[Closed] Thatcher's died according to BBC

Yes Kev-- her main target was organised labour--the only protection the exploited have in this system--- but the wheel turns --we haven't gone away-- horrible to work in a place with corporate 'staff' bodies-- honestly, workers and bosses have diametrically opposed interests in many ways-- its dishonest to deny this-- as all these right wingers attempt to do-- they are scared really, because despite having the power of wealth, its useless without workers....

is that real fueled! ritzy Brixton? Can you imagine if all the staff in all the supermarkets had a brain! I come across totally deluded types that are desperate go up the ranks all the time. they even know they won't get 50p more an hour for years, let alone a salary. the desperartion of "workers" makes me sad. But a few years back, these bods would at least have learned "skills". I am developing a real hatred for supermarkets.

wonder if that buck house scrounger will be next--to much to ask...

In bangor this aft, many very happy looking people --big party coming on friday.......

only scum like that would rejoice in someones death,

This line has come up a few times on this thread. Wonder how many people saying it would like to review their comments about bin laden, gadaffi etc.

I know a couple of people pwned themselves on this recently already.

Doesn't scum float to the top?

kev --they drag you down to their level , can get cynical if you not carefull-- you need to find another place to work bud--not easy but health is more important than anything-- M and S have slightly more educated bigots 😉

You are right Rudebwoy, you are right mate 🙂 new job is in the making...
From what I know..... I don't care that she's dead

good for you bud-- i'm lucky that i have a wife and kids so not as much pressure if i was single guy.... also the weather going to be nice soon --cycle riding is very good for the soul...

although this forum has gone strangely silent on the thatcher thing. It's very important to think about her legacy..

Which is? The divisions between different sections of our society, the 'I'm ok and nothing else matters way of life' or the politics of division that she was so good at and our current regime is foisting onto us?
Honestly- just interested.
I'm aware there was bad, and poss some good parts to her legacy but you've seemed fairly balanced in your views so I'm interested in your opinion. It helps that its nearly five am and the alternative is a sociology essay still needing to be done..

Im more amazed that people chose to live in Bangor 😆

As a final comment, I have to recall a conversation with a former work colleague and his wife, about 8 years ago who worked down a pit not too far from where I am sat now. His wife told me when they met, he was clearing into the bank £800 per week. He worked the coal face but by his own admission spent the majority of the shift asleep. If he was in the sick, he was paid full bonus as that is what the union had negotiated with the labour government to stop a proposed strike ! He also admitted that when a 36% pay rise was requested, even the miners thought it was a piss take but he went on strike like everybody else as that was how the vote went ! He told me the government could import coal from abroad, cheaper than we could manufacture it as a result. That is why we couldn't let the unions continue like they were. They needed stopping and she did just that. I have heartfelt sympathy for the families that struggled on £1 per day picket line money and handouts and soup kitchens but I bet Scargills family weren't fighting over the last slice of bread....
Don't blame the government, it needed breaking to give us what we have now, which isn't perfect but it's better than bins not collected for 2 months, power cuts and bus strikes all the time ! How would she have dealt with immigration ? Welfare scrounges ? How would she have dealt with the "something for nothing" way of thinking ? "The state will look after me"..... F@@@ clean off !!

Posted on a social network by a friend of mine......... How very true.

He worked the coal face but by his own admission spent the majority of the shift asleep.

😀

Makes you wonder how the stuff managed to come out of the ground - was it the work of fairies ?

Don't blame the government, it needed breaking to give us what we have now, which isn't perfect but it's better than bins not collected for 2 months, power cuts and bus strikes all the time !

Has your friend ever heard of middle ground? Yes the NUM took the piss, weak government allowed that. But does your friend seriously think that desolation of the communities is a good thing? Destruction of villages in Wales and Yorkshire a price worth paying for political ideal? Don't ever believe her government had the countries best interests at heart, it didn't.

Don't blame the government, it needed breaking to give us what we have now, which isn't perfect but it's better than bins not collected for 2 months, power cuts and bus strikes all the time ! How would she have dealt with immigration ? Welfare scrounges ? How would she have dealt with the "something for nothing" way of thinking ? "The state will look after me"..... F@@@ clean off !!

Also, we don't have to ask how Thatcher would have dealt with immigration, welfare scroungers or a certain way of thinking - we can just fire up the Internet machine and find out. She had all those issues put to her: what kind of job do you think she did?

Welfare scrounges

Well, as she created the culture that the Mail tells us is so prevalent it'd be interesting to hear what her solution would have been?

Destruction of villages in Wales and Yorkshire

She was a Godzilla crashing through decimating tiny occasional villages associated with a mine nearby?

The three valleys are tiny occasional villages?

Coyote

It did. They may have been deluded in your view (you may be right on some things) but be assured that at the time there were many who'd had enough of what was happening in their own work place let alone the state of the country a a whole. There were reasons she got voted for the first time. I'm no fan (for reasons I don't need to go into) of Mrs Thatcher but I respected her at the time and now. Those that opposed her the most knew no middle ground.

I'm off again before I get sucked into the debate by the revisionist historians.

interesting point from billy brag

"Raising a glass to the death of an infirm old lady changes none of this. The only real antidote to cynicism is activism. Don't celebrate - organise!"

how many of those happily celebrating her death have been part of active movements to improve their own community, got of their arses to make their local area better, more fair, look after the community and those more vulnerable in it. Or have they just looked at a bad situation and walked away happy in the knowledge that can blame "thatcher" and therefore need take no more action?

the problem as I see it (an this is purely a taz world view) is that if you wallow in an "us and them" mentality you forget that we are all "us" regardless of political view and gives excuse for piss poor behaviour towards other humans.

Interesting reading here. It was all going wrong before and as noted with a graph way back in this thread- the coal industry was on a longterm decline.

Decline

The coal mining industry of the South Wales Valleys was artificially buoyed throughout the war years, though there were expectations of a return to the pre-1939 industrial collapse after the end of the Second World War. There was a sense of salvation when the government announced the nationalisation of the British Coalmines in 1947; but the following decades saw a continual reduction in the output from the Welsh mines.

The decline in the mining of coal after World War II was a country wide issue, but South Wales and Rhondda were affected to a higher degree than other areas of Britain. Oil had superseded coal as the fuel of choice in many industries and there was political pressure influencing the supply of oil.[6] Of the few industries that were still reliant on coal, the demand was for quality coals, especially coking coal which was required by the steel industry. Fifty percent of Glamorgan coal was now supplied to steelworks,[7] with the second biggest market being domestic heating, which the 'smokeless' coal of the South Wales coalfield became once again fashionable after the publication of the Clean Air Act.[8] These two markets now controlled the fate of the mines in South Wales, and as demand fell from both sectors the knock-on effect on the mining industry was further contraction. In addition exports to other areas of Europe, traditionally France, Italy and the Low Countries, experienced a massive decline; from 33 per cent at the turn of the century to roughly 5 per cent by 1980.[8]

The other major factors in the decline of coal were related to the massive under-investment in South Wales mines over the past decades. Most of the mines in the valleys were sunk between the 1850s and 1880s, which, as a consequence, meant they were far smaller than most modern mines.[9] The Welsh mines were in comparison antiquated, with methods of ventilation, coal-preparation and power supply all of a poor standard.[9]

In 1945 the British coal industry cut 72 per cent of their output mechanically, whereas in South Wales the figure was just 22 per cent.[9] The only way to ensure the financial survival of the mines in the valleys was massive investment from the NCB, but the 'Plan for Coal' paper drawn up in 1950 was overly optimistic in the future demand for coal,[10] which was drastically reduced following an industrial recession in 1956 and an increased availability of oil.[6] From 15,000 miners in 1947, Rhondda had just a single pit within the valleys producing coal in 1984, located at Maerdy.[11]

In 1979, Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Her policies of free market economics soon clashed with the loss-making, government-owned National Coal Board. In 1984 and 1985, after the government announced plans to close many mines across the UK, mineworkers went on strike. The ultimate failure of this strike led to the virtual destruction of the UK's coal industry over the next decade. No deep coal mines are left in the valleys since the closure in 2008 of Tower Colliery in the Cynon Valley. Tower had been bought by the workers in 1994, despite government attempts to close it.

Since the mid 1980s, unemployment rates in the valleys have been among the highest in the whole United Kingdom, and have been seen as a major factor in the rise in drug abuse in the local area, which was highlighted in the national media during the autumn of 2002 and largely linked to drug dealing gangs from Birmingham and Bristol.[12]

In the new millennium, the last of the steel works closed, as Corus Group (formerly British Steel) closed its plant in Ebbw Vale.

Another forum I'm on (not a bike forum) has decided, out of respect for her family, to take out political comments. Not sure I agree with that but I do feel some of the hate comments on here are totally out of place. Surely you should be able to put a point of view without lowering yourself to such hateful language.
I would also like to point out that those who keep quoting the north of England as been devastated by Thatcher should be more specific in the areas they are talking about as it was not the all of the north.
It would be interesting to see how many of those making the hate comments actually lived through the 70's and saw exactly what it was like then. Perhaps they should put their age next to their post!

can we have it stopped on 666 please ?

Don't blame the government, it needed breaking to give us what we have now, which isn't perfect but it's better than bins not collected for 2 months, power cuts and bus strikes all the time ! How would she have dealt with immigration ? Welfare scrounges ? How would she have dealt with the "something for nothing" way of thinking ? "The state will look after me"..... F@@@ clean off !!

Well, she claimed £535,000 in state handouts since 2006, so she wasn't that adverse to something for nothing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mobileweb/2011/10/27/margaret-thatcher-benefits-claim_n_1055027.html

Yes the NUM took the piss, weak government allowed that.

Do you realise that during its entire history the NUM only had 4 national strikes ?

And one of them was the General Strike of 1926.

Although I guess you could be forgiven for thinking that they were constantly on strike given the level of propaganda people are subjected to.

Hora - an interesting parallel with the history of the Durham coalfields:

I would also like to point out that those who keep quoting the north of England as been devastated by Thatcher should be more specific in the areas they are talking about as it was not the all of the north.
It would be interesting to see how many of those making the hate comments actually lived through the 70's and saw exactly what it was like then. Perhaps they should put their age next to their post!

What about those that lived through and lost dear family members in the terrorism, fear and genocide which was the regime of pol pot and the khmer rouge after they were thrown out. She led the government which supporte their seat in the UN, sent british troops to train them and funded them. Did she cry for all those who suffered and as a result. Did she show any compassion, symapthy or respect to those who lost close family members? Yet you demand her family are shown some kindness? Are you serious? Every monster is someones child.

Debating her legacy in Parliament...why? What a waste of time/money/energy.

ernie_lynch - Member

He worked the coal face but by his own admission spent the majority of the shift asleep.

Makes you wonder how the stuff managed to come out of the ground - was it the work of fairies ?

It's easy to do this if there is overmanning - three on, one gets a kip. Not exclusive to mines but a lot of the big industry had similar 'practices' back then.

Lifer - Member
Debating her legacy in Parliament...why? What a waste of time/money/energy.

It only has value if it doesn't descend into a battle between sycophants and haters, the more I consider this the more I agree with you!

So typically a miner would turn up for work and then sleep for most of the shift - that's what miners did, right ? 🙂

Debating her legacy in Parliament...why? What a waste of time/money/energy.

Do you realise that during its entire history the NUM only had 4 national strikes ?

Wasn't the point that they didn't need to go on strike? Just the threat was usually enough? The 1971 NUM conference decided they would like a 43% pay rise, and when they didn't get it, they eventually brought the government down.

Happy days, eating cold baked-beans by candle-light!

I recall the last election when on here its seemed unbelievable that Labour wouldn't win, when the rest the country was chomping the bit to get rid of them.

Singletrack world really is another world, which doesn't have a clue about the real one.

The NUM asking for 43% is out of context without knowing their actual pay. If it was to provide the workers a living wage then so be it.

Someone above came out with the old chestnut of "name one leader since who has had the guts" etc etc.

You are right - since her we have had a succession of grey, press-driven non-entities. But the reason for that in my mind is her - she emasculated the system and removed any notion of discussion of an alternative, turning the political elite into a bunch of non-entity yes-men/women.

She remains, in my personal and very subjective view, the most catastrophic leader this country has had in a very, very long time. I do think that but for her we would be so much better off today.

Wasn't the point that they didn't need to go on strike? Just the threat was usually enough? The 1971 NUM conference decided they would like a 43% pay rise.....

In 1971 the NUM hadn't had a national strike since [b]1926[/b], which btw, wasn't a great success. In fact by 1971 they had never had a successful national strike in their entire history, so I don't know where you get your "just the threat was usually enough" claim.

The [i][b]point[/i][/b] is that miners very rarely went on strike, despite the impression created by false propaganda. For decades they settled for pay and conditions through negotiations and without striking - usually linked to productivity, although apparently they were asleep most of the time 🙂

IanW - Member
I recall the last election when on here its seemed unbelievable that Labour wouldn't win, when the rest the country was chomping the bit to get rid of them.

Singletrack world really is another world, which doesn't have a clue about the real one.

That is amazing.

Con 36.1% Lab 29.0% Lib 23.0

STW makes up 29% of those that voted?

[i]when on here its seemed unbelievable that Labour wouldn't win...Singletrack world really is another world, which doesn't have a clue about the real one. [/i]

Your memory is somewhat at odds with mine.

I think what people couldn't believe was that Cameron and and his old school chums would win a majority. Which actually seems to have been fairly in tune with the real world.

I tend to think that stw (not just those that choose to post on this sort of thread) is probably a fairly wide corss section of political views - we all have different life experiences.

The NUM asking for 43% is out of context without knowing their actual pay. If it was to provide the workers a living wage then so be it.

Out of interest I was managing a wholesale business at the time. It was quite normal to have surcharges on price lists of that sort of order, as inflation was running at such a level it wasn't realistic to reprint them that fast. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that figure might need to be viewed in that context.

Inflation rates for the 1970's

1981 11.9%
1980 18.0%
1979 13.4%
1978 8.3%
1977 15.8%
1976 16.5%
1975 24.2%
1974 16.0%
1973 9.2%
1972 7.1%
1971 9.4%
1970 6.4%

of course we can now argue abotu whether wage demans fuelled or reflected those rates 🙂

wwaswas, shame on you for not presenting those figures as a graph! 😛

I recall the last election when on here its seemed unbelievable that Labour wouldn't win, when the rest the country was chomping the bit to get rid of them.

That will be why the Tories won such a convincing majority then. Oh....

Coming from a fairly shit council estate in the north of England Maggie gave me opportunity, the unions told me how to get the most time off sick.

edit for the above- point is there appears to be so many armchair socialist on this website, knowing what they do from news reports and university discussion and don't have a clue about the real world.

That's the point Ian. She led us all to think of ourselves, as individuals, rather than as communities or society.

In 1971 the NUM hadn't had a national strike since 1926, which btw, wasn't a great success. In fact by 1971 they had never had a successful national strike in their entire history, so I don't know where you get your "just the threat was usually enough" claim.

Are you including strikes that were called illegally without a national ballot?

(ps. read up on rule 43)

IanW - Member
Coming from a fairly shit council estate in the north of England Maggie gave me opportunity, the unions told me how to get the most time of sick.

What was that about the election, sorry?

Your powers of recall on that weren't very reliable, and that was only 3 years ago!

Are you including strikes that were called illegally without a national ballot?

All national strikes mate.

You must be gutted that you can't prove that the NUM had more than 4 national strikes in its [i]entire[/i] history, eh Z-11 ?

The lies and the distortion of the truth usually works so well for you.

One other thought. It's a shame in a way that this has run to 20 pages and all the media nonsense has got going as it shows the hold she still has on us even from the grave. A more satisfactory response on reflection may have been a shrug and a "so what?".

Hopefully one day the country can finally move on from her clutches.

[i]shame on you for not presenting those figures as a graph[/i]

I was educated when Thatcher was in power.

They didn't let us do graphs as it tended to show how bad things were 😉

Lifer- Think you misunderstood.

Enlighten me.

Hopefully one day the country can finally move on from her clutches.

Indeed. But thats hardly likely to happen while her odious disciples carry on her divisive and cruel work, waging war on the least advantaged in society to further the cause of the rich

Ernie, so you realise why prior to '71 there had been so few national strikes - rule 43

and you'll realise that it was Scargill and his trot mates that moved this goalpost as they wanted to take on the government.

and you'll realise that by 84, they still couldn't guarantee hitting this lower target, so called an illegal strike, thereby dooming them to failure, and in the process causing immense pain to hundreds of thousands of pawns in his attempt to overthrow democracy and the government in his vain search to become the leader of a communist revolution.

Make no mistake, the NUM are far, far from being heroes in the eyes of many ex-miners, and the name Scargill is muttered with every bit as much hatred as Thatcher in many mining towns.

this piece in the Daily Mirror (bear with it) is about how the class war continues today.

[url= http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2013/04/a-class-act.html ]http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2013/04/a-class-act.html[/url]

I did find quite a lot in there that paralleled the Thatcher years, the rhetoric is different and to an extent the targets but the thrust is the same now as it's always been - blame the poor for being poor.

Charlie Mungus- Quite possibly, I believe her philosophy was that community improvement will only happen when its aligned with personal opportunity.

A view closely aligned with economics and the prevailing view of how humans are programmed.

That freedom was why she was popular and whilst the detailed changes were of varying degrees of success, the option is a nation of Mick Philpots and layabout union reps(of which there were plenty).

Lifer- cant really I don't understand you point, you quote one post and refer to another.

Right, I can see that it's got stuck in your gullet Z-11, so I'll repeat it.

[b]Do you realise that during its entire history the NUM only had 4 national strikes ?

And one of them was the General Strike of 1926.[/b]

[b]In 1971 the NUM hadn't had a national strike since 1926, which btw, wasn't a great success. In fact by 1971 they had never had a successful national strike in their entire history, so I don't know where you get your "just the threat was usually enough" claim.[/b]

You right-wingers really hate it when people hear the truth, dontcha ?

[i] the option is a nation of Mick Philpots[/i]

of all the things on this thread that is possibly the most offensive.

you really should think about what you're saying here:

that all parents on benefits will murder their children for a few quid.

that's shitty and you should be ashamed.

the option is a nation of Mick Philpots and layabout union reps(of which there were plenty).

Yes the 'me me me' culture of grasping selfishness is so much better isn't it.

IanW - Member
Lifer- cant really I don't understand you point, you quote one post and refer to another.

So you think I misunderstand because you don't understand?

I was just showing how dodgy your memory was re the General Election, so that maybe the rest of your recollections should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I believe her philosophy was that community improvement will only happen when its aligned with personal opportunity.

I think that is her real legacy even now most folk think what will it mean to me not will it make the world/country a better place she mad selfishness acceptable

Give the unemployment figure she deprived a hell of alot of people of personal opportunity never mind what she did to the community
if this was her goal [ I doubt it] she did not do very well

the option is a nation of Mick Philpots and layabout union reps(of which there were plenty).

Behave both offensive and the most idiotic comment on this thread

I am 54 years old-- a merchant seaman who went into the construction industry in 1983-- i left the MN in disgust at support for that malvinas/falklands conflict--no way was i going to be used as fodder for an imperialist clash---- miners strike--was class war-- declared by her and her cronies--they prepared well--they had learnt from previous clashes-- so they used scab labour-unliscensed lorry drivers--and crucial the might of the whole uk police force to destroy the miners union-- you were on one side or tother- i have been blacklisted for my union activities--standing up for rights and decent conditions , a living wage and supporting others in struggle-- its a proud and honourable thing to do-- those who want to snipe and peddle lies from keyboards and regurgitate tired old propaganda don't bother me really-- you are not relevant to those who matter-you are just barking dogs of the ruling class--who throw you the odd bone and give you a shiny new kennel --but for those of us who fought -you are now seeing the harvest of hate that Thatcher sowed all those years ago....

It makes me laugh this talk of people on benefits and their 'culture of entitlement'.

If you want to see a true 'culture of entitlement' then take a look at the tory front bench, the corporate boardrooms awarding themselves enormous pay rises, completely unrelated to economic performance, and the still unreformed and unapologetic snout-in-the-trough banking industry, whose obscene bonus structure rolls relentlessly on. This culture of limitless greed was all ushered in legitimised by that bloody woman. And its to the eternal detriment of us all

Anyway, all of those who cherish Thatcher's legacy, how do you square that with her unstinting support of mass murdering dictators like Pinochet? Even years later when his horrific crimes had fully come to light.

'Doesn't matter because thank god she smashed the unions' I suppose?

IanW - Member
Coming from a fairly shit council estate in the north of England Maggie gave me opportunity, the unions told me how to get the most time of sick.

Lifer-What was that about the election, sorry? Your powers of recall on that weren't very reliable, and that was only 3 years ago!

What am I supposed to read into this reply??? Stop blathering and make a point.

Is this not clear?

Lifer - Member

"IanW - Member
Lifer- cant really I don't understand you point, you quote one post and refer to another."

So you think I misunderstand because you don't understand?

I was just showing how dodgy your memory was re the General Election, so that maybe the rest of your recollections should be taken with a pinch of salt.

you were wrong perhaps you are wrong there

the bit where they kept explaining it to you was what gave it away for me

I was just showing how dodgy your memory was re the General Election, so that maybe the rest of your recollections should be taken with a pinch of salt.

HTH

The air seems fresher now she's gone. Hopefully Tebbit and Lawson soon to follow.

So you are making the point made well by Grum, only doing it with a hint of insult and quoting the wrong post?

Point is in the last election Labour was always going to loose power but that was seen as impossible on here.

And you think my philpott post is in bad taste when others are wishing people dead!!

they say it goes in threes-- take your pick Doug Turd- Tebbitt-Lawson-- is that Hogg thing still using air ?-- and that buck house scrounger to boot....

I'm in my fifties and have a vivid recollection of life in the UK before and during Thatcher's reign. I've always thought that without Thatcher, the UK could have grown into a modern prosperous economy, where the economy serves the whole of the population rather than a small proportion of the population , with the vast majority serving them. As a consequence of Thatcher the postwar consequence was broken and directly led to the problems we face now.

I came across this quote the other day from J K Galbraith and I think it sums up Maggies legacy :

'The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.'

Your Philpott post is just ludicrous! Can you explain in any way how more people like him would exist in a more socialist state?

Point is in the last election Labour was always going to loose power but that was seen as impossible on here.

NO it was not seen as impossible on here
No election result is impossible obviously even UKIP winning or the Greens etc

Its also not true to say that folk on here though that it was unlikely that Labour would lose the election - we can all read polls - in essence your recall of event is [ politely] questionable.

You are just making stuff up on here tbh - it was indeed obvious that Labour would lose the election- iirc that is why the Civil service prepared for a hung parliament and made constitutional arrangements for such an event - you think the political interested failed to notice this

In essence you are just making all of this up

And you think my philpott post is in bad taste when others are wishing people dead!!

And you think my philpott post is in bad taste when others are wishing people dead!!

you just don't get it do you--he was nasty piece of work who bullied people weaker than him and even killed his kids ( not purposely)-- the others were people in positions of power over many millions--and destroyed thousands of lives and continue to do so---

From Mr Steve Bell

[img] [/img]

CharlieMungus
"What about those that lived through and lost dear family members in the terrorism, fear and genocide which was the regime of pol pot and the khmer rouge after they were thrown out. She led the government which supporte their seat in the UN, sent british troops to train them and funded them. Did she cry for all those who suffered and as a result. Did she show any compassion, symapthy or respect to those who lost close family members? Yet you demand her family are shown some kindness? Are you serious? Every monster is someones child."

Sorry I'm not sure what your'e saying here. Are you supporting Pol Pot and the Kyhmer Rouge?
I'm not "demanding" I just feel there is no need for the hate language.
Mrs Thatcher was someone's child!