in anything bigger than a small hatch.
FWIW when i hit motorway speeds, rolling at 100kph uses between 25-30kW. Maybe 80 to accelerate to that speed. The slow steady roll to the kids school (mostly 50 or 70 limits) is using about 13-15kW to maintain speed. Heater is still using the same 5-7kW.
(I've had several fully instrumented EVs to play around with. Sorry, to do detailed analysis and test of...)
VW (via BCA) offered me my lease cars to buy at the end of the term. The prices were what you'd expect for that car on a VW dealer's forecourt - so maybe worth buying if you wanted that exact car but no bargains to be had.
More like 5-7kW in anything bigger than a small hatch.
Maybe in Sweden. Do you have uprated gear? I've never seen the consumption go over 3kW in either of the two cars I've had but they are downmarket cars and I've only got the energy breakdown on the dash to look at.
FWIW when i hit motorway speeds, rolling at 100kph uses between 25-30kW. Maybe 80 to accelerate to that speed
That seems huge, to me. Even with a 90kWh usable battery that's only 3hrs of driving which would be 300km. When I look, mine's about 12kW at motorway speeds which ties in with my range numbers. Are you in an E-XC90 or something?
Maybe in Sweden. Do you have uprated gear?
Nope, standard ish fitment for most C-D-E class cars across maybe a dozen manufacturers that i'm aware of. Not many companies fit different sized/powered systems for different markets these days. Sometimes they may have deleted the auxiliary PTC elements in warm markets. I know Ford and GM used to do that BITD. I'm not even sure if anyone still fits them now that 400V systems are available.
That seems huge, to me. Even with a 90kWh usable battery that's only 3hrs of driving which would be 300km. When I look, mine's about 12kW at motorway speeds which ties in with my range numbers. Are you in an E-XC90 or something?
Nope, that's from test data. I'd have to double check to find out which car.
And FWIW most of the test cycles used to work out your rated range average out at about 45-50kph. So massively less than rated range at about twice the speed used in the test cycle wouldn't be hugely surprising.
When I look, mine's about 12kW at motorway speeds
Yours is a lightweight, single motor vehicle though.. And it seems impressively efficient!
My polestar 2 cruises at the above suggestion (25-30kWh, at about 60mph)...
I think the single motor, newer version has more efficient motors and probably averages 18-20kWh at 60..
DrP
Does anyone know anything about the budget end of the EV world?
My daughter recently passed her test. She doesn't want to go very far (just drive to work 7 miles away and visit friends locally) and I'm going to get a charger installed in case I ever actually make a decision about my own EV. So it seems that an old EV might suit her well. Free charging at home and theoretically more reliable than an old ICE car.
I had a quick look at the budget end of the market on autotrader (~£3.5k) and it seems to just be a choice between Leafs (poor battery management) and higher mileage (or battery lease) Zoes (motors made of cheese). Anything I'm missing?
£7995 gets you a 20 plate Hyundai ionic near me. (Independent garage north Manchester.) Not sure of the mileage but it looks like the premium se version. Low insurance category.
Above the budget but might last several more years?
for young drivers the insurance can be exorbitant. Our boys are 18 and 22, and have a Polo and a Corsa ICE respectively. We looked recently at trading in the 71 plate Corsa for a new electric one, and the deals were quite good, but for a 22yr old in South Lanarkshire, with 3 points and 4 yrs of driving, his insurance went from £1000 to over £2500...
Thanks. Insurance is definitely something we'll have to look into more closely and does seem to be a negative of EVs.
To complicate matters she is looking at jobs all over the place (maybe not even in the UK) so it might only be needed for a few months (although could keep depending on where she goes). So, something cheap that she wont lose much on if she has to sell it on is probably best.
Actually the best option would be some sort of short-term or pay-as-you-go insurance on one of our existing cars, but those sort of policies (for brand new drivers) don't seem to exist anymore.
£5k might start to get you into a BMW i3.
Leafs and Zoes do work well enough. Very early Leafs had poor battery management software, but from I think 2014 on they have used software to limit the damage. This lead to 'Leafgate' where when the battery gets to hot you go into limp mode, but this requires lots of driving and I think three rapid charges in a row. The battery doesn't get hot driving unless you're in Arizona or something, but it gets hot when rapid charging and it doesn't cool down very quickly at all, even in the UK. So the cumulative effects of two or three rapid charges push it over the edge. Also the software on the 30kWh is worse than the 24kWh, and the 40/62kWh models.
As above though, the Ioniq 28/38kWh are much much better cars, and are likely to last decades. They're also perfectly usable and comfortable for long trips should the need arise.
@roverpig, I think the early leafs use a chademo charging plug so keep that in mind if you do get one and install a home charger. All EVs nowadays use the CCS charging plug which has helped standardise things.
It's Chademo for rapid charging, but they all use the same plug for slow charging on AC.
It's Chademo for rapid charging, but they all use the same plug for slow charging on AC.
I never knew that, good to know. Every day is a school day.
All EVs nowadays use the CCS charging plug
…for rapid DC charging.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
^ that is one big plug
took two more EV’s out for demo drives, Škoda enyak and BYD’s sea lion 7. I think they’re similar size.
the Enyak is a good car, not as quiet on the road as the id4, bit hard plasticy inside, but not a bad place to be in, acceleration is good, really good to be fair. And the screen console thing that gets so lamented was actually easy to use, boots cavernous which would great to transport bikes. The ride is harsh though, some unwelcome noise from the front, that we didn’t hear when driving the id4, both use the same platform, so I believe.
but the sea lion 7. Tested the dual motor option and in a word it is fast, really bloody fast when you ask it to go. Smooth round town, easy to drive, quite different to the Škoda, but really good. Interior finish level is also fantastic. Made the VAG offerings we’ve tested look budget. Boots not as big as the enyak, but it does have a frunk. And the amount of standard kit it comes with means there are no extra options to pay for or play around with on an online configurator. We were super surprised at how good the byd car was. the rotating screen is a bit gimmicky & the sunroof doesn’t open, if I’m being picky. Warranty is good on these, like Kia I suppose.
Actually liked the shape and styling of the sealion.
what I don’t know is how good byd are as a long term car, or for reliability. Anyone got one ?
I’ve yet to look at the Sea lion 7. Earlier in the year I looked at the BYD offerings after seeing a Seal down a nearby road. The Seal looked pretty good (albeit it is a saloon and therefore not on my list). The BYDs I poked around seemed good. BYD and Geely and Xpeng etc are established manufacturers, just not well known here…yet.
Like BYD, one of the real appeals of Teslas was there was none of the this option, that option, this package stuff and haggling that is still weirdly common among ‘German’ manufacturers and dealers that takes you from an OK starting price to ‘what!?!’ That BYD, and Polestar to some extent, are providing lots of kit as ‘standard’ seems good to me.
I think it was Volkswagen where I saw that things like a heat pump were a £1,000 ‘extra’. 🤷🏻♂️ in an EV in 2025 I’d expect that to be standard.
It's Chademo for rapid charging, but they all use the same plug for slow charging on AC.
I think early Leafs had a type1 AC connection, later Leafs had/have a type2 AC connection. I might be mistaken but would recommend you check if buying. I also think the early Kia Soul was type1 AC
think it was Volkswagen where I saw that things like a heat pump were a £1,000 ‘extra’. 🤷🏻♂️ in an EV in 2025 I’d expect that to be standard.
Putting a heat pump on everything makes as little sense as putting AWD on everything. It only really makes difference on long range once the car is up to temperature. For short journeys it makes about 1-3% difference to the m/kWh.
Just put my order in for my yellow Renault 5 to replace the ID3 🙂
Have to wait until October though ☹️
We have a Leaf - the 'slow' charger is type2, 'fast' is Chademo. Whilst it is becoming a problem that Chademo is basically the Betamax of chargers, it comes with a strange hidden benefit.
New 'superfast' charging infrastructure is now exclusively CCS, but the pre-existing chargers that are fast but not 'superfast' tend to have both CCS and Chademo. Which means they tend to be more available. And it's not like they're 'super' slow.
That said, just like VHS, you'd be foolish to go against the direction of travel.
Of course the downside is when you have an overnight power cut that won't be back on until lunch and wife needed car charged because she's out tonight.
I'll have to get it charged after power comes on, at extra expense.....buggers up plans!!
Given that you can buy a Scenic that is 4 months old with only 2K on the clock for nearly £10K less than the new price and that there are similar deals on the Megane, what is the advantage of ordering a car now for delivery in October over just buying a nearly-new one in October with a big discount?
For me I can answer this easily - it's a company car.
Otherwise I'd be looking to make those savings. 🙂
Given that you can buy a Scenic that is 4 months old with only 2K on the clock for nearly £10K less than the new price and that there are similar deals on the Megane, what is the advantage of ordering a car now for delivery in October over just buying a nearly-new one in October with a big discount?
Because it’s through work salary sacrifice, my current car is due to go back in October and there lead time on the R5 works out about right timing wise.
I wouldn’t buy a new EV, like you say buying nearly new will be a big saving.
If I like it I might try to buy it at the end.
there are similar deals on the Megane
The cost of a Megane is also the same through the company as the 5 so arguably that’s the more sensible choice. But sometimes it’s nice to not be sensible.
Is anyone considering the Alpine A290?
A quick question to the EV geeks out there....
What sanely priced EVs have roof rails? I'm going to need to move kayaks about some of the time - and I reckon having a roof rail makes taking on and off roof bars a manageable faff. The ones that slot into grooves or even clamp around the edge of the door is just not somewhere you'd go once or twice a week plus the paint wear.
Also - just to make options limited, it needs to be a vegan interior.
I think it might be a shortlist of the facelift eNiro.... Which is a bit bigger than I'd like.
@Daffy I had a test drive booked but was ill so had to cancel it. I’ve sat in one and had a look around it and was impressed.
I was holding out waiting for it to be added to the list so I could order one but it’s still not appeared on there.
So yes I was considering one… but tbh I’ve kind of gone off the styling of it. The more I look at it the more I think it looks a bit garish. I’ve got a Golf GTI and I’ve always liked the Golfs because they’re subtle, the Alpine isn’t really.
And the more I look at the 5 the more impressed I am, it just makes me smile 🙂
I’ll be gutted if the Alpine appears on the list cheaper than the 5 though 🤣
I posted these further up the thread, but here they are again.
The dash/display looks blummin huge in that little car.
@Daffy I had a test drive booked but was ill so had to cancel it. I’ve sat in one and had a look around it and was impressed.
I was holding out waiting for it to be added to the list so I could order one but it’s still not appeared on there.
So yes I was considering one… but tbh I’ve kind of gone off the styling of it. The more I look at it the more I think it looks a bit garish. I’ve got a Golf GTI and I’ve always liked the Golfs because they’re subtle, the Alpine isn’t really.
And the more I look at the 5 the more impressed I am, it just makes me smile 🙂
I’ll be gutted if the Alpine appears on the list cheaper than the 5 though 🤣
I was the same Phil. I looked at teh Alpine and I'm sure it will be a lot of fun too but the looks are not for me. I must be getting old because I thought it looked too over the top, but that is just my opinion.
Ended up choosing the 110kW Iconic. It was a coin flip for the yellow or the blue, I think they both look awesome!
It was a coin flip for the yellow or the blue, I think they both look awesome!
Good choice, the blue looks great 🙂
I think it would work well with some gold wheels like the Clio Williams had 😉
The dash/display looks blummin huge in that little car.
I think it's just that photo, when I had my test drive of the 5 I thought it was nicely laid out and looks great. I didn't have much of a play about with the infotainment tbh, so I'll have to wait to find out how it actually all works.
Having owned two Renaults and two Peugeots - the idea of a FULLY electric French car terrifies me.
hope you ordered the baguette holder as well
Unfortunately not an option with the lease company 😢 I’ll have to get one from somewhere else 🥖 😆
Having owned nothing but Renault, Dacia, Peugeot and a French built Fiat for 30 years, and fully Electric Renaults for 8 years I have a great deal of faith in the cars. 30 years of paying for home/roadside assistance and recovery, and never ever called them out.
Would somebody who has access to a salary sacrifice scheme mind sharing the "true costs" ?
Not your own of course, but let's take the Renault 5/Megane mentioned above. What would the total cost to you (i.e. after tax) be for say a two year lease at 20k miles/year?
I'm trying to work out whether to hang on to see the details of an NHS salary sacrifice scheme that my wife will have access to soon(ish) or just pull the plug on one of the nearly new cars on sale with big savings over the list price.
By the way, I totally get the head/heart thing. The 5 looks amazing in the metal and I've always had a soft spot for a dual-motor Volvo EX30 in yellow, despite it being a pretty awful combination of scandi minimalism and dreadful software 🙂
Surely depends on what tax bracket you are in to get figures...does it not?
It does
Having owned nothing but Renault, Dacia, Peugeot and a French built Fiat for 30 years, and fully Electric Renaults for 8 years I have a great deal of faith in the cars. 30 years of paying for home/roadside assistance and recovery, and never ever called them out.
and for balance, two low mileage scenic owned, different models, both with too many issues to list out, the most noteworthy was a design issue in the auto gearbox that meant it would always fail after n years / miles, which it did, 3-4 weeks and about a grand direct to a gearbox place to rebuild and fix, with the clear message that in their vast experience “it will definitely go again, it’s a known design fault”. The later model also had a similar expensive design issue with the auto box. the gearbox specialists told me - Renault knew about the fault, and it’s this that really pissed me off.
renault won’t get my money again. YMMD
Are Renault unique in this ? I highly doubt it - I suspect plenty of manufacturers know of issues but still let the cars roll out, taking the risk vs cost assessment route.
OK, fair enough. Does this work as a rough calculation though ?
LeaseLoco seem to think the best deal for a top spec Renault Megane for 40,000 miles over 2 years is around £13,700
Assume a 40% tax rate then that would actually cost you £8,220 over those 2 years right?
A 9 month old top spec Megane with 5k on the clock is currently around £25k on autotrader. That's lost £15k in less than a year by the way. Ouch!
So that car at three years old with 45k on the clock would need to be worth less than £17k for it to work out more expensive than leasing with salary sacrifice. And that's ignoring the fact that, if I buy it I'll probably end up keeping it for more like 7 years (based on previous experience) whereas if I lease it I'm more likely to go for another lease after those two years.
If you want to keep a car for a long time then owning is always better, I think. Because you pay the finance, but then after a while you don't. But you still have the car.
I am not sure I'd buy an 8 month old car though unless I were feeling rich.
Sometimes I buy new, sometimes second hand. I work out roughly what the depreciation, maintenance, failures etc. are likely to cost over the period I intend to own it and choose. A lease has never worked out worth while, there's always been a catch that's made it more expensive than it first appeared. Looking at the current market then in this part of the world a two-year-old Megane is the bargain of the moment especially if it has the 5-year guarantee.
there's always been a catch that's made it more expensive than it first appeared.
Yes. In a shocking turn of events I agree with Ed. You're paying the depreciation either way (for the new car) but you're also paying the lease company's costs and giving them some profit at the same time, along with insuring their risk. And you have a hard stop on the number of miles - if your circumstances change and you need to drive more you could be screwed.
Re the lease vs pcp vs buy on finance
the salary sacrifice has blurred the lines a little as it’s not quite the same, as it’s an all in one, car + insurance + road tax + (on the one here) breakdown + (tusker’s profit margin)
Leasing has to be overall more costly, as you don’t get the car (usually) at the end of a lease.
Does that mean you end up effectively getting a tax break on your car insurance? Not sure what I think about that.
Presumably these schemes will be designed so that the gross price of everything is a bit more than you could get yourself by shopping around, but you get the tax break. So you pay a bit less, the company running the scheme make a nice big profit and the taxpayer foots the bill. Hmmm.
Would somebody who has access to a salary sacrifice scheme mind sharing the "true costs" ?
Not your own of course, but let's take the Renault 5/Megane mentioned above. What would the total cost to you (i.e. after tax) be for say a two year lease at 20k miles/year?
On our salary sacrifice scheme for 24m with 0 down and 20k per year on a Megane EV60 Techno/Comfort/Range 60kWh the total price with all insurance and maintenance is £12.25k or around £510/m nett at a 40% tax payer.
My comparison is a BMW i4 which with the spec I want is around £700/m for 2 years s £17k. In contrast I can buy a 3y old I4 for £26k. Yes, I'd need £1500/y to make it equivalent, so £29k. but if I pay for that over 3y, assuming a £3k deposit for my old car, That's around the same amount as above, but in 3y, I have a 6y old car which I own....
Thanks @Daffy. That's a fair bit more than I was assuming (see above). Best deal I can see for the Techno spec Megane at 20k miles/year was £12,700 over the two years. So paying £12,250 after tax doesn't sound like such a good deal 😀 OK, add in insurance and maintenance for two years, so that's another £2k, but that's still only saving around £3k over what you could get by shopping around for the best lease+insurance deals and still more than it would cost to just buy a second hand model and run that for a few years I think. Plus there is presumably a small hit to your pension to consider.
OK, not comparing like with like and some people are happy to pay more to drive a new car, which is fair enough. But I was expecting salary sacrifice to be a bit more of a no-brainer to be honest.
Presumably that also means the lease company is pocketing something like £20k over those two years.
As I said, I just can’t make it work through the work (Zenith) scheme at a price I’m happy with and for a car I want.
I can however see that when some lease deals for the public come up, they can be cost effective if you want a new car or are happy to pay a premium to have less worry, but it’s not for me. I think I’m too Scottish/Northern.