It's all an attitude thing though really. For you (and maybe for me) sitting in the car for half an hour after a long day in the hills might be just fine, but if somebody else finds that a pain and just wants to get home then I can't argue with that. I've had various conversations with EV drivers now. Most are happy with their choice but for the ones who aren't it tends to come down to one or two specific situations that they personally find annoying.
I don't think my friend is going back to ICE anytime soon though. He's just looking forward to the day when solid state batteries result in a car that he can drive all day without charging. Personally, I'm not sure that is really a good thing as I suspect the possibility of ultra long range EVs will make it harder for people to commit to installing public chargers, which are what I think we really need.
After a day in the hills there's a flask waiting for us in the car, we stop for a coffee with or without need for a charge.
Your last point about public chargers is the crux of it IMO. It's now 8 years I've been using EVs and whislt infrastructure has improved massively it's still more hassle than turning up at a petrol station and pouring petrol in. In nearly 50 years of using ICE vehicles I can count the times I've falied to fill up with petrol or diesel on the fingers of one hand. In 8 years with an EV I've run out of fingers on two hands. My record is three chargers on different networks in one town, Cernay, and ending up going back to a Tesla supercharger in the wrong direction - keep 40km in reserve folks.
But unlike him (and you) I’ve not actually tried it in practice.
We've modelled it, based on actual driver usage in ICE, hybrids and EVs.
600miles per charge may happen (but unlikely), but the number of people who *actually* need it is so close to zero that they could carry on with the most polluting ICE cars in existence and the additional total population emissions would trend to almost zero. Include breathing and farting, it'd be too small to measure.
A 100 mile a day round trip, commuting, puts you in something like the 99.9 percentile of daily usage in Europe (inc UK), US is about a quarter more.
I'm sure that's true, but it would appear that in order to get people to make the switch to an EV you can't just cover 99% of their use. It's those "edge case" journeys that people tend to focus on. Maybe super long range is what will be required to get people to move, but assuming the charging infrastructure improves I suspect it might just be a transitional thing though with those drivers moving back to cheaper, lighter cars once they realise that they don't actually need that range. But I could be wrong and maybe the shift to EVs will result in us all driving great big tanks with monster ranges, which would be a shame. I guess the market will decide. Glad it's not my job to try to predict that 😀
TBH, my personal view is that people who still concentrate on their (mostly) made up corner cases to explain how terrible EVs are should just be left to drive their ICE cars and fill up with petrol at 5 quid a litre when all the refineries shut... but that's just me 😉
The problems with that view is that not everyone can afford to buy an electric car and also have no means of charging without using “public” chargers. What could have been a movement for the equalisation of transportation has followed the capitalist model. Hugely more expensive charging, cars that are far more complicated than people actually need and the vehicles getting bigger and bigger and bigger! An opportunity for clean, greener transport has been missed.
I think you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick here, it's those who want massively expensive and heavy cars with huge batteries/range that i want to leave behind.
Is there any realistic chance of public fast charging costs to come down in the future?
Paying the equivalent of £12 a gallon seems to be a big hurdle for the many who don't have home charging
I think there are two arguments when it comes to range and I'm glad it isn't my job to predict which will win.
One is that range is still the number one issue for people considering a move from ICE to EV (and for a few EV owners too) that the average range of new EVs has increased a lot since the early days and that this trend will continue and possibly accelerate with the introduction of new battery technology. So the future for EVs will be cars with 600+ mile range. At which point charging "on the road" stops being an issue and you just need somewhere close to either where you live or where you work to charge.
The other argument is that we've already reached the optimal range for an EV and the future is all about improving the charging infrastructure to make those EVs more usable in a wider variety of situations. Under that scenario the future of EVs would be new technology bringing down the price and weight of cars along with improvements in the speed of charging rather than the range. Nobody really wants to pay for a car that is more expensive, bigger, heavier and less efficient than they need.
I prefer the second argument and I guess one fact in its favour is that my friend bought a mainstream car (ID3) with a 77 kwh battery back in 2021. Four years later and there still aren't many middle range cars offering much more than that. I think the latest ID3 has increased that from 77 to 79 kwh so hardly significant. In the meantime lots of new models have been released with "long range" offerings in the 60-70 kwh range. So maybe that is the sweet spot. Blowed if I know though.
There will always be those who will hate EV's for their own BS made up reasons. Leave them to it, there is no point in trying to show the merits as they do not want to listen.
For us, I acknowledge our case is somewhat more unusual to most, and it is purely down to the work we do. But I am hopeful that with the expected advances in technology etc this will be achievable in the future. Although the lack of movement on public charging here is a bit concerning.
For instance, we live in a town which is apparently 'affluent' (Seems just a normal town to me), with approximately 15,000 people. This town has 4 charging points. 3 of which are more often than not occupied by either regular cars or EV drivers who are using it as a parking space instead of actually charging. And they are slow.
The one which is a medium rate charger at best is often broken.
They are all off the beaten track.
There are 4 supermarkets, and at least 3 substantially sized public car parks, and none of them have any charging. I think this is a major missed opportunity.
Personally for a town of this size in 2025 I think this is pathetic. But hey ho, I'm just some daft laddie...
And for the time being we will in fact use a small cheap(er) EV for the day to day short trips. We do like how it drives, and find it makes for quite a relaxing journey.
And in 5 years we will look at it all again and see how it stands...
it tends to come down to one or two specific situations that they personally find annoying.
Indeed, but the point is the situation where you're spraying pollution everywhere you go SHOULD be annoying. But we're so used to it that we think it's normal and we don't care.
Regarding solid state batteries - I think manufacturers will offer two versions, 350 and 600 miles. The 600 will be as expensive as 350 mile cars are now, but the shorter range model will be cheaper even than an ICE car is now. Some folks will buy the long range car at first, but they will eventually realise they never use it, they could have saved a shitload of money with the shorter one and/or they will upgrade to a more luxurious car with 350 miles of range; and sales of the longer range models will be small - probably only bought by caravanners.
“Indeed, but the point is the situation where you're spraying pollution everywhere you go“.
You have made this point before and it is valid but a large part of the population don’t have a choice. It also conveniently ignores the pollution at source in the mining of the large amounts of copper and lithium, often connected with dodgy regimes and poor human rights.
I am in favour of sensibly sized and power electric vehicles but the “holier than thou” approach does nothing to persuade me!
Although the lack of movement on public charging here is a bit concerning.
Nothing else really matters, people are lazy, if you want to go from A-B you have to be confident you can. And you need to be confident of when you will arrive.
Why have i gone for a PHEV, a pure electric would cover 80-90% of my usage, but the remainder? questionable access to chargers. If you can guarantee fast chargers that are fast and readily available everywhere then the issues fall away.
But and here is a more general problem, someone has to pay for the infrastructure, and with fuel receipts falling, who? Why should non drivers be paying, which leads to road pricing of some form.
It also conveniently ignores the pollution at source in the mining of the large amounts of copper and lithium, often connected with dodgy regimes and poor human rights.
And the pollution to extract oil and the regimes in oil producing countries?
Im amazed we dont see more small cheap EVs here
https://www.wired.com/review/review-nissan-sakura-2025/#:~:text=The%20Sakura%20might%20be%20Japa n's,have%20been%20crying%20out%20for.
a large part of the population don’t have a choice
We know, and we've talked about this a lot here.
It also conveniently ignores the pollution at source in the mining of the large amounts of copper and lithium,
Again this hasn't been ignored, it's been endlessly discussed. The mining doesn't have to cause pollution, it just does currently; but also once mined it says mined and doesn't go away. This isn't the case for oil. And the pollution caused by mining is local and isn't going to bugger up the entire world.
As for holier than thou - this is your own interpretation. I'm just pointing out how things are - you're the one adding the resentment and moralising. I've got a 6hr round trip coming up and I have an EV on the drive, but I'll probably take the diesel because it's comfier. The EV I bought mostly because it was cheaper to run. So I'm not claiming to be better than anyone, at least not in terms of environmental footprint. In fact, every time this has been brought up in the last nearly 20 years I've been here I've said 'we' not 'you' and I've fully acknowledged my own failings. So let's put that one to bed.
At which point charging "on the road" stops being an issue and you just need somewhere close to either where you live or where you work to charge
Hmmm - I wonder if that's part of the reason for a reluctance to invest in "on the road" charging infrastructure?
Nobody really wants to pay for a car that is more expensive, bigger, heavier and less efficient than they need.
That does seem logical, but many of the cars on the road today disprove it.
For instance, we live in a town which is apparently 'affluent' (Seems just a normal town to me), with approximately 15,000 people. This town has 4 charging points. 3 of which are more often than not occupied by either regular cars or EV drivers who are using it as a parking space instead of actually charging. And they are slow.
And whatever tweak they've done to legislation in Sweden means that the city i live (pop. 60000) in has over 400 public chargers listed, and i know some that exist aren't listed yet (as i've used them) and there are two companies that have their own employee chargers (about 100 in total). And from what i can see (a quick look), they top out at about 20% cheaper than public charging in the UK. (i never pay more than about half of that rate).
And the pollution to extract oil and the regimes in oil producing countries?
And refine and distribute it.
and then burn it.
Nobody really wants to pay for a car that is more expensive, bigger, heavier and less efficient than they need.
That does seem logical, but many of the cars on the road today disprove it.
Good point. I maybe should have opened my eyes before posting that 😀
That is the problem with leaving everything to the market I guess. The big profits will be in expensive, long range complicated cars, so that's what manufacturers will want to push. The fact that such cars may be around the corner will make people less likely to invest in public charging hubs. Conversely (see the Swedish example above) if there are incentives to install charging infrastructure now then that would reduce the demand for those bigger super long range cars.
Im amazed we dont see more small cheap EVs here
Aren't most EVs company cars, salary sacrifice or just keeping up with the Jones's, like most other cars purchased?
I'm currently working on a project that uses 2.2MW of gas burners for the paint ovens at the mini plant in Oxford - this is just so mini roofs can be a different colour to the body, so absolutely unnecessary..
The mining doesn't have to cause pollution, it just does currently; but also once mined it says mined and doesn't go away. This isn't the case for oil. And the pollution caused by mining is local and isn't going to bugger up the entire world.
How many EV batteries, or batteries of any sort for that matter get recycled? Alot of 'green' policy in the UK at the moment seems centred around moving our problems elsewhere, for example buying coal from Australia instead of mining it in the UK.
Im amazed we dont see more small cheap EVs here
Would it be unreasonable to suggest that small cheap cars are symbiotic with smaller, cheaper housing. Flats & apartments, terrace houses and rentals. i.e. the kind of places less likely to be able to charge at home. And the economics of EV ownership (rather than other reasons to make the switch) start to make most sense when charging at home overnight. So the sector of the car market most influenced by economy (so mostly likely to live in a cheaper housing and buy a cheaper car) will for the moment see the least benefit from weekly running costs if they switched to EVs.
How many EV batteries, or batteries of any sort for that matter get recycled?
I'd be surprised if many get scrapped (or even recycled) at the moment to be honest. There is still a lot of value in an EV battery and I suspect that most will be re-purposed as home storage (especially as more people put solar panels on their roof) when they can no longer be used in an EV.
There is a lot of talk in the media at the moment about the high depreciation of new EVs (mostly from people who want to put you off buying an EV). That's mainly a consequence of inflated new prices that have been propped up by tax breaks on company cars. In the long term I expect that depreciation of older EVs is going to be a lot better than older ICE cars as that battery will still have value i.e. the floor for the value of an EV should be higher than for an ICE car.
I'd be surprised if many get scrapped (or even recycled) at the moment to be honest. There is still a lot of value in an EV battery and I suspect that most will be re-purposed as home storage (especially as more people put solar panels on their roof) when they can no longer be used in an EV.
This is spot on, I believe a lot going onto barges at the moment too.
Fair amount of 'black mass' being recovered at the moment too. Just Google 'lithium battery recycling uk' though there are some rogues / criminals in the sector too.
There are plenty of companies doing recycling but they haven't been able to scale up because there isn't enough supply of batteries to recycle. As above, they are being repurposed. They won't be thrown in a hole, there are too many valuable raw materials for that.
Re small cheap cars - there is much less margin on these. Capacity for making EVs is limited at the moment, so they may as well put the tech into the higher value cars that generate more profit so they can invest in production. My guess is that the market for EVs currently is probably heavily driven by company cars which don't tend to be small. The other issue is that quite a few small city cars are bought by young people who may well want to drive across the country in them, and truly short range cars might be a turnoff.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.
Those who drive 1000km in a single hit without any stops to visit their dying Aunt Dora once every 3 months have pretty much put paid to reduce. Materialism and the capitalist/"free market economy" don't help...
Reuse, there are at least half a dozen OEs and a dozen startups/3rd parties looking at how to reuse the batteries once they won't produce the current to move a car properly, conservative estimates reckon on discarded car cells being good for another 15 years in a house or for domestic type use (lighting, heating, light duties), if they can be structured and packaged properly (cooling/BMS/etc). Tesla claimed to be doing it, but the last i saw (two years ago maybe?) they were still using brand new cells. They may have moved to reuse by now.
Recycle, technically i don't think a single EV cell in existence has actually got to the point it needs recycling, but there are 3 or 4 facilities in europe at least who are doing what seems like a half arsed job of it. Another handful in China. No idea about the US.
There are EV battery packs that are too impact damaged / fire damaged that have to be recycled. Then there are all the illegal PLEVs that are being seized by the authorities.
Eg. Black mass recycling https://www.iconichem.com/black-mass-recycling
There are a couple of others.
The impact damaged packs are being recycled in France, they were pretty much the only ones available when recycling started as battery packs are lasting rather well. There have been a couple of TV reports. They claim 70% of the lithium is recovered, almost all the metals and the residue left can be integrated in building material.
Those who drive 1000km in a single hit without any stops to visit their dying Aunt Dora once every 3 months have pretty much put paid to reduce.
I think it's a little unfair to blame people for not buying an EV when the infrastructure isn't there to support the journeys they make (even if only rarely).
Our government decided that the best way to support the transition to EVs was to subsidise manufacturers to produce expensive company cars (through changes to the BIK rules). I can see why they did that. Without that support it was hard to see how existing car manufacturers would be able to compete with new (mainly Chinese) companies, so this looked like a way of supporting a move to EVs and also of protecting some UK manufacturing jobs. But the result is that it provides incentives for manufacturers to make (and consumers to buy) bigger more expensive EVs. I guess they hoped that the market would provide the charging infrastructure but by supporting the manufacture of expensive EVs they also make the business case for installing chargers harder. Basically, you need to be able to get your money back quickly (before longer range EVs become available) and that drives up charging costs and makes EVs less viable for anybody who can't charge at home.
An alternative approach would have been for the government to use the company car BIK income to support installation of more chargers instead. But it's too late for that now.
I guess they hoped that the market would provide the charging infrastructure
I think it is - chargers are flying up all over the place.
I think it is - chargers are flying up all over the place.
True but the price/kwh is pretty high and I expect that puts a lot of people off buying an EV. Also the market only ever provides the profitable bits of the network so people can still point to charging deserts as a reason not to make the switch. I'm not saying all of these excuses are legitimate, just trying to understand what the barriers are to wider uptake of EVs.
Think it depends on where you are...there are several spots that have chargers around me, but they aren't in ideal locations i.e. easily leave car to charge and return. I think 2 main streets in town have got street parking with chargers included - which is fantastic...but almost all the spaces are taken by ice cars (with several EV cars parked along other streets).
Things are improving but it isn't happening quickly in all places, I think demand is there, but it is low due to infrastructure not being in place, if that can improve then more EV cars will be getting used.
True but the price/kwh is pretty high
Yeah, I suspect this is set to provide enough profit to re-invest, because the main factor for choosing a network currently is availability - so to get market share the operators need availability not low price. Once the road network is saturated with charging locations, they'll have to start lowering prices - and that's ok because they won't need as much investment.
I think it is - chargers are flying up all over the place.
That doesn't mean they're going to be cheaper though - there are many thousands of petrol stations.... doesn't make them cheap. And in the same way if you want convenience, i.e. on major routes, you're going to have to pay for it.
Once the road network is saturated with charging locations, they'll have to start lowering prices
Why? See above..... we have thousands of petrol stations and that has not necessarily meant cheap fuel.
True but the price/kwh is pretty high and I expect that puts a lot of people off buying an EV.
My list in order of importance:
- Can't pull my 3500kg boat/trailer combo
- Cost of the cars (even used)*
- Still questions over longevity
- [Range
- Cost of public fuel**]
* My current car is 12 years old, is a lovely place to be and is still absolutely fine for my needs so why spend more?
** I could charge at home so it's of little interest to me
I think it is - chargers are flying up all over the place.
Maybe where you are they are, certainly aren't in many parts of the UK. and that is a problem.
I don't have a problem with anybody who says an EV isn't for them. Personally, I don't see any point developing EVs or charging infrastructure for people who want to tow heavy loads. There aren't enough of those journeys for it to matter, so let them keep running an ICE car for the trips when they are towing.
I suspect the switch from ICE to EVs is baked in now but it will be slower than it would have been if different decisions had been made a few years ago.
See above..... we have thousands of petrol stations and that has not necessarily meant cheap fuel.
Retailer margin on petrol is about 8%, on diesel about 4% - literally pennies out of the cost - which doesn't include the costs of running the petrol station. Most goes on tax. It might not feel like it but fuel's already in a price war.
That doesn't mean they're going to be cheaper though - there are many thousands of petrol stations.... doesn't make them cheap.
That's probably because the oil for the fuel comes from another country and it is taxed heavily?
I think the price of charging at EV stations will slowly decrease as wind and solar increases. Even now when there is excess energy in the grid there are periods where charger operators can drop their prices to use up the excess. My local petrol station has EV charging and the price is displayed on a digital board with the petrol and I guess they will lower the price occasionally. Only seen this at the Poppleton park and ride at York before.
I guess that battery energy storage systems will also mop up excess supply in the future as well so there will be additional completion for the cheap power.
As for battery recycling and repurposing I think the current trend for home energy storage systems is using lithium iron phosphate batteries for their longevity and cycle life? The 18650? Li ion batteries that power my ioniq will be recycled in 10yrs time or go up in flames in a crash.
Most goes on tax.
According to Google that's currently a £25bn revenue stream. I wonder what will function as a replacement. For context VAT raised £169bn in the same time frame so it's not a small number.
I think the price of charging at EV stations will slowly decrease as wind and solar increases
Wholesale electricity is a traded commodity and its price is determined by the marginal cost of generating the next unit, which is usually by burning gas.
The gas price depends on supply/demand and will fall as wind and solar (and nuclear) increase. Check out how much gas France burns and the electricity price.
https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/la-production-delectricite-par-filiere
there are many thousands of petrol stations.... doesn't make them cheap
They are cheap insofar as they are putting very little margin on what they sell. The thing is that petrol for your car is a product that is created in response to specific demand. The petrol station is just the end point in a long supply chain dedicated to that product. However, the electricity for your car is the same stuff that is produced for a huge variety of things, the wholesale price is determined by a randomly variable supply and a fairly steady demand.
The gas price depends on supply/demand and will fall as wind and solar (and nuclear) increase. Check out how much gas France burns and the electricity price.
France doesn't determine the European wholesale market price though. I take your point in general terms, but the market is in dire need of reform, and until that happens, the price will continue to bear little relation to the actual cost of generation. It also should not be assumed that increased renewable and nuclear penetration will lead to lower wholesale costs, with the Hinkley C CfD being the most egregious example.
Timed via a tapo smart plug.
Careful on that, maybe not for you, but a lot of WiFi/smart/ZigBee/z-wave plugs are only rated to 2.2 kW continuous power, some less. (Some of mine are only 1.8, had one burn out a couple of years ago, which is why i checked!)
Bought some full spec ones to replace, but that model has been discontinued now.
I think the tapos are rated up to 3kw 🤔 when I last looked at the box.
Not had any issues with them but next time I'm drawing a lot of power through one I'll point my thermal imaging camera at it and see how hot it is getting 🔥
https://www.tp-link.com/uk/home-networking/smart-plug/tapo-p100/
I'm only taking 10amp for the car.
I draw more from the electric heaters I control with them (2.7kw).
But I will take on board your experience and dial down the power a bit.
FWIW the granny charger that came with my Hyundai is limited to 10A but you can also knock it back even more.
It also should not be assumed that increased renewable and nuclear penetration will lead to lower wholesale costs, with the Hinkley C CfD being the most egregious example.
Why can't I assume that ? Renewable in particular is really cheap to produce. Hinkley point leccy is predicted to be 16.7cents per kWh according to Google which is somewhat less than the 100cents I was being billed for UK public chargers other than Tesla.
Home solar is so cheap now it's worth having a few panels for personal use even if you never sell back into the grid. One of my friends has gone off grid and another has two sets of panels. One set which sells to the grid up to the French domestic limit of 3kW and the other which provides for the house but is blocked from feeding back to the grid (he's an electronics whiz but it can't be that hard). The car charges and all his appliances run when those panels are producing, some goes to batteries and the rest is wasted. With the current cost of panels and inverters he's quids in even with all the waste. Here you can buy panels that that have a domestic plug and you simply plug them in without an inverter, when you're consuming they reduce your bill and if you're not consuming the electricity company gets the surplus from you for free.
Why can't I assume that ? Renewable in particular is really cheap to produce.
Because as I've already said, the cost of production is not well linked with the market price and you haven't accounted for financing. You mentioned Hinkley, the CfD strike price currently sits at more than 12p per unit wholesale and is index linked, so good luck delivering that to the consumer at the 16.7 cents you claim. More than 60% of Hinkley's strike price is made up of various financing costs, CfD is a particularly poor financial mechanism for funding very large and long term infrastructure projects
Quelle surprise
Elon's obviously a massive helmet now, and I'm not a fan of the cars themselves, but I'm going to change my van for an electric car soon, and Tesla's lease costs on a new gen Model Y and their supercharger network means that's probably where my money will go. I'd rather think about the workers in Germany I'm helping to support in a factory within Europe, rather than a factory in China who are building so much of everything else...
So, justification over, here's the question for Tesla owners...
Is the Tesla Nav as good as everybody says? I drive to the Alps every year from the north east, and I hate hassle, do I just put the route in the car and it takes me to the Supercharger as and when without any stress?
So I’m a few thousand miles in to a 2023 non-long range model Y. For context it’s a work loaner while I wait for my ID7, and it’s replacing my diesel A6, so I’m not a ‘seasoned’ electric driver.
I’d make sure you go and sit in the Tesla and ideally drive one. My comments apply pre new model version. The sat nav is decent, it works it out, but it doesn’t automatically or easily use non Tesla chargers. So you have to get a bit more involved.
My concerns are more around the rest of the car. The seats are horrifically uncomfortable for me and the non-adjustable headrest kills my neck. The suspension is awful, as is the steering. The general quality of the car is horrible. The touchscreen UI is, for me, rather unintuitive and very fiddly to use.
I’m very grateful to have been lent the car, but I’m certainly not sorry to see it go. The charging etc works really well, superchargers are a great easy way to do it, just make sure you can live with the car. The value they represent is hard to argue with, I agree and understand!
Thanks northernremedy. I will definitely drive it first. I drove a previous gen and took it back after about ten miles because the suspension was so unbelievably wooden, but the cabin quality was poor and the build quality felt pretty shocking too. They reckon (mostly) that the new one has addressed a lot of the issues, but if it's not night and day better then I'll look at something else.
Curpa hybrids and VW ID7s are also pretty good value right now on lease, but nothing is as cheap, and with cheap running costs, as a Tesla for a comparable size car and range (and I definitely don't want Jaecoo, BYD, Omado and so on).
Yeah that’s where I ended up too. I would caution the Y boot isn’t anywhere near as big as the numbers suggest, it’s got lots of underfloor storage which is hard to actually use and also weird deep pockets either side. The boot isn’t as massive as you’d believe
Elon's obviously a massive helmet now
Just now? Has he ever not been?
I know what you mean about German workers but...no. Nein.
For me it would be like listening to a Lost Prophets album and trying not to think about who was singing. Actually it would be like listening to a Lost Prophets album with the windows wound down driving past a children's play park with all the parents starring wondering who the massive helmet was.
I dont see that the Tesla network is all that, at least not any more. I've never wished I had access to it. In fact the only time I had the opportunity to use one I didn't because I'd have had to leave the motorway and I couldn't be bothered.
Access to the Tesla supercharger has been a game changer for crossing Europe, Molgrips. In Holland we used nothing else, in Germany almost nothing else and here in France they are by far the most reliable network there is and one of the cheapest. Boycotting would just be too painful.
For me it would be like listening to a Lost Prophets album and trying not to think about who was singing.
Yeah, fair play. For me though, I've got a VW van on the drive and a little BMW fun car who both had a lot more to do with the Nazis than Elons last 18 months, so I'd feel a bit of a hypocrite. Both powered by oil probably dug out of the ground in countries whose civil liberties I find hugely objectionable.
Well, that, and the Chinese batteries powering the Apple device I'm typing on while I nurse the tired legs from taking my diesel van out to the woods to ride my (carbon) bike for fun.
Virtue signalling past me right by a good few years back.
Edit: Sorry, that reads more passive agressive than intended, was just trying to make a point.
While we are on the subject of Tesla navigation; it’s rare these days for me to type a destination into any satnav. More and more I just click on “get directions” on some web page on my phone or get the directions from an app like Strava that will give me driving directions to the start of a route in either Google or Apple Maps. Is there any equivalent of that in a Tesla? I know there is no CarPlay but does that mean you have to find the coordinates of that remote trail pull out and type them in or is there some other way of sending a location from your phone to the Tesla navigation?
I'm 8K miles into model Y ownership, bought pre Maga/ salute.
All that aside, it's a superb car for the money IME.
I find the sat nav really good, although I don't drive anything else to compare it to. It will pick up on places pretty quick when you start typing, father than having to search the whole address.
If I'm looking to find a Google pin for something more off grid then I'll just use the phone. I haven't messed about trying to integrate search between car and phone, it's just not worth it for me.
The statement above about the wider charging network being as good as supercharger is laughable in my fairly limited experience.
It's usually twice as expensive, four times slower, and eleventy times as likely to not be working at all.
I hate that I'm shilling for them, but the truth is the competition is way behind at a given price point.
is there some other way of sending a location from your phone to the Tesla navigation?
Yep, in whatever app you used to find the address you can just tap on "Share" and you'll see the Tesla in the list of apps you can share with. That sends it straight to the car.
Quelle surprise
If Tesla have fixed their odometers to over-read, it's probably to exaggerate the range. More servicing business and early expiry of mileage based warranty would be bonuses. If it's true, it could kill them - worse than the VW emissions cheat.
shilling
Not sure I see it as shilling (or choosing not to as 'virtue signalling' - for me that's a label that sits nearly alongside 'woke' as used by right wing politicians and DM readers, saying more about the user than the person it's used against).
It's more 'enabling'. Musk has the power and audience built on profits and a reputation for 'financial and business acumen'. Buy a VAG group/VW isn't going to bring Adolf back from the dead, but buying into Tesla (or Starlink, or X) is playing your part in perpetuating Musk's axis of influence.
Yes it's probably a horse has bolted situation and my Amazon order history from the last month does show a good deal of hypocrisy - but I couldn't do it. Opinions clearly vary.
They are as ugly as **** too which helps make my 'virtue signalling' easier 😀
^^ Like I say, Convert, my post was a bit more aggressive than I meant it to read - I wasn't trying to cause offence. I completely get the feelings people have towards him (I'm no different) but it wouldn't stop my buying a car or sticking a Tesla battery on the side of my house. Maybe it should, but it won't.
Anyway, different point. I've just picked up a new Y Launch Edition to have over the weekend. I've driven it home from North Shields (really good service in there) to Newcastle and where I turned the last Y around after 10 minutes I made it all the way home in this one. It feels like a big, heavy car with soft suspension and wallows around a bit, but feels well damped now, and unbelievably quiet.
Cabin quality isn't BMW/Audi/VW group, but it's a big jump up, it feels like a nicer place to be. Audio quality as good as it always was.
To the point about the sat nav though, it is really impressive. I whacked in Les Gets, and this is what it pulls up. The car is currently on 48% so obviously it would be less stops on a full charge. I just want something to make it easy, this looks really impressive (f it works). 
I get that as cars and chargers there's a lot going for them, but sometimes making a stand includes a bit of self sacrifice. Might be virtue signalling but I'd rather have a more difficult EV owning/charging experience than put anything Musk's way.
As for the VW etc comments. It was a long time ago and part of the history was the acceptance, apologies, reparations. I see none of that from Musk, now or likely in the future, just doubling down. I wouldn't have bought a VW in the 40's (I know, wasn't the choice) and I won't consider a Tesla now.
That'll work, Iamtheinsurection, I'd suggest filling to 100% in Geneva or Megève to avoid faffing with a destiantion charger.
I’d also say that the nav tends to err towards very short stops. The reality is you’ll need to stop for some food and to stretch legs, and you may find you run of time to do so it’ll charge that quickly. Just done a trip to the Ardnamurchan and back from North Yorkshire, we did a one stop strategy south of Glasgow and it worked an absolute treat. By the time been for a wee, had some sandwiches and grabbed a coffee it had gone from 10%-100%
I'll leave the politics to one side. Mainly because I don't think I've got anything new to add to what has been said on the issue ad-nauseam. But I'm still interested in the question of whether a Tesla is really still the best choice of EV.
You can argue about whether they truly invented anything, but there is no doubt that Tesla played a big part in changing the perception of what an EV could do and for a while if you wanted an EV that could do everything (including long trips) with the minimum of fuss the advice to "just get a Tesla" was pretty good. But other manufacturers have caught up and Tesla don't seem to be as innovative as they once were. It's debatable whether Musk ever wanted Tesla to be be a mass market manufacturer of cars. If he did then he'd probably have brought out a low cost model years ago rather than focusing on a very expensive and seemingly commercially disastrous truck. I don't know whether Musk is just distracted by other projects or whether he only ever saw manufacturing of cars as a stepping stone to something else, but one by one the reasons to "just get a Tesla" seem to be disappearing.
There are still things that Tesla does differently, but it's less clear that any of those are actually an advantage. For example, while pretty much every other manufacturer gives you phone mirroring Tesla want you to connect to apps directly through the car (and pay them a subscription of course). So, you get a version of Google maps for navigation (but not really the full version you get on your phone) you can connect directly to Apple Music and Apple Podcasts. So in theory you can use those without even needing your phone. But how often do you travel anywhere without your phone these days and is that enough to make up for not being able to use other apps (such as BBC Sounds). Yes I know you can stream via Bluetooth but that's a pretty poor solution when you have a massive touchscreen on the dash.
The charging infrastructure is still just about an advantage if you spend a lot of time on the road, but the decision to open those chargers up to other manufacturers has dramatically reduced that advantage and suggests that Musk is more interested in generating revenue from chargers than he is in driving sales of his cars. Yes Tesla chargers tend to be a bit cheaper, but for anybody who does 90% of their charging at home the cost of on-the-road charging is pretty insignificant.
Mapping that tells you where to charge and for how long is now pretty common. I think Tesla still does a better job of predicting how much battery you will use on a journey, but other manufacturers are catching up there too. Cars running Google automotive, for example, will tend to show you a wider range of chargers and apps like ABRP will let you state whether you prefer lots of short stops or fewer longer ones.
Self driving is something Tesla make a big noise about, but European regulations coupled with Tesla's decision to tie a hand behind their back by removing radar sensors mean that other EVs often do a better job of the stuff you are allowed to do (e,g. less phantom breaking).
The new model Y is by all accounts a better car than the old one, but mainly just because the suspension isn't so wooden. Other than that it's mainly just some design tweaks. Plenty of other EVs have better driving dynamics than a Tesla these days and the lack of any big improvements does make you wonder whether Musk is that interested in development of cars for sale to the public.
Parts availability for Teslas seems to be poor as well. This leads to longer waits for repairs and higher costs of providing hire cars which (along with the performance of the cars) drives up insurance premiums. I did a few checks with my current provider and I could easily end up spending £500 a year more to insure a Tesla than some of the alternatives. Will that get better or worse over time? No idea, but nothing Tesla have done over the past few years leads me to believe that they are really interested in supporting their drivers over the longer term.
If you are just interested in "borrowing" a car for a couple of years and you don't mind supporting Musk then I think you could just about argue that a Tesla is possibly still the best option. But it's pretty marginal these days and if you are looking to keep a car for a decent while then I think there may be better options out there already.
Personally I don't think the Tesla is a stand out vehicle anymore, cetainly not the X and S. The 3 had the advantage that at times it's been extremely good value for money, but not anymore. The Y has never appealed.
I have an EV6, I have access to superchargers as well as many other chargers. I have buttons and steering console controls I like, and I prefer that to a screen. I have the range I need , I have high charging speed , good reliability and a very long warranty.
I'm very happy with my choice, and that includes the fact that I really didn't want to give money to Elon Musk. But I'm also very pleased with the car.
I'll be honest tho', if I see someone in a newly registered Tesla, it tells me something about that person.
Just out of interest @wbo do you find the having to physically plug the phone in for mirroring to be an issue?
I don’t charge often at public chargers so I’m not sure if this is normal - last couple of times the first charger I tried would not start charging and I had to use another one (luckily one was available). On both occasions I managed to get charged but it concerns me that if I’m in a more remote location and charging doesn’t work I’m stuffed. Is this a common issue? Or is it a car problem?
No, don't find needing to plug the phone in much of a hassle. Newest versions have wireless Android Auto anyway (mine is 2nd hand)
Is this a common issue?
Common IME, that why I always leave enough in the battery to get to another site (or two). The only network I've used that has been 100% reliable has been Tesla, even then like you we've occasionally had to move to another charger but when there are 24 to choose from it's not really an issue.
I don’t charge often at public chargers
We rarely use public chargers either but took the ID3 to Wales last summer (about 350 miles). The first stop at the motorway services we found the first charger we tried didn’t start, the second we tried did start but was slow (22kW I think, with nothing obvious saying it was slow) and third time lucky the car guzzled up electrons at 130kW.
On the way home another stop had two different suppliers and the first we tried didn’t work so moved over to the other brand which worked perfectly.
So in my limited experience yes it is common to have issues.
There were another couple of painless stops too, but it’s not a perfect system yet.
Also just to try it out I’ve tried a few times to use my local ones in town which I have failed to get started every time.
Tbh most of our longer journeys are done in our campervan and we have a petrol Golf which at some point will likely be swapped for an EV, I do hope the infrastructure improves though.
So, I drove about 150 mile in the new Y today. It's definitely a nice place to be, if your scoring a nice place to be on suspension comfort, noise, pedal feel, seat comfort, sounds system and quietness. It would get us from A-B with a minimum of fuss, and in comfort. A enjoyable car to drive, well, obviously no, but I haven't been in an electric car yet that I'd say that about - they all feel as heavy as they are.
Plugged in to a Supercharger, unremarkable as you all know already, but the first time I've done it for about three years since we got rid of the single worst car we ever had since my 1989 Orion (my wife's ID3). Given the comments on here, and from my mates, I did feel like a bit of a prick but it passed.
The lane keeping assist, and maybe the adaptive cruise too, isn't as good as what I've had on previous cars (Golf, BMW) and like all new cars now it's constantly binging some warning to you about speed, signs, lane departure and so on - but we're all stuck with that now. It definitely would benefit from a HUD or second small screen if for nothing other than the speed.
Ask that said, off to look at a Passat PHEV on Tuesday.
I'll be honest tho', if I see someone in a newly registered Tesla, it tells me something about that person.
You might want to read that last bit back again. I’m sure it’s not what you meant but it sounds as though you are saying that people who buy a Tesla are people who only care about themselves.
Does it? For clarity then, absolutely not the point I was trying to make.
There’s enough judgement in the world, without me adding to it
You’re not wrong there mate 😀
I just see somebody who doesn't like driving cars.
For absolute clarity, the first presumption I make about someone who's driving a newly registered Tesla is NOT that they don't like cars! That's what the Nissan qashqai is for.
I work with a guy who has a Tesla. Let's call him Iain (because that's his name). Iain bought doughnuts to work on the morning of 6th Nov 2024, which he served in a MAGA hat after decorating his desk in red, white and blue. Iain didn't have the covid vaccine. Iain attends the local Reform meetings and is hoping to stand at the next possible opportunity. But he really loves Musk......and oddly Paul Gadd (like really loves him; which is a strong move for a teacher).
Now clearly Iain is not normal (thank the non existent lord) and in no way typical of all Tesla drivers. But......you wanna be in Iain's gang, Iain's gang, Iain's gang?