[Closed] Thatcher's died according to BBC

The Falklands.

RIP.
Karmic law will take care of the rest.
Whatever her faults she was still a human being.

A great speech and often completely misconstrued by her detractors:

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

Really rings true today where everyone wants something for nothing. 💡

Whatever her faults she was still a human being.

Are you sure? 😯

[img] [/img]

(Whatever her faults she was still a human being.)Evidence please. 😕

Really rings true today where everyone wants something for nothing.

Who is this 'everyone' who want something for nothing then?

I presume you mean the heads of the banks she de-regulated, who made vast personal fortunes, while destroying the economy, then looked to the taxpayer to bail them out with state handouts?

I lived through the 70s, and Britain was in serious trouble before she came to power.
I don't agree with all her policies, but she'll go down in history as a great leader. R.I.P.

I think this sums it up for me. History is always a harsh judge too.

I personally think history has been far too kind to her. But then history is written by the winners, isn't it? 🙄

Ernie - Wow, Thatcher being blamed by the Left for something that it turns out was a trend that started years before her, and continued years after, including on their watch

Where have we seen that before?

[img] [/img]

Edit: Hora -

Manufacturing: http://fullfact.org/factchecks/Growth_Labour_manufacturing-28817
Miners: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf

Hora - remember your (at the time) staunch defence of Jimmy saville? That didn't really work out that well for you did it? I suspect that this will probably be a fairly similar experience.

Hora - remember your (at the time) staunch defence of Jimmy saville?

and Lance 😆

She's only been in hell for 20mins and already she has shut 3 furnaces

I will not be glad about her passing, but neither will I even consider mourning. She was an old woman, she is now dead. Unfortunately it happens.

Any attempt at work or something to have a 'minutes silence' will be met, however, with vuvuzelas and the birdy song.

I will raise a glass, however, to friends from the eighties (yes, I was there in 70s/80s) who suffered so much.

rattrap - Member

Ernie - Wow, Thatcher being blamed by the Left ......

🙂 What are you talking about ?

The only thing I've blamed Thatcher for on this thread is screwing the Tories fortunes in Scotland.

Although I'm not particularly upset about that.

I lived and suffered through the Thatcher era. Christopher Wren's epitaph in St Paul's sums her life up: "If you seek an epitaph - look around you".

I remember being in a motorway services full of southern coppers in their nice new leather jackets (paid for with their overtime and out of town working allowance) laughing about cracking northern heads and I remember being stopped and searched and quizzed as I went to do a job in Barnsley (that's a former mining town for our southern friends)and I remember seeing the convoys of coal wagons with police escorts on the motorways, Ah, happy days. In the words of Ricky Tomlinson..my arse.

Whichever leader was around in that era would have had to face up to the unions, unfortunately it was her and some quarters will always vilify her for it.

Think about this:

[i]According to the BBC, "between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".[/i]

How many walk-outs?...in a year?!....losing the company 200 million!....the unions got what they deserved, this was out of control and needed stamping out....i cant help but think it was actually the unions that brought this misery on themselves.

How about doing some work and not walking out?....it all becomes clear when you read that this pillock was a member of the communist party, he thought he'd start an ideological war with Thatcher and gambled British Industry on the back of his beliefs....what a prick.

Her work was unfinished, she really ought to have got rid of the poor, then where would the left be ?

without a client perhaps !

We are all capitalists now though arent we, in our own houses, using our mobile phones, private pensions, some of us are even self employed !

Well shes gone now !

Rejoice !

Hora - remember your (at the time) staunch defence of Jimmy saville?
and Lance

Quite funny 8)

This is it though- I am the sort of person who defends another and firmly believe in innocent until proven beyond all doubt.

I turned out to be wrong and I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. The Saville stuff is shocking beyond all belief. Apart from the 'I thought he was dodgy-crowd' i bet alot of people who knew him were completely wrong-footed and had him down as a eccentric character up until the revelations.

Think about this:

According to the BBC, "between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".

Can I have the link to the BBC article please ?

How many walk-outs?...in a year?!....losing the company 200 million!....the unions got what they deserved, this was out of control and needed stamping out....i cant help but think it was actually the unions that brought this misery on themselves.

You're quite right. Once Thatcher brought the unions to heel, British Leyland went from strength to strength.

Oh.

No hora, I think that everyone who was close to him knew exactly what he was, but were too scared to do anything about it. Anyhow, sorry to bring it up, just couldn't resist it. By the way, I HATE TRYING TO POST ON THIS FARKING KINDLE!

Rejoice !

Graphs... charts....links.. this thread has it all, i wish i could dislike someone for over thirty years i think it would really improve my mental state... sorry for the rambling as you were i've no doubt the arguments will bear fruit and everyone will walk away happier... ooops sorry this is STW... 🙂

Actually, this thread hasn't become the distasteful thing it might have been.

Some good arguing going on here & points are being well made by both sides.

It probably wont last though... 🙄

Shall I take that as a no then ?

Can I have the link to the BBC article please ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4294709.stm

....anybody who thinks British Industry could have continued in that vein is delusional.

The unions were out of control, led by communist party members who didnt have their members interests at heart but instead wanted to pick a fight with a right wing government.

And yes, I blame Thatcher For that as well. In my socialist utopia, we'd all have Macs!

RIP Mrs T.

An/the (?) outstanding political figure of our/her generation, in the sense that she stood out and will be remembered more than most. I expect her death will reflect the whole notion of Thatcherism. Her supporters and detractors will both claim that she did far more than the reality - both the positives and the negatives. Thatcherism was largely a myth IMO and as misunderstood and mis-represented as Reaganomics. But that's bye-the-bye.

Certainly the end of an era.

Interesting to listen to Paddy Ashdown on the radio: "I opposed pretty much everything that she stood for in the UK and then found myself implementing pretty much all of it when I was in Bosnia". So like Mandleson, perhaps he ended up believing, that we are all Thatcherites now? ( I doubt it. )

[surpisingly restrained STW thread given the previous comments on what would happen when today arrived]

I'll say one thing- from the TV etc. I remember thinking how could anyone disagree/go against her? There was one news article where she handed over a cheque (hers) at the till of a supermarket. The cameras kept rolling and she curtly asked for the cheque back for safe-keeping. Her voice wasn't rude but you couldn't mistake the strength and force of will.

binners - Member

Who is this 'everyone' who want something for nothing then?

People I encounter on a daily basis.
🙂

hora - Member
I lived through the 70s, and Britain was in serious trouble before she came to power.
I don't agree with all her policies, but she'll go down in history as a great leader. R.I.P.
I think this sums it up for me. History is always a harsh judge too.

Me too. Sad. I remember being terrified of Labour getting back in in the '80s. I can't say I agree with all her policies in hindsight, but I do think she had the nation's best interest at heart and was brave enough to make tough choices for the greater good.

Thanks for the link deviant, but despite reading it I can find no mention of your claim that "between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".

You posted -

Think about this : According to the BBC, "between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".

Why do you want people to think about it when there is no evidence that it's actually true ?

Hora - your anecdotes increasingly resemble a muddled pensioner, sat in the day room of Sleepy Pastures Home for the Terminally Bewildered, incoherently rambling to anyone whole listen, in between pissing yourself and telling everyone you've still got all your own teeth

It's rarely heard why the Unions were in such a position of strength that they "needed bringing down". Most of British industry was suffering from a lack of investment and bad management but at a time when production was actually in a good position (I can remember Baird Television actually exporting TVs to Japan). Some far sighted unionists could see this and that profits were being raked off for the benefit others. Enter "the Great Leader", she was the perfect fall guy for a whole raft of unpopular policies and no matter how it's cut, she was just the stooge for the real rulers of the country.

The unions were out of control, led by communist party members who didnt have their members interests at heart but instead wanted to pick a fight with a right wing government.

Years ago I managed a business that was having some issues, and those problems were starting to manifest themselves through the formation of a union. I well remember a very gnarly and experienced ACAS official sitting in the boardroom and telling my half wit (bosses son) MD, "you'll get a union if you deserve one". Never a truer word said IMHO, and the truth of that adage extends to the various public utilities that Thatcher decimated.

The reality being that far from the workforce being at fault, years of piss poor management is what caused the problems. A good bit of that being due to lack of investment as successive governments robbed those organsiations of the investment they desperately needed and gave the proceeds away in tax cuts.

Evidence ?: Well try Nissan choosing to build their factory in Sunderland, that centre of right wing philosophy and home of workers with no history of union activity. Apparently the most productive car plant in Europe.

binners, what has Blair and Brown done for us?

This isn't very respectful and shows lots of you in a very bad light.

I'd just say this, if you are/were a young university graduate out looking for a career which period would you prefer to be doing it, in the immediate post thatcher period or now?

She may have acted badly as far as the mining communities are concerned, but they were going nowhere fast anyway, but what she did for the rest of the country and it's standing in todays world was unparalleled imv.

I wasn't her greatest fan, but she does deserve more respect in death than that being shown by some of you.

Very ill mannered you should be ashamed.

Her voice wasn't rude but you couldn't mistake the strength and force of will.

Yeah I imagine her buddy Pinochet had great strength and force of will too.

Thanks for the link deviant, but despite reading it I can find no mention of your claim that "between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".

Second para after the heading De Lorean

ernie_lynch - Member

Thanks for the link deviant, but despite reading it I can find no mention of your claim that "between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".

You posted -

Think about this : According to the BBC, "between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".

Why do you want people to think about it when there is no evidence that it's actually true?

It's there, under the heading "De Lorean".
🙂

Between 1978 and 1979, when he was sacked, Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production.

It appears in the para headed "DeLorean". While it's in a BBC article there's no attribution, so who exactly did the crediting is a bit of a mystery.

Very ill mannered you should be ashamed.

I'm ashamed 😆

ernie, second paragraph after the Delorean heading. I don't know if that makes it true or not but is certainly in the report.

Once Thatcher brought the unions to heel, British Leyland went from strength to strength.

It's rarely heard why the Unions were in such a position of strength that they "needed bringing down". Most of British industry was suffering from a lack of investment.

OR perhaps just as accurately, the managers were unable to invest in newer, modern & more efficient machinery, as the unions threatened to go on strike because it would have led to their members being out of a job.

See computer operated CNC machines vs hand operated lathes for an example.

Face the facts, the unions went from protecting the working man to being a protection racket which held the country to ransom - British industry was destroyed by the unions. Maggie restored sanity.

Have to say, it really is a terrible shame that Margaret Thatcher died in her home this morning.

Instead of in a Brighton Hotel 30 years ago.

Her method of dealing with the unions, like that of dealing with the Argentines, was pure confrontation. Negotiation would have benefitted everyone.

In both cases, her reputation increased, and everyone else lost.
As above, where are our steelworks and Brit Leyland now? Argentina still wants the Falklands and half of the North is still suffering. Her policies of selling off assets means that buying a home in the south is almost impossible for those on lower incomes, so private landlords are doing well.
Her policies are poisoning society thirty years later

Gawker has an interesting take on her time in power;

[url= http://gawker.com/5994007/margaret-thatcher-is-dead ]http://gawker.com/5994007/margaret-thatcher-is-dead[/url]

Well, I'll spare myself the embarrasment of behaving disgracefully (as I always thought I would)

Safe to say - no obituary will be complete without the word "polarising"

Does anyone have a link to the "Dancing Shoes" thread ... 😉

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

And the banks, never been in a better state, Thank Thatcher for deregulation.

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Gordon Brown, who also called for less regulation of the banks. ❓

Mind you, he also called for more regulation of the banks, but then I'm guessing he was [i]tired and emotional[/i].

It's there, under the heading "De Lorean".

Thanks. I did miss it completely 🙂

What I was interested in was the dates. The period could have been as little as a year which would have equated to well over one walkout per day. Even if it was over two years, then that would still represent one walkout almost every single day. Suspiciously unlikely imo. No work being done at all for one or two years at BL would have grabbed the headlines.

Moses - Member

Her method of dealing with the unions, like that of dealing with the Argentines, was pure confrontation. Negotiation would have benefitted everyone.

In both cases, her reputation increased, and everyone else lost.
As above, where are our steelworks and Brit Leyland now? Argentina still wants the Falklands and half of the North is still suffering. Her policies of selling off assets means that buying a home in the south is almost impossible for those on lower incomes, so private landlords are doing well.
Her policies are poisoning society thirty years later

Although there are many policies of hers I don't agree with, I do believe that the UK would have been much worse off if she hadn't faced up to the unions.

She stood up for Britain in like the last leftie Gov. And she fought our corner in Europe. How many miners (ex miners) on here to get hot under the collar about her, She put the Great back into Britain. Now there is oil in Falklands she did us proud there too.

I was born in 78 so although alive during her time in office, I was not aware of her impact.

Reading up today a few things stuck me:

-Seems the unions did far more damage to the miners than she did, they were already in trouble whilst Labour was still in government.
-Scargill didn't have a legal mandate for strike action as he had already lost two votes so didn't have a third!
-She voted for some very progressive policies such as making homosexuality legal, she was one of very few tories who voted for this

I'm not belittleing the impact she had on peoples lives but I suspect she also did a lot of good.

What has really struck me is the reaction, people seem more delighted about her death than they were about the death of Bin Laden, Hussein, Gadaffi etc.

To celebrate the death of anybody's mother is pretty poor form.

How many miners (ex miners) on here to get hot under the collar about her

So far I've noticed one on this thread.

[img] :large[/img]

Replace "Twitter" with "forums" and it pretty much sums up this thread.
Could maybe do with a segment to say trolling as well though.

Harry Styles tweeted an RIP here's what the 'younger generation' think;

[img] [/img]

Very classy post Seosamh77, been working on that humdinger for a while?

OR perhaps just as accurately, the managers were unable to invest in newer, modern & more efficient machinery, as the unions threatened to go on strike because it would have led to their members being out of a job.

Then explain why, once the unions were neutered, these captains of industry failed to turn their companies around.

[url] http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/northern-britain-already-hammered-2013040865062 [/url]

In fairness to the younger generation, I've no idea who Harry Styles is either.

Whitegoodman - I marvel at your insight into the worth of mining communities, and simply have to say "well done sir". Actually, no, you're a bit of a COCKMONKEY really.
Oh,another ex miner here. Have to say,the anticipation of her death, for me at least, was better then the reality. Disappointing to the end, eh Maggie?

To celebrate the death of anybody's mother is pretty poor form.

Agree. Poor form indeed. If I did that my Mother would tell me off.

you're a bit of a COCKMONKEY really.

If I remember rightly you threatened me on a previous 'Thatcher' thread.

A day of unconfined joy-- she was an icon for free market vandalism-- a week of partying starts now !!!

To celebrate the death of anybody's mother is pretty poor form.

Ordinarily, I'd agree. But Mark Thatcher?

Obama - "The world has lost a great champion of freedom"... Someone xerox him a copy of Section 28 please! "...it is forbidden to promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship".

from my facebook feed, can't be bothered to check the alleged facts but if its true i'm a bit disappointed in obama's team that told him to say that

Sad she has died...but

Maggie Thatcher .......... snatcher. (Add the appropriate subject, be it milk, grants or jobs!)

Have to say, it really is a terrible shame that Margaret Thatcher died in her home this morning.

Instead of in a Brighton Hotel 30 years ago.

yep-- thats all that was wrong with the brighton bomb--10lb light...

To celebrate the death of anybody's mother is pretty poor form.
Ordinarily, I'd agree. But Mark Thatcher?

He was not an only child

from my facebook feed, can't be bothered to check the alleged facts but if its true i'm a bit disappointed in obama's team that told him to say that

Especially given her support for Pinochet and Apartheid...

Has anyone mentioned Section/Clause 28 yet? Especially those who bang on in the religion threads.There was a deeply disturbing undercurrent of hate propogated by the Tories as I recall.

Supported by David Cameronsome until recently...
[i]In 2000, David Cameron (at that time an unelected Conservative party member) repeatedly attacked the Labour government's plans to abolish Section 28, publicly criticising then-Prime Minister Tony Blair as being "anti-family" and accused him of wanting the "promotion of homosexuality in schools".[46] In 2003, once Cameron had been elected as Conservative MP for Witney, he continued to support Section 28.[47] As the Labour government were determined to remove Section 28 from law, Cameron voted in favour of a Conservative amendment that retained certain aspects of the clause, which gay rights campaigners described as "Section 28 by the back door".[48][/i]

He was not an only child

I wasn't being entirely serious.

Now there is oil in Falklands she did us proud there too.

I know this is likely to come as a shock, but there was oil there in the 1980's too. Obviously, it is clear that she only did what she did because the population of the Falklands apparently want to be British, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that ownership of this piece of real estate actually gives GB inc rights to part of Antartica and all the natural resources that may lie there.

Berm bandit. You do realise that if someone takes a part of your land off you and you do nothing about it it sets a dangerous precedence on too many levels.

If someone took one of the French colonies from France- do you think they'd just protest profusely to the UN?

The difference is strength of leadership. Would another UK leader have appeased and come to a face-saving (to a degree) arrangement?

Is your advise to a lad in a playground bullying to give the lad what he wants and become his flunky?

I wasn't being entirely serious.

oops 😳

which gay rights campaigners described as "Section 28 by the back door".[48]

😀

Yes hora, threatening old me, I'm a bugger for it.

bencooper

Shame on you.I'm wondering if the Wiki contributor did that on purpose.

hora - Member

If someone took one of the French colonies from France- do you think they'd just protest profusely to the UN?

That may not be the best example... 😆