[Closed] 'That eating plan!!!'

started back on it this week. Not sure how much more eggy meat/meaty eggs i can stand for breakfast 😆

111.8kg on New Years day got down to 93kg by the end of May, then sort of eased off on it, but back on it as of yesterday and currently 97.3kg.

Anyone able to send it -or a rough guide- through?

I've been dieting down the last couple months, (from 84.5 to 78) but would like to drop a bit more!
But now at the point where i'd like to do a bit of experimenting with diets, better in winter when base training than summer when racing!

What ever did happen to iDave?

no idea mate, but thanks to him emailing me and telling me not only what i should and should not be eating, but also explaining why it works, i am 4lbs short of 5 stone lighter than i was at the beginning of march.
also the big weight loss has helped a massive way towards getting my health back, and letting me get back cycling.

so cheers Dave, if you ever take a peek on the forum and see this post.

Is this diet plan readily available or has the means to get hold of it been retired too?

Yup, could do with losing a pund or twenty meself!

It used to be up at Google Docs, but link doesn't work anymore. I did save the basic points though:

• NO bread, pasta, rice, potatoes etc
• NO drinks with calories
• NO fruit
• NO Cereal
• NO Dairy
• As in NONE. Just don’t do it, even a bit

As much as you want of …….
• Vegetables
• Beans/lentils
• Lean meat
• Eggs
• Seeds/nuts
• Lots of water
• Coffee
• Red wine with meals.
One day a week eat what you want

Couldn't stick to it myself. Intermittent fasting works better for me.

ton - have read most of your threads on here over the years, but missed last wee while (since electric bike times) Sounds like you are back to decent health again ? how is the heart ? sounded bad a while ago but recent history looks like you are on the up ? Hope so indeed 🙂

Still going, into second year now. Had 3 months where we were touring in France and keeping to it was hard (impossible), but now back in the swing.
Steady now at around the ten stone mark and don't seem to see much change if we are away from it for a while i.e visiting relatives. Miss it now when we have to eat "normal" food.

iain, i very very well at present mate, thanks for asking.
back to riding every day, with a ride thrown in at the weekend too.
my AF problem is a permanant thing now that is being managed a lot better with meds.
slower than eer uphill tho......... 😆

If anyone is interested I have it stored in iBooks so drop me an email (in profile) and ill send it to you

Yup, could do with losing a pund or twenty meself!

*Chuckles*

Failed rather badly whilst trying to ride very fast on commutes. Losing weight other ways though slowly.

I gave the plan to a moderately fat but tall and big bloke at work and he's losing weight alarmingly quickly, morphing into a rather impressive figure before our eyes.

iain, i very very well at present mate, thanks for asking.
back to riding every day, with a ride thrown in at the weekend too.
my AF problem is a permanant thing now that is being managed a lot better with meds.
slower than eer uphill tho.........

nice one, chuffed for you 🙂

Got myself down from 119Kg to 112Kg by exercise but just kept injuring myself as I was a tad too chunky. Tried that diet and had spectacular results. Lost something like 10Kg in a week then 1Kg per week after that. Thought it was water loss etc but it appears it was just pies & mars bars leaving my body.

My problem was that despite exercising I ate like horse. I was running flat out 45 min, easily sit-up/press up to 100 each, six days plus a week. And MTB all the time. Basically fit bloke in fat suit. I am worried what damage I did myself by eating junk.

Whilst I suspect any diet would have worked, the day off suited my inner glutton.

The weight loss actually had work colleagues checking I wasn't ill due to my clothes being comedy large.

i probably stick to it about 10ish days of the month and that seems enough to maintain my weight nicely.

molly, what other ways you losing weight with at the moment? 🙂

molly, what other ways you losing weight with at the moment?

Well done Ton.

i've managed to get back down to 12st by getting a dog, think the walking in the mornings and evenings have increased my BMR substantially compared to my normal winter slump

I've been following the 45 minute rule, no carbs for several hours before exercise or 45 minutes after the start. It keeps your body in fat burning mode.

In practical terms this means no breakfast, ride hard to work (40 mins) and then eat something carby, something carby or not for lunch depending on what's available, then nothing all afternoon, nothing on the ride home and a 'normal' meal ie with a portion of starch and a soft drink when I get back.

I lose a bit of weight doing this but I seem able to ride pretty hard which means I can get fast pretty quickly. I did it for three weeks and then managed to keep up with my fast mate on a road ride on steep climbs, which is a big deal cos he's skinny and fast 🙂

Also ton - glad to see you enjoying riding still 🙂

i'm flirting with it. had a blow out the last ~10 days but generally stick to it for at least 2 meals a day.

find dinners the hardest. omlettes / bacon eggs for breakfast is easy, take a salad for lunch.

If i don;t have a plan in my head for dinner 24 hours ahead i often draw a blank and end up eating chips/ pasta!

good to hear you've got through the exercising without carbs barrier you were facing dude 🙂 its surprising how quickly the body adapts isnt it!

I modified it it slightly so I'm 6 days of gluttony and 1 day on the veg, it's not working great so far though and I fear with mince pies on the supermarket shelves the one veg day may be given up soon...

Molly, riding hard isn't fat burning zone though is it? I'm doing kind of similar, but Z2 which is definately not hard. I do get that you'll have burnt more calories than just bimbling though, but Z2 (for me) seems to result in less sugar cravings, steady energy etc. But i fail to see how im going to be fast come start of race season in March atm 😕

I'm all about the [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/horizon-fasting-dietlifestyle-35-weeks-in-updates ]5:2[/url] fast.

I've lost 2st in 6 months by moving more and eating less crap. Not a pulse or lentil in sight.

Not a pulse or lentil in sight.

Why not? Good nutritious food. Ask any Indian.

Molly, riding hard isn't fat burning zone though is it?

Well a certain coach who used to come on here was not a fan of the fat burning zone idea, and neither are many other coaches who write online articles. Safe to say that there is a movement away from that idea currently in favour of HIIT.

I'm going for the fast approach for a few reasons

1) It's more fun
2) I haven't got all that much time generally
3) I want to train to be fast, not to ride forever
4) There's lots of evidence to suggest that it's more effective at weight loss for less time.

I'm doing a modified version because, hey, we're all different.

modified how? you should be growing a dadlydarcybelly

Well a certain coach who used to come on here was not a fan of the fat burning zone idea, and neither are many other coaches who write online articles. Safe to say that there is a movement away from that idea currently in favour of HIIT.

As I understand it the old "fat burning zone" theory has been debunked. Whether the body stores dietary fat or uses stored fat for fuel is determined by levels of hormones, principally insulin I believe, which is what I think molgrips is implying based on his "no carbs around exercise" rule. This is the entire basis of "that diet" although I don't think any of the "official" documentation ever actually explained how it worked in scientific terms. If you want more info it is all covered in Ferriss' book The 4 Hour Body.

I'm reading an interesting book called 'Racing Weight' at the moment and am going to give it a go ... its not rocket science and seems based on the general 'bleedin' obvious' principal - eat less crap, do exercise BUT what makes this book worth a read IMO is it is focused on folks like us that are into an endurance sport AND looks at not specifically weight loss but fat loss. Lean and mean.. well, not mean but you know what I'm saying.. 😉 Recommended.

but Z2 (for me) seems to result in less sugar cravings, steady energy etc

My approach is currently to eat as much simple carbs (but trying to avoid the really high GI stuff) as I feel I need, but only at the right times - otherwise I get really tired in my legs. If I get tired I just eat more carby things at those times.

zilog - that is what I mean yes - insulin inhibits lipolysis, meaning that if you eat simple carbs whilst riding, you end up wanting to eat more simple carbs.

nsulin inhibits lipolysis, meaning that if you eat simple carbs whilst riding, you end up wanting to eat more simple carbs.

AND looks at not specifically weight loss but fat loss.

I do eat carbs on longer rides, but only after 45 minutes and after hving fasted for several hours first. I find that I will still be quite tired during this 45 minute period but when I pop a gel it's fantastic, I take off like a rocket (relatively speaking!). And it lasts for ages too, I might only need one or two gels on a three hour ride.

[i]I've been following the 45 minute rule, no carbs for several hours before exercise or 45 minutes after the start. It keeps your body in fat burning mode.[/i]

I'm doing something similar - two mornings a week I ride for about 45 minutes straight out of bed, then don't eat until lunch. This, along with cutting out snacking and (usually) a 'normal' ride at the weekends has had me dropping about 2lbs a week for the last month.

No 'special' foods, just no/little 'crap'.

i put on too much timber after taking a break from cycling and went from 12 stone 7 to 14 9 , far too fat for 5'10 well 9" and a bit lol i did the dukan diet as it was easy to do and didnt seem to bother me at all, im now just keeping an eye on what i eat but not too much as im eating smaller portions anyway after eating less since last christmas, i still try to do a pretty much full protein day a week but ive been settled at just under 11 and a half now for a couple of months. much happier now 😉

just cost me a fortune in new leathers for the bike lol

i still throw in the weekly kebab tho as i cant do without, its my achilles heel

Well I'm effectively off the diet atm.

My limited and faddy food tastes means that I have a pretty limited scope of food and end up repeating the same food day in day out and it just gets all a bit, well, boring. My failure I admit.

So for the last 2-3 months I've been slipping into the old ways. And surprise I've put back on weight and I have less energy (and my skin complaints are beginning to rear up again).

I'm definitely getting back on it soon though as I dropped 3.5 stone which meant for the first time in years I was actually light enough to head to the alps with my roadbike and have fun.

I need to find more variety in meals that I can easily (enough) procure, prepare/cook and eat...

Oh, and keep on keepin on Ton, its little pricks to the conscience like this that will get me back on the One True Path

For the first 45 minutes you should fly on glycogen stores whatever you've eaten in the previous 12 hours. If you have no glycogen stores you're eating badly in general.

I used to do a 33km hilly commute (Pau-Oloron via the D24 used by the Tour) and often got up too late to eat. It made little or no difference to how I felt as the ride only lasted an hour. Hunger on arrival was not a problem, it was a chocolate factory.

For the first 45 minutes you should fly on glycogen stores

In my experience, for me there is definitely a difference between using glycogen stores and having glucose floating around in my blood from recent food intake.

I don't know if it makes a significant difference in terms of time or not. The route is too full of traffic so it's hard to tell, although times are close. However it certainly hurts a lot more, in a specific way, than if I have had a carby breakfast, or even a proteiny one.

However when I go on a longer ride there is definitely a change in how I feel. I start off feeling ok, but riding hard is a bit uncomfortable. After half an hour I start to flag, then I start to recover to a reasonable level and get comfortable. Then I take the gel, and suddenly I'm full of it ready to hammer everything feeling much better.

It's worth noting that I used to be unable to ride hard before breakfast, but now I'm much better at it.

Now instructions for the rest of the thread - don't dismiss my experience based on your own, ok? 🙂

I did the "he who must not be named" diet for about a year and am now living pretty much 100% paleo/bulletproof

This suits me well, although I would like to be leaner, it just doesn't seem to be happening and I am stuck at about 15% body fat. On the plus side, I feel great on the diet, it fits with the rest of the family (who aren't mad on beans) and from all of the research I have done, it seems to be pretty healthy.

I think all of this stuff is fascinating and it has become something of a hobby (along with boring anyone who will listen)

As for "him" - don't ask

I'm not dismissing your experience, Molgrips. I din't have trouble with eating breakfast and jumping straight on the bike either, despite what some experts say about "insulin spikes" lowering blood sugar levels immediately after eating.

I've experimented the distance I can go hard on glycogen without needing to take on carbs and it's about a semi-marathon running, an hour on skis or a sprint triathlon.

oddjob, check out the Racing Weight book I mentioned earlier, I'm not on commision (honest guv), but thats exactly what I was aiming to do. I am about 14% body fat and am looking to reduce that by a couple of percent, as much to help my bouldering as for riding.

I reckon I could go about 90 mins on the bike without eating, going reasonably hard, so that could be about right.

I did the "he who must not be named" diet for about a year and am now living pretty much 100% paleo/bulletproof

This suits me well, although I would like to be leaner, it just doesn't seem to be happening and I am stuck at about 15% body fat.

Of course it [i]could[/i] be argued that approx 15% BF is optimal (enough to have seen our ancestors through lean times, etc) - which is why a lot of people get "stuck" there - and that fighting this natural inclination is totally against the primal ideal.

That's about the lower limit of the iDiet for most people. As zilog says going lower may require forcing your body to do something it doens't really want to do - difficult to sustain and may not be good for you.

had 6 months on it and lost 1.5 stone. Since Aug my back has been playing up (nice spinal inflammation) and no surprise the combination of being more sedentary, feeling crap and thus eating more crap has put on best part of a stone.

going back on it next week now I've got some meds from doc and a plan of action to get the back working again. Hoping to shift 3/4 of a stone before xmas, when I'll put a bit back on again 🙂

I actually liked the food I was eating while on it, but feeling depressed about my back problems and not being able to exercise etc made me hit the crap food pretty hard.

I think there was a doc with various iDxxe friendly recipies in floating about which helped a lot

Ti pin man,
Is it [url= http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Weight-Lean-Peak-Performance/dp/1934030511 ]This one?[/url]

I've just cut out eating the shite, and monitored my intake, and dropped 6kg in the last 3 months. Now 78.5, i'd like to drop a little more for racing next season, so will look into that book!

How are people measuring their body fat?

We've got a set of fancy scales in the house, not sure how much i trust them though!

Could your back problems be related to your diet, Chomp. I've noted people in the tri club who adopt fad diets often end up injured and I don't think it's a coincidence.

just got back from a appointment with my cardiologist, the 1st thing he commented on, was how much weight i have lost.
he asked me how i had done it. i told him all about the idiet and what i was eating.
he said from what i was eating that i would be getting all i needed to maintain a healthy weight and lifestyle now.
i got weighed, and had my bp and cholesterol checked and everything was now ok.
praise for this eating plan from a cardiologist is all the encouragement i need to keep on doing it............ 8)

Great news!

Get in there not quite so big man. 😉

to me, weight loss will be down to cals in vs cals out. and each person has their own favourite way of getting there. mine is intermittent fasting. i prefer to go 16 hrs or so without food so that i can eat lovely big meals when i do. others prefer to nibble at a few smaller meals each day continuously. there are many ways to get he same results.
am i right in thinking that those on the idiet are still consuming less calories than 'maintenance', much the same as any diet?

im certainly not knocking it, it works! thats obvious, and congratulations to everyone thats seeing success. dont think i could eat those foods for ever tho, which is key to long lasting success.

am i right in thinking that those on the idiet are still consuming less calories than 'maintenance', much the same as any diet?

sadexpunk - Member
to me, weight loss will be down to cals in vs cals out.

It really isn't though!
As i, and a few others, have mentioned (back when there were several eating threads per day) a calorie is a thermodynamic unit relating to the amount of heat energy released (measured as the temperature increase in water) when something is burned to completion (ie ash).

Your body simply doesn't work that way.

Even taken that the calorie is a poor measure of food energy potential but using it as a convenient conversational description, "calories" eaten doesn't equal "calories" digested/absorbed then made available for energy production.
A whole endocrine/neurocrine network regulates the processes affecting how "calories" are used, and the efficiency of these processes depends on the availability of oxygen, vitmains/minerals and dietary co-factors as well as enzyme levels, biochemical status and physiological efficiency; all of which are affected by general health, eating patterns and physical training.

Until we consider ourselves at a level other than simple heat engines and move on from applying the principles of eighteenth century physics to the human body then there's little chance of really understanding how "we" function with respect to energy conversion, distribution and utilisation...........

I eat a healthy diet now as far as I am concerned. If you want to eat grains, that's up to you, I don't care!

I think my body is happy at 15% fat and that's more or less fine with me. I have decided to compete sailing next year so my weight is fine and I am lifting more weights now to get some strength and geneal conditioning.

The idave thing was the beginning of a journey for me and I am grateful to him for that. So much so that I don't feel too bad about the money that he apparently scammed from me.

My family and I have changed the way that we shop ( from the local farm now) cook (pretty much everything from scratch) and eat (more or less no sugar) for the better regardless of the diet doctrine tha you follow, that is a good thing..

As someone on here once stated, eat as much junk food as you like, just cook it all yourself!

oddjob - Member

The idave thing was the beginning of a journey for me...

I think that's the important point, I always thought of the "iDave diet" as a nudge in the general direction rather than a rigid list of eat and eat-nots 🙂

It works well as a strict diet if you are fat and needyo shed some weight. It only gets out far though and if you do some research, there is a lot of good advice out there ( assuming you ignore any advice to become a vegan)

oddjob - Member
It works well as a strict diet if you are fat........

I've often contemplated doing my own "supersize me" and putting on 10-15kg of fat just to see how well weight loss diets work but a bit too aware of the possible health risks to actually try it.

Just one of those "annoying" people who eat plenty but stay trim I guess, not having a sweet tooth helps mind you........

Okay, just an update everyone whom has emailed me so far should have a copy by now, if not let me know, cheers RJ

am i right in thinking that those on the idiet are still consuming less calories than 'maintenance', much the same as any diet?

Well not really. You can eat as much as you want on the iDiet, which is not the same as most diets. The principle is that WHAT you eat is more important than how much.

Just one of those "annoying" people who eat plenty but stay trim I guess, not having a sweet tooth helps mind you........

Seems to me that most people who can eat a lot and stay thin don't have a sweet tooth. I think that a 'sweet tooth' is a symptom of the particular metabolic profile that encourages people to gain weight.

Cheers RJ!!

My biggest problem is lack of routine, and a lack of lifestyle control. I'm a longhaul airline pilot, so have no set shift patterns or mealtimes, often miss nights out of bed, and sleep at strange times. I also suffer from a lack of willpower, especially in the middle of the night, flying back across the Atlantic!

IDave seems interesting. I like a list of Do's and Donts. I'll give it a go until Xmas and see how it goes. For the day off per week - is it really a completely free day, and a necessary part of the diet, or is it really just to keep you sane? Also, does it need to be the same day every week?

molgrips - Member
I think that a 'sweet tooth' is a symptom of the particular metabolic profile that encourages people to gain weight.

Yes, I think it's related to salivary amylase levels, (enzyme which breaks down starch to sugar in the mouth).

[b]Low salivary amylase and/or not chewing food[/b]
starches not broken down in mouth to sugar so you get less of a "sugar hit" from your food so still crave simple sugars. But, the unhydrolysed starch then gets converted to sugar in the gut (so has an insulin promoting effect), and as you've already eaten simple sugars for the "craving" you are in effect making your diet higher in sugar than you may think, insulin spikes; blah, blah, you know the rest....
[b]High salivary amylase and/or long chewing[/b]
More dietary starch is hydrolysed to sugar (ie glucose) in the mouth and absorbed directly via the oral epithelium giving an instant "sugar hit" body goes "aaaaah sugary goodness" but as you haven't had to eat anything inherently sweet to get the "hit" you never develop (or develop less) the psychosomatic link betweeen taste of sweetness and "sugar hit"

So in my view, low oral conversion of starch to glucose leads to developing a "sweet tooth" which may lead to insulin issues (ie spike/crash) - might even be a connection to breast vs bottle feeding as many milk formulae are higher GI than natural human milk (due to their composition rather than actual sugar content [i]per se[/i])

So kids fed on the teat who were taught to chew their food properly end up having less of a sweet tooth and fewer insulinaemic issues later in life ???

Increase in bottle fed babies and processed food fed infants together with the increase in "on the hoof" & "bite'n'swallow" eating amongst kids may be a major factor in the so-called "childhood obesity epidemic", so it's lifestyle as much as dietary content simply measured in calories and grammes that's important.......

simply_oli_y - yes thats the one. It deals with people like us who, mostly, arent looking to loose masses of weight but are looking to shed fat, not weight.

I would like to be leaner, but not necessarily lighter, partly for cycling and partly for climbing.

For the day off per week - is it really a completely free day, and a necessary part of the diet, or is it really just to keep you sane?

Yes, it's a vital part of the diet. Otherwise your metabolism adjusts to the new diet and reaches stasis ie you don't lose any weight.

Hilldodger - fascinating. Hadn't thought about that.

One might argue then in some cases for eating a small amount of simple sugars to promote satiety?

I noticed when strictly iDieting that I could eat tons and tons of compliant food and still feel ravenous - then one single biscuit or teaspoon of sugar in tea and I was fine. That small amount of sugar probably would not have much effect on insulin especially after a good meal of low GI food, but it would make one feel full and satisfied?

There might also be a role for low GI but sweet foods like chocolate, since they make me feel full but would have little effect on my insulin levels perhaps, after a meal.

I started doing it in May 2011 after creeping up to 12 1/2 stone - since august last year Ive been just under 10 1/2 stone and body fat around 8%.

Its now just how I eat - my biggest downfall is an amazingly sweet tooth so wednesday Ill have a flapjack and now I use the weekend as two days of eating what I want. Also without realising it two days a week Im kind of doing that fasting thing too as my calorific intake doesnt go over 1000 calories, so I guess that helps too along with commuting every day.

I cant actually imagine eating any other way now - I did 2 or 3 races this year with no carbs at all (water or high5 zero in the bottle) I can do 2 hours of hard (threshold) work on a turbo straight out of bed (climibng ventoux or racing bart bretjen on world cup courses!), Ive got a load more energy after reducing carbs, who's have though it!

am i right in thinking that those on the idiet are still consuming less calories than 'maintenance', much the same as any diet?

No. Hence the "sticking" at about 15% body fat, even though eating the same.

It works well as a strict diet if you are fat and needyo shed some weight.

If I eat whatever I like, I sit at a reasonably lean 70 to 75kg. Eating slow carb, I drop to a very lean 65 to 70kg.

I was doing well earlier in the year and shed c10kg nice and steadily without any real problems.

Then I went to see a doctor who told me I might have something grim, and I gave up my return to exercise and started mainlining junk food.

In the meantime, work has been very busy (60+ hours a week for c3 months) and Mrs North was seriously ill. None of this put me in the right place to pick it up again.

I put on nearly 15kg, so I'm heavier than when I started.

But..! I've recently found out I don't have the grim thing (as far as they can tell), so am free to exercise again (got back on the bike 4 weeks ago). Work has calmed down, so I can take time to eat better.

I'm ready to get right back into The Eating Plan That Dare Not Speak Its Name.

Bring it on.

Great! Now all you have to do is stick to it this time! The thing that worked for me was realising all the other massive health benefits that come with healthy eating [i]beyond[/i] the obvious fat-loss. Reading through a site like Marks Daily Apple will make you realise that losing weight is just a handy side effect! To be honest knowing now how what you eat affects your body/health, if I had bad news from the doc the last thing I would do is start eating junk food!! Obviously depends what the condition is, but all kinds of things can be helped by eating properly.

just sat reading this eating a huge portion of chickpea, chorizo, courgette, onion, tomato, celery, galic stew.
all guilt free......... 8)

emails still ignored, money still owed, not happy.

can't fault diet plan though.

humpff

The thing that worked for me was realising all the other massive health benefits that come with healthy eating beyond the obvious fat-loss.

That's why I do it, despite not needing to lose weight. My asthma's been loads better this year than previously.

SJ78.
Just write it off, I did.

HillDodger.
Good posts, thanks. You're a brave lad taking on the Cals in Vs Cals out crew. But I agree with you, FWIW.

Ton.
Thanks for the updates, glad you're enjoying as much of the benefits of being lighter, as you can. Long may you continue to do so.

🙂

EDIT:

Oh, and I still like Mr DeadlyDarcy's comment:
[i]Eat better, move around a bit[/i] or something along those there lines.

ourmaninthenorth - I've been in a similar position (however it turns out my back issues are grim, manageable but grim nonetheless. On the bright side though it's a fault of genes and not something I've done to it.

I've also been prescribed (along with some hefty NSAID's) lots of exercise, physio and yoga type stuff so I could end up healthier as a result of having a slightly ****ed up spine (at least that's the spin I'm putting on it anyway).

So far the this week has been good, and I've actually found getting back in the kitchen prepping/cooking meals etc to be quite therapeutic as the last couple of months dinner has usually consisted of getting something out of freezer and blasting it in the microwave.

It's also made the wife happier, as she gets to scoff the stuff I prepare rather than following my lead and nuking a packet meal.

so it's a lose/win/win kinda situation

Pea and ham soup this lunchtime.

chomp.... ankylosing spondylitis?

[i]Pea and ham soup this lunchtime.[/i]

Chicken and some green, pimento stuffed, olives. Here.

That's why I do it, despite not needing to lose weight. My asthma's been loads better this year than previously.

spot on Phil 🙂

as a fellow sufferer.... core work does wonders! the only time i get back pain now is when i push myself too hard at the gym or after a long day slumping at a desk.

dont want to end up like mum who's had half her back fused cos it was all crumbling away and disks slipping out all over the shop. my back, neck and sternum sound like one of those wooden fish you'd scrape a stick over in junior school music groups. last week i cracked my back and one bit popped so hard i blacked out and fell over 😯