[Closed] Thatcher's died according to BBC

IanW - Member
So you are making the point made well by Grum, only doing it with a hint of insult and quoting the wrong post?

Point is in the last election Labour was always going to loose power but that was seen as impossible on here.

I quoted the post I meant to quote. It's pretty simple.

IanW - Member
edit for the above- point is there appears to be so many armchair socialist on this website, knowing what they do from news reports and university discussion and don't have a clue about the real world.

🙄

Cop-out. Anyone who disagrees 'doesn't have a clue about the real world'?

ernie_lynch - Member
So typically a miner would turn up for work and then sleep for most of the shift - that's what miners did, right ?

😆 😆 😆 - Priceless piece of deliberate misinterpretation. That is not what I said. But hey it's a thread about politics so let's not let truth get in the way shall we?

nice post bobgarrod-- for me these events strip away the grey areas, people reveal their true colours --but then often slink back to opportunism and the pursuit of selfishness--

Off to do some work now. As above this debate has reminded me of 80's when similar happened most evenings. It was in pubs then though not online.

The outcome was she got voted back in.

Its obvious what DR Mungus is saying and it is obvious who supported them - it is in his post

Thjatcher supported brutal regimes [ well only the right wing one pinochet, pol pot Apartheid etc]. In this case the training led to people being killed. You ask that we should respect her family when she caused other families to suffer by them loosing family members
Did this really need explaining?

[b]the sanctimonious bleatings of the thatcher apologists are to be expected[/b]-- if any of you people who say they are 'shocked'-'disappointed' with the reactions of those of us who are celebrating a class enemy-- yes read that again-- it was class war with her-- what you sow , so shall you reap ---biblical i know but apt in her case.

Have you labelled everyone who finds celebrating the death of an old lady distasteful a "Thatcher Apologist" then ?

Or is it just easier to dismiss what they have said if you pretend that's what they are.

point is there appears to be so many armchair socialist on this website, knowing what they do from news reports and university discussion and don't have a clue about the real world

Its a fair point!

I wonder how many people here remember standing on picket lines with their dads as kids?

I know I do, very well - and I also remember the police coming round to the house because of the death threats too.

there is a strange reverse morality at work with some--they want us to respect people who have organised state killing of many thousands, in order to carry out their 'conviction' politics-- get a grip !

And closer to home let's not forget the thousands of people forced into an early death by her policies. There seems to be a lot of societal amnesia at work today. Just remember those thousands of porr pensioners who used to die each winter because of fuel poverty. Yes that is some legacy; but not one to celebrate.

so ratttrap-- why were the police coming round to 'protect' someone ? Sausage Chips And Beans by any chance ?

rattrap - Member

"point is there appears to be so many armchair socialist on this website, knowing what they do from news reports and university discussion and don't have a clue about the real world"

Its a fair point!

I wonder how many people here remember standing on picket lines with their parents as kids?

I know I do, very well - and I also remember the police coming round to the house because of the death threats too.

So all historians should STFU unless they were there?

so ratttrap-- why were the police coming round to 'protect' someone ? Sausage Chips And Beans by any chance ?

Nope - the S word wasn't involved.

Have you labelled everyone who finds celebrating the death of an old lady distasteful a "Thatcher Apologist" then ?

Or is it just easier to dismiss what they have said if you pretend that's what they are.

I find celebrating the death of an old lady distasteful. But the numbers of people lauding someone who staunchly supported vile mass-murderers and racist regimes as if she was a saint is quite a lot more distasteful.

yes that is it you cannot be objective unless yu subjectively experienced it apparently.

I know I wont see a doctor who does not have the same illness as me as tbh what would they know eh

your central point is bobbins anyway about folk on here.
Ps What a colourful life you have lead Mr Mitty. racial persecuted for love, experience of the love that dare not speak its name, and now your father the militant socialist striking and being brutalised by the state.

You could not make it up ...oh hold on a minute

do enlighten Rattrap-- its obviously important or was it undercover stuff ??

The celebration is more reflective of the emotions felt by Iraqis on hearing about the toppling of Saddam Hussien, or the Romanians about Chauczescu. It is an eruption of supressed feeling. A pity those feelings wern't expressed more widely thirty years ago.

Rudebwoy, nope - but suffice to say that my dad was a shop steward in a certain union on one site, my mum worked in the management offices at another site.

I've seen both sides of what unions can do to people and families.

There's a great photo of me standing next to a brazier as a kid somewhere at my parents house, I should get it framed sometime...

And there is the feeling that at long last she has reached the state that many of her unfortunate victims got to far earlier than they needed to as a result of her institutionalised indifference.

I've seen that cartoon

RIP La Dame de Fer.

Bye, Maggie, I'd like to thank you for giving us something interesting to discuss in economics lectures, giving me many good reasons to live in France and providing me with one of my favourite teaching resources, your "Victorian Values" speech (that Junkyard has clearly never heard).

Re the mine closures/whole 'communities' being left stranded- The issue alot of commentators/detractors/people on the ground brought up was 'you left us with no alternative employment in the area'.

The problem was - what COULD you put into the South Wales area to give people work? Adequate work for alot of people?

Geographic location plays a big part but even with massive tax incentives, back then who could you attract manufacturing-wise etc?

(At that time)You could have opened up or relocated car plants but that'd involve losing jobs elsewhere.

You could have given retraining but retraining for what? - goes back to the geographic/area/location.

Sadly without mining such areas were always going to revert back to what they were pre-coal era. Just with a boomed/larger number of people living there now.

rattrap-- unions didn't do 'anything' to your family, they were reacting to protect their members from all out attack from a vindictive ruling class-if your mam's bread was buttered by managment thats her issue-- you can be a manager and have principles-- often means you will be out of work- but dignity cannot be bought !!

Hora- do you know the 'economics' of the nuclear industry and how much we subsidise that ?

rogerthecat - Member

ernie_lynch - Member
So typically a miner would turn up for work and then sleep for most of the shift - that's what miners did, right ?

- Priceless piece of deliberate misinterpretation. That is not what I said. But hey it's a thread about politics so let's not let truth get in the way shall we?

You most definitely said that you knew someone who worked on the coal face but spent most of the shift asleep, why don't you go back and check, if you can't remember what you wrote ?

Of course you are now going to say that you never claimed it was typical, which begs the question wtf did you bother mentioning it then ? 🙄

I was not going to post on this as I do not wish to hurt any surviving friends or her family. However I personally believe that her legacy as a politician is one of catastrophic destruction of communities, industries and lives. There may have been a need for industries to change but that could have been done over time with a plan to modernise and if necessary to replace. Her support for Pinochet, apartheid, are just plain wrong. Poll tax, massively extreme union bashing, and belief that everything can be reduced to some sort of market value all were disastrous. I hear now that the tax payers will have to pay 5 million for the funeral. Why?

The unions in Longbridge didn't do any of that while I was there just before the Winter of Discontent, Rudeboy. You don't protect your members by sabotaging the factory that pays their wages.

The unions lost their power because once secret-ballot democracy was forced on them they couldn't influence show-of-hands votes with bullying and intimidation.

Hora- do you know the 'economics' of the nuclear industry and how much we subsidise that ?

How does a different politicians failings and weakness relate to her situation though?

Scandalous that wind farms are being knobbled by almost bloody every angle going.

your "Victorian Values" speech (that Junkyard has clearly never heard).

The problem was - what COULD you put into the South Wales area to give people work? Adequate work for alot of people?

Geographic location plays a big part but even with massive tax incentives, back then who could you attract manufacturing-wise etc?

How does a different politicians failings and weakness relate to her situation though?

Scandalous that wind farms are being knobbled by almost bloody every angle going

I still cannot work out if you are a genius of irony or just a fool.

No I'm confused. She left power two decades ago. Why is our subsidy of the nuclear industry/current policy got to do with her?

The coal industry was in decline for decades before Thatcher.

One situation is a different context to the current.

reckon its not a genius of irony.....

The unions lost their power because once secret-ballot democracy was forced on them they couldn't influence show-of-hands votes with bullying and intimidation.

You've got poor memory. The Trade Union Act was in 1984, by then Sir Michael Edwardes management plan had been in operation, without any strikes, for several years. It was the threat and intimidation of unemployment, as the result of Thatcher doubling unemployment, that forced workers to accept management's terms. We now know that it did them no good.

@ ernie - ok - here's what I posted - please feel free to read it again and then point out where I used the word "typically"? Also where I said I knew someone who slept most of the time - I didn't say this, someone else did. But if it allows you to get a swivel eyed emoticon into the post let's not let truth interfere shall we?

rogerthecat - Member
It's easy to do this if there is overmanning - three on, one gets a kip. Not exclusive to mines but a lot of the big industry had similar 'practices' back then.

the self styled Edukator -with his reactionary views seeks to embellish them with revisionism-- an old tanky trick that the stalinists use to cover their bankrupt ideology

of course we can now argue abotu whether wage demans fuelled or reflected those [1980s inflation] rates

The celebration is more reflective of the emotions felt by Iraqis on hearing about the toppling of Saddam Hussien

Two camps on here. Ironically one camp is consistently full of pent up resentment and snipes towards STW'ers.

Weird that.

konabunny - Member
Well, I would hope that an proper Thatcherite would say it was an increase in money supply that caused it, although that might be a bit close to home given the utter failure of monetarist theory in the UK in the 1980s...

The Lady's not for turning, until she turns. But she didn't turn. Even though she did.

Two camps on here.

ernie - ok - here's what I posted - please feel free to read it again and then point out where I used the word "typically"?

I used the word "typically", not you 🙄

If you are now saying that it [b][i]wasn't[/i][/b] typical for miners to spend most of their shift sleeping, then why did you bother mentioning it then ffs ? It's clearly completely irrelevant.

I've already made that point - read my posts if you want to comment on them 💡

The problem was - what COULD you put into the South Wales area to give people work? Adequate work for alot of people?

There's work down here now. Not tons, but it's not as bad as it could be. I don't know if the investment in the area was part of Maggies plan or not.

If you are now saying that it wasn't typical for miners to spend most of their shift sleeping, then why did you bother mentioning it then ffs ?

My dad would sleep often down the coal mines. However, he was an electrician, and the nature of the job meant that when everything was fine there wasn't much to do. You make up for it when it goes wrong though.

thread seems to have stabilised today-- may flare up tonight when the gin brigade get in their stride, but its good to get honesty about real issues ......see you all later

My dad would sleep often down the coal mines. However, he was an electrician, and the nature of the job meant that when everything was fine there wasn't much to do. You make up for it when it goes wrong though.

(What used to be) a Huge engineering company in Huddersfield- I was told by someone senior there that for years people used to take turns to sleep through their shift. There would go to a certain part of the old victorian building and basically SLEEP the whole way through. It was tolerated.

WTF!!

I suppose sleeping was the olden days equivalent to spending the day being paid by your employer to post drivel on the internet

Binners wins the thread!

I grew up in Thatcher's Britain and I now live in a country which feels like its slowly sliding down the shitter, with weak Political leaders (from all parties) a pervading culture of self interest and social divisions. I think modern Britain was at least partly shaped by her actions and policies when in power, and that she has established negative aspects to our culture which have been barely challenged since.

Of course you could say that during her life she overcame the inherent handicap of her gender and the age in which she was born, to not only lead a staunchly Patriarchal, Right wing, Establishment led political party, but became the first Female Prime minister of the UK. That by itself is quite something.

What she did to this country when in power is done, and cannot be undone now. She has played no direct part in the government of this country for 20 odd years, so rather than dance on the grave of a old lady, and harp on about how the state of the UK today is entirely her fault, why not Challenge the lack of determination and imagination displayed by those that followed her...

I had no love for her or what she did during her political career, I very much doubt I'll bother to watch her televised funeral, and I'm already bored to tears with the programming that was cued up and ready to roll in anticipation of her death. But to actively revel in anyone's Death like some have on here and elsewhere? I would like to think I'm a better person than that.

Yesterday an old lady died, she was someones Mother and Grandmother as well as being a former politician of some note. Perhaps we should simply look on her as a figure from history, from whom lessons (both positive and negative) can be learned.

Then leave it there and move on...

It was tolerated

= Bad management, not a bad workforce, and thereby lies the fundamental problem in Thatchers ideaology. As previously stated you only have to look to the Nissan - Sunderland example to prove it.

Brilliant Binners! I used to see a bit of crafty napping going on at certain companies. Once got a bollocking for making to much noise (hammering), it was about 11:30pm and some of the chaps had just got back from the pub and need to catch up on their work sleep balance.

Last night on the BBC Thatcher program, Neil Kinnock was scathing of Scargill's roll in the miners strike... You could literally see the contempt Kinnock held Scargill in, it was written all over his face.

Anybody care to enlighten us on why, please ?

I suppose sleeping was the olden days equivalent to spending the day being paid by your employer to post drivel on the internet

😀

Two camps on here. Ironically one camp is consistently full of pent up resentment and snipes towards STW'ers.

Weird that.

LOL you complain about something then do it yourself in a reply that only has two sentences. Your defence is to have a "dig"

Yes deffo not an irony thing

Yes Binners wins with that point

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/12/miners-strike-neil-kinnock-arthur-scargill

Because Kinnock was/is a craven .......

I suppose sleeping was the olden days equivalent to spending the day being paid by your employer to post drivel on the internet

Does that mean we need another Thatcher to Crush the scourge of Lazy office workers abusing internet Privileges?

Do they even have a union for IT managers?

cookeaa - Member
I grew up in Thatcher's Britain and I now live in a country which feels like its slowly sliding down the shitter, with weak Political leaders (from all parties) a pervading culture of self interest and social divisions. I think modern Britain was at least partly shaped by her actions and policies when in power, and that she has established negative aspects to our culture which have been barely challenged since.

Of course you could say that during her life she overcame the inherent handicap of her gender and the age in which she was born, to not only lead a staunchly Patriarchal, Right wing, Establishment led political party, but became the first Female Prime minister of the UK. That by itself is quite something.

What she did to this country when in power is done, and cannot be undone now. She has played no direct part in the government of this country for 20 odd years, so rather than dance on the grave of a old lady, and harp on about how the state of the UK today is entirely her fault, why not Challenge the lack of determination and imagination displayed by those that followed her...

I had no love for her or what she did during her political career, I very much doubt I'll bother to watch her televised funeral, and I'm already bored to tears with the programming that was cued up and ready to roll in anticipation of her death. But to actively revel in anyone's Death like some have on here and elsewhere? I would like to think I'm a better person than that.

Yesterday an old lady died, she was someones Mother and Grandmother as well as being a former politician of some note. Perhaps we should simply look on her as a figure from history, from whom lessons (both positive and negative) can be learned.

Then leave it there and move on...

+1 Well said.

If you are now saying that it wasn't typical for miners to spend most of their shift sleeping, then why did you bother mentioning it then ffs ?

🙄

I didn't say it was typical for miners to sleep all shift, I didn't mention sleeping at all FFS 🙄 🙄 😆

I did mention it would be possible for them to do so with overmanning, and it did happen in other large industries at the time. I witnessed it at first hand, you know, actually being there and seeing it for yourself. FFS 🙄 🙄 🙄 😆

 

Kinnock was scathing because the original proposal put forward by the National Coal Board was for a phased shut down of the least productive mines with excellent redundancy payments for those miners that would lose their jobs - the terms were such that one of the union negotiators has subsequently said that he was stunned by the generosity of the initial proposals.

Against that backdrop Scargill basically campaigned on an all or nothing basis – no negotiation, no closures and no redundancies. That precipitated the subsequent stalemate (refer to various optimistic comments on this thread about “finding a middle ground” / negotiating with the unions) and ultimately led to many more mines being shut down than would otherwise have been the case, and lower payments to those that lost their jobs – effectively what Scargill did was to create a “my way” or “no way” choice for the government.

Unfortunately we’ll never know if a different Prime Minister would have been able to achieve a different outcome although it’s safe to say that many leaders would probably have taken a similar decisive approach to the one that ultimately turned out so badly for the miners and communities that were on the losing side.

Kinnock has commented on this a number of times so the fact that a staunch socialist can only criticise Scargill for his approach should speak volumes.

I did mention it would be possible for them to do so with overmanning, and it did happen in other large industries at the time. I witnessed it at first hand, you know, actually being there and seeing it for yourself. FFS

He's right.

[img] [/img]

windbag kinnock not fit to lick scargills boots--a douche bag of a man-- would not trust him to get a bag of chips..

Because Kinnock was/is a craven w*nker.

windbag kinnock not fit to lick scargills boots--a douche bag of a man-- would not trust him to get a bag of chips..

What's with the Kinnock hating?

If I could have chosen to ask Neil or Margaret to bring me a bag of chips, I think I'd go for Neil. Am I missing something?

OhNo and rudebwoy ... interesting options though yours are, they don't really answer the question.

Allthepies... thanks for the link... that's basicaly what he said on the program

Robd ... interesting thanks

Will people start slagging off John Smith next?

On the sleeping on the job point, I have direct experience (admittedly post-Thatcher, in the 1990's) at a very large engineering company - I don't get my facts from a random "senior" person I met in the pub or whatever.

I was in charge of a night shift and was left in no doubt that sleeping was a sackable offence to be enforced at all times. Of course common sense prevailed in reality - you took a view of the situation / individuals concerned. In cases where it was obviously accidental (eg a quiet area when not much work was coming though etc) you just made a lot of noise walking towards it, giving them enough time to wake up and look busy. I never had to sack someone for sleeping (but did do for other, very good, reasons). That's how it should work to my mind.

Probably not particularly related to the post, admittedly, but I've written it now.

Will people start slagging off John Smith next?

Depends. How trustworthy was he with bags of chips?

I liked Kinnock, he has always seemed a decent and honourable man, which is why the extreme ends of both parties vilify him. He seemed to realise that there was a road through the impasse that was both progressive and protected as much of the industry as possible. Unfortunately this left us with two intransigent megalomaniacs who had no idea of the meaning of the word compromise.

If I could have chosen to ask Neil or Margaret to bring me a bag of chips, I think I'd go for Neil. Am I missing something?

when I was at Cardiff Uni all the student union records on Kinnock went missing. Allegedly he used to have several political parties in the students union so he could get as much of their funding as possible. Also allegedly he used to be involved in local politics and used student union resources/money/cars in that involvement, even though it was 'illegal' and risked getting the student union shutdown.

It wouldn't surprise me if that was true based on actions of the socialist students of that time - being unable to vote because they had moved the voting station to a different location that had been communicated only to their 'brothers'.

I liked Kinnock, he has always seemed a decent and honourable man

fool...

Yesterday an old lady died, she was someones Mother

On 25 August 2004, Thatcher was arrested at his home in Constantia, Cape Town, South Africa. He was charged later that day with contravening two sections of South Africa's "Foreign Military Assistance Act", which bans South African residents from taking part in any foreign military activity. The charges related to "possible funding and logistical assistance in relation to [an] attempted coup in Equatorial Guinea" organized by Thatcher's friend, Simon Mann. He was released on 2 million rand bail and spent a period of time under house arrest, but was bailed to London to live with his widowed mother while his wife and children moved to the family's home in Dallas, Texas.

But then..

announced that his family home would be in Europe after he was refused a residence visa to live in the United States

Margaret Thatcher's son, the former British prime minister's nefarious offspring, will not be installing himself in the principality of Monaco as he hoped." A spokesman for Prince Albert II of Monaco told Le Figaro that Thatcher's residency card would not be renewed. "He has a temporary residency card valid for one year. It will not be renewed when it expires in the second half of 2006 and he will have to leave." The spokesman, Armand Deus, added: "I cannot say why it will not be renewed. But the Prince made things very clear during his investiture in July when he said that ethics will be at the centre of life in Monaco."

Personally, I blame the parents

BB- Question is the Sunderland Nissan plant an example of what could have been with better management or the result changing the employee/employer relations?

Since neither group has likely gone through some genetic change, I would argue its a result of employment terms more conducive to business (and hence individual) success.

by her own hopes she was a complete failure

"Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope."

She achieved that then as witnessed on here.

Will people start slagging off John Smith next?

Terrible Bitter it is no Boddingtons

Turner who on earth would take student political gossip - how many years after the event was this news relayed to you, decades?- seriously?

According to The Times, [carol the daughter]Thatcher called Tsonga "half-golliwog" and "the golliwog Frog".[14] Presenter Adrian Chiles, comedian Jo Brand, journalists and several guests[15] were with Thatcher when she made the remark. When others protested about her use of the word, Thatcher stated through her spokesperson[who?] that the comment was meant in jest.
The BBC stated that Thatcher would not work again on The One Show unless she made a more sincere apology.[16] Thatcher refused, saying "I stand by what I said. I wasn't going to apologise. I never meant it in a racist way. It was shorthand. I described someone's appearance colloquially—someone I happen to greatly admire."[11]

Of course you could say that during her life she overcame the inherent handicap of her gender and the age in which she was born, to not only lead a staunchly Patriarchal, Right wing, Establishment led political party, but became the first Female Prime minister of the UK. That by itself is quite something.

I cannot say why it will not be renewed. But the Prince made things very clear during his investiture in July when he said that ethics will be at the centre of life in Monaco."

Ethics? 😆

The whole place is full of tax exiles.

BB- Question is the Sunderland Nissan plant an example of what could have been with better management or the result changing the employee/employer relations?

TurnerGuy - Member

I liked Kinnock, he has always seemed a decent and honourable man

fool...

Interesting personal comment, my wife may agree but can you elucidate in this instance please?

Much derided I know but some pretty good designs in BL, just poorly implemented and most alternatives were pretty bad as well.

kinnock was a loathsome toad who sucked up to all who he thought would help him-- a poor type of blair-- but he was no goodat it --he was also severely anti democratic-- blair learnt a lot from him.....he was always the first to attck people defending themselves from tory policies-- the press wound his key and off the windbag would go-- a creep of the highest magnitude-- apart from that a crap rugby player and a ginger with little hair--

I worked in Longbridge in 78, the Winter of Discontent was 78-79, Thatcher was elected in May 79. She went on to end the closed shop, impose secret ballots and take measures to end demarkation disputes. That's not revising anything, that's fact, Rudeboy.

BB- Question is the Sunderland Nissan plant an example of what could have been with better management or the result changing the employee/employer relations?

Depends whether you think its possible to control a business from the bottom up. Personally, I've run numerous organisations in my life, and I've never once found the balance of power legally or otherwise to be on the employees side. Thats in a senior management career spanning from the 1970's to date. So I do think its largely down to better management frankly. In fact I'd go as far as to say that legislative issues around employee relations are what kicks in when its too late to have managed properly, so again the employee relations issue as you put it really is not relevant in my view.

Well, the radically superior product has to be a big factor too

Rubbish edukator- secret ballots are tosh--have you drip feed propoganda from the press-- then make your mind up as an individual not collectively- the closed shop is designed so that all those who benefit from hard won gains also contribute --thats as it should be--all those selfish types who dont want to pay a small union sub but never refuse the pay rises and holidays-- i'm all for open democracy--but it must be that!

"[s]the press[/s] STW wound his key and off the windbag would go"

😆