[Closed] Thai cave rescue.

Sounds like it will be a logistical nightmare to keep them alive until they can get them out.

Amazing stuff.

Yes, great to get a result.

Just hope it's not Rick Stanton teaching them to dive, last I heard he still didn't hold a diving qualification of any kind.  Total legend tho.  🙂

It's an amazing story and reminds me a little of the Chilean Mine rescue of some years back where they actually drilled down an effectively 'elevatored' them out; that approach may not be practical here though.

Talking on the news this morning - possibility of them having to survive in the cave until October!

They're trying to pump water out, but it's something like 10000L every hour = 1cm of water depth. One rain storm and all that's done in seconds I should imagine.

The other possibility is getting scuba equipment through and teaching the boys to dive in the complete darkness conditions - I suspect that's what they'll try. Good luck to them all.

(Actually couldn't believe my eyes when I put the TV on this morning and they'd found the boys alive. 10 days they've survived down there!)

Pretty impressive that they got that far in to begin with (reports say 6 miles, is that true, in the dark??)

But finding them is not the same as getting them out, but amazing work by everyone there and good luck.

Being trapped in a cave system by rising water levels is one of the scariest situations I can think of.  Hope they can be rescued without having to wait for the water to subside

The mind does boggle as to why and how they got that deep into the system. I suppose it's likely they were forced further in by the rising water.

I wonder how long the submerged section is? It must be a significant amount of difficult diving.

reports say 6 miles, is that true, in the dark??

2.5miles i heard, still dark mind you!

The other possibilty is getting scuba equipment through and teaching the boys to dive in the complete darkness conditions – I suspect that’s what they’ll try

I suspect that's a very unlikely option given the British dive rescue team have described the dive as "gnarly" and have been using rebreathers.

It must be a significant amount of difficult diving.

Took the British team 3 hours to reach them apparently. How on earth do you teach someone to do that as their first dive?

I've just read the Guardian article on the rescue to date explaining the skills needed to get to them to the boys. Teaching the lads how to do that as their first dive - that is one serious undertaking. The alternative is no picnic mind; months underground in a confined space. Mentally that has to be tough that aside from boring things like sanitary issues and medical concerns.

I would imagine the coach will have a question or two to answer on his return to the surface (although keeping them alive and together to this point was a serious undertaking).

Took the British team 3 hours to reach them apparently. How on earth do you teach someone to do that as their first dive?

Even sending experienced cave divers back and forth carries a big risk to them, let alone the kids.

How the hell did they get so far into the cave in the first place and why did they go in during the rainy season?

Now that they've been found I guess it won't be too difficult to set up a CCTV link and maybe even a power supply. In theory they can exist there for a long time as long as their mental health holds out and none of them gets ill from bad sanitation. They looked pretty subdued in the TV shots so I wonder what mental condition they are in? They also looked pretty emaciated, as you would expect after 9 days without food.

last I heard he still didn’t hold a diving qualification of any kind.

Not sure if a Padi Open Water certification would be much use in that environment? 🙂

Amazing stuff, HTF they are going to get them out? I guess they would be looking at full face systems with comms and stuff. Rather than just a regulator. The logistics will be a nightmare.

The other possibilty is getting scuba equipment through and teaching the boys to dive in the complete darkness conditions

I guess if they can get SCUBA kit to them, getting lights to them will be high up the list too.

Awesome story, rich and compelling. I was thinking they could take a rope down all the way through to the cave, secure it somehow (maybe take some equipment to secure it) and then escort the lads out one by one where they would pull themselves along by the rope to the next air pocket and so on.

In situations like this you put your mind in the mind of the victims, how have they survived for 10 days, wondering if anyone was looking for them, wondering if one of them should attempt to make an escape, knowing that death is a very likely outcome for that person, which person should go, did they debate it? how did they toilet, would they risk having a poo only to watch it come floating past 2 minutes later, I suppose no food = no poo. but they must have thought death was inevitability and I'm sure they will all now be rescued.

I think the nippers have done well to be in apparently good shape judging by the video, no panic, shouting or screaming. Food, mental and physical health and sanitation must be priorities for the lads whilst the rescue team formulate an escape plan.

I wonder how confident the rescue team is of finding another way out? Other teams are exploring the area to find another way into the chamber.

Gripping stuff.

I guess if they can get SCUBA kit to them, getting lights to them will be high up the list too.

Yeah, I thought that, but the telly people keep going on about how dark it is!

I guess they would be looking at full face systems

That was my first thought - relatively easy to use those systems (although tiredness and the obvious sheer terror the kids will be feeling won't help matters).

And I heard that they were already making plans to get lights down there.

I assume where they are isn't at risk of flooding out?

I guess if they can get SCUBA kit to them, getting lights to them will be high up the list too

I'm sure they can get light into the caves but the actual dive is likely to be very dark. Basically swimming through thin mud. You can point you torch at your face, at arms length and not be able to see it.

Amazing story, truly thrilling.

I was a Divemaster and went cave diving once. Never. Again. I've dived in some awful conditions but what it demonstrated to me was that I wasn't keen on being constricted in squeezes in the dark underwater. It was exciting in that way i was worried I would drown in my own drysuit from the level of pee that was coming out !

Incredible story, some of these cave systems are absolutely epic (i did a few in NZ) but goodness only knows how they will extract them. Diving them out would be a marginal proposition I'd guess.

Wonder if drilling a la the Mexico mine rescue, is an option?

Surprised no one has mentioned the Darwin Awards yet.

Just watched the video. Very moving.

They aren't even wearing shoes!!!

I assume where they are isn’t at risk of flooding out?

I wondered that, given the BBC article mentions that this is the start of the rainy season. Would be particularly cruel if that happened now they've been located. Wonder if there is a safer area that could be found nearby.

It's hard to put yourselves in their (lack of) shoes but if it were me I'd be pestering the divers to teach me how to dive asap and gain as much knowledge as I could in the event that I needed to use it.

"Surprised no one has mentioned the Darwin Awards yet"

I'm not sure that applies in the case of a bunch of children being instructed by an adult.

What a story, as someone who's never dived I was sure it was just hyperbole when they said they might have to wait months to leave - if Divers get get in then Shirley it's *just* a case of giving them some diving kit and letting them follow the divers out yeah?

The story has given me a better understanding of what's actually involved!

Last I heard they're planning to get power, lighting and of course food down to them.

As dangerous as getting them to dive out is I can't see leaving them there for up to 4 months is a viable option and if the cave is at risk from flooding they might not have it as an option at all 🙁 I've not read anything in depth yet but it sounds more like a lot of disjointed areas with some diving between them required (which I guess also complicates the pumping option if there's not a continuous water flow from the entrance to where they are.

4 months worth of food. I suppose they will need to build their strength up if they are going to teach them to dive. Can't be the healthiest conditions down there, hope they can find a safer way to evacuate.

I was a Divemaster and went cave diving once. Never. Again. I’ve dived in some awful conditions but what it demonstrated to me was that I wasn’t keen on being constricted in squeezes in the dark underwater.

Utterly terrifies me. Can't begin to conceive what it would be like for a 10-year-old who can't even swim wearing a mask for hours in pitch darkness just following a rope. I hope a safer way in can be found.

Ok so roll with me here .... instead of trying to pump the water out, why not pump air in !?!

In those really tight parts (where the experienced divers had to take their equipment off??!!)... install a big, really robust plastic bags with airlocks either end ??

Disclaimer .... I can dive ..... and get a black wooden brick from the bottom of a swimming pool.

It’s an amazing story and reminds me a little of the Chilean Mine rescue of some years back where they actually drilled down an effectively ‘elevatored’ them out; that approach may not be practical here though

From memory one of the miners was having an affair and both his wife and mistress were waiting to greet him at the top😂

Report I heard was that they were planning on diverting streams etc. that feed the cave system so water from the rains doesn't go in. How feasible that is / how they know what streams feed what caves and so on, i don't know; nor do i know what happens if you divert a stream in the monsoon season (do you flood a village instead!)

In Apollo 13 style, and given there doesn't seem to be an imminent risk, how long would it take to invent an airtight 'parcel' - no arms and legs to worry about, the kids will all be smaller than an adult diver in scuba gear so presumably will fit through gaps so you need an air supply and CO2 filter, strap them into it and drag them out one by one.

if Divers get get in then Shirley it’s *just* a case of giving them some diving kit and letting them follow the divers out yeah?

Theyll need to come up with a time estimate to get a totally novice diver out, then figure out how the hell they get that much air into the cave (x13 + dive crew). There might be intermediate staging posts that can be used but the logistics exercise is still quite something. Plus, as mentioned above, following the leader gets really hard when you can’t see them

instead of trying to pump the water out, why not pump air in !?!

You are going to end pressurising them, even just 1 or 2 bar above ambient is going to cause decompression issues.

if Divers get get in then Shirley it’s *just* a case of giving them some diving kit and letting them follow the divers out yeah?

There's diving and then there is black water cave diving. Probably the hardest and most demanding diving. A bit like teaching someone to ride a bike and then sending them  down the Fort Bill D/H track.

My guess is that the teaching them to dive thing is a complete red herring. Only the "two best cave divers on earth" managed to get to them. There's no way they'll allow them to actively dive out.

I'm guessing the safest way is to truss them up completely so they can't m9ve and can't wriggle and can't take their mask off and then drag them through like a piece of cargo.

An utterly terrifying thought.

An utterly terrifying thought

Yep. But more terrifying than sitting and watching the water slowly rise....... put me in the bag, now.

Wonder if drilling a la the Mexico mine rescue, is an option?

I don't think so, they are in quite a small chamber and finding the corresponding location on the surface would be very difficult.  If they can narrow down the location, actually getting a drilling rig and kit into the jungle would be another challenge.  As far as I'm aware they are lookng for other surface entrances to see if they can get in from above.

They might have to decompress even now and the longer they stay there the worse it will be.  A normal SCUBA set up for a calm experienced diver might give you an hours air at most so if they are saying its a three hour swim out then they are going to have to change cylinders several times - not something I would fancy doing on my first dive!

instead of trying to pump the water out, why not pump air in !?!

Because limestone is full of cracks and therefore is very porous, the air would just seep out.

Similar problem with diverting streams, although it would help, a fair bit of rainfall is still going to seep through the rock and into the cave.

Absolute nightmare. I don't know if we are going to see a magnificent clever rescue, or a horrific slow ending.

absolutely terrifying for the kids, and sure to have a lasting impact on them

just hope to **** they can get them out safely

Have done some caving know have some idea of how it can feel, and a sump of a metere or so was scary enough

If only thoughts & prayers worked

As far as we know the group isn't in any immediate danger - not sure if the current water levels are at or close to their highest. If we assume that the water won't rise further then the safest option is for them to remain there and ferry food/supplies to them for the duration. At the same time trying to find an alternative, dry, route to their location.

Is the 3hrs access time the quickest possible? I.e. it wasn't just the amount of time they spent underwater searching before they found the group. Even if the egress route and time can be optimised that's for experienced cave divers, you can probably double it for novice divers having to be led. There'll be a safety line in place but you'd need a secure line between a rescuer and one of those being rescued as back-up.

A bag? What if it snags on a rock and develops a leak?

Don't think drilling has been considered as an option as the cave system is in a mountain -

Looks like jungle on the mountain...

Shame those divers won't get as much credit for finding the boys as they deserve... it'll be down to the "praying".

Putting the kids in a rigid cocoon with full face mask and towing them out is my (ill informed!) guess on how they will do it. As said above. make them safe, keep their arms bound so they can't move and take them out like cargo.

As an experienced caver of more years than I care to remember, and a member of the local Cave Rescue team I can confirm that bringing novices out with dive gear is indeed possible and has been done on several occasions, just not so many and not in such extreme conditions. A far more practice approach might be to send in some experienced divers and cave explorers with climbing gear to try and find inlet passages that get as close to the surface as possible from the inside. Assuming that an accurate survey exists for the cave already, it might then only need a very short dig to reach said passage from above. Trying to locate an infilled or narrow entrance in the jungle from outside really is looking for the proverbial needle, but if you knew there was a passage close to the surface and you knew pretty well exactly where it was relative to it then perhaps digging down might just be practical. We did similar in a cave system in S Germany. Not specifically for a rescue, but to allow access to the upper reaches of a flooded cave to allow easier exploration and as a back-door entrance in the event of a major rescue being necessary.

Shame those divers won’t get as much credit for finding the boys as they deserve… it’ll be down to the “praying”.

Really? Thais aren't thick, it's a Thai run operation that involves more than just those two British divers and Buddhists are usually good at recognizing the heroics of fellow humans. Besides that, those three British lunatics are in their element in those caves - they want to be there, they won't expect any thanks and they certainly won't have the attitude you have towards the locals.

My experience of Thai's, Burmese, Nepalese and Tibetans is that they are hard as **** and confident in their own ability to get a job done, because their religious beliefs grant them a certain fatalistic outlook towards life - they die when their time is up and there's no point worrying about it - they don't need to pray to god to keep them alive.

A bag? What if it snags on a rock and develops a leak?

You can get some very robust waterproof materials. Strong enough to hold a multitool, even.

White saviour complex?

I'd want to be sedated. Knock me out, put me in a box, drag me out.

It must be horrifying for the kids.

White saviour complex?

Nahhh, British cave divers are actually some of the best in the world. We have caves that are very ****ing dangerous compared to what a lot of cavers grow up with, the arrse thread covers this topic very well.

I was reading this earlier, although i know it was a Thai operation i'm sure these blokes would have been welcome.

British sumps have a grim reputation. In response to the Brit’s being impressed by his pushes, and the distances he explored – Olivier Isler once commented: “Here in the Dordogne, the passages are large, the water is warm & clear, so laying line here is easy. But I know in England the caves are very small, the water is very cold, and you cannot see anything. Those are very difficult & dangerous conditions.” That from a man who has broken World cave-diving records

https://cavedivinggroup.org.uk/british-cave-diving/

There was a good piece on R4 this morning (just played it back)... :
Bill Whitehouse from British Cave Rescue Committee

Kids 3km into the cave
Divers entered and swam upstream
Diving section was 750m flooded, 750m in an open chamber
Round trip in and out 3hrs
Suggestion was to "package the kids" and bring them out, which has been done before

I'm reckoning Tom hanks in the lead role as the guy in charge of the rescue operation.

It will be a Holywood blockbuster within 18 months.

Fingers crossed for all involved - I really didn't expect them to be found alive.

You can get some very robust waterproof materials. Strong enough to hold a multitool, even.

I lol'd.

Suggestion was to “package the kids” and bring them out, which has been done before

Mmm Thai takeaway.

Really? Thais aren’t thick

I'm not saying they are - there are just a lot of news stories prominently featuring praying. That's all. Have a browse.

[i]they don’t need to pray to god to keep them alive.[/i]

Nope, agreed. Those tough nut kids certainly didn't. They're amazing.

To be fair, if they get the out - it will make a ****ing awesome movie won't it?

I’m not saying they are – there are just a lot of news stories prominently featuring praying. That’s all. Have a browse.

Of course they do, because in developing countries that are also often at the mercy of nature, when times are hard the poorer classes do pray a lot as it's a source of comfort for when situations feel out of control. Especially for those who aren't involved in the direct rescue operation.

Thais are the last people that won't be offering thanks to the divers, the entire rescue team will end up being local heroes and there will be multiple dinners, invites by the families involved etc after all is said and done. They aren't yanks.

Criticising them for praying is a luxury westerners have historically only been able to enjoy, remember - countries like Thailand have modernised very very rapidly and still haven't modernised or hit our standard of living fully.

I've done a bit of caving and I've done a bit of diving. Enjoyed both as separate activities.  Cave diving is very low down on my bucket list, somewhere between eating my own testicles and having dirty cuddles with Jacob Rees Mogg,

Amazing to hear on the news they were found. Video of kids talking to divers showed them to be pretty calm. I agree with raybanwomble as I’ve had numerous trips to Thailand over the years they are tough people and will probably and quite rightly pray to Buddha for being alive but will know and dearly appreciate the humans that get them out and know they are responsible. Good luck to everyone involved.

As far as we know the group isn’t in any immediate danger –

must be a supply of fresh air in there, but still a concern,

also worries about water rising

9 days with no food in a cold damp cave, illness must be a serious concern at this point, espceially considering sanitation etc

So if there is a supply of fresh air their must be an unbroken link with the outside world (or is that just wishful)?

Guardian are reporting that the Thai Navy Seals have put out an appeal for x15 small full face masks and they will bring the boys out once they have developed enough strength

It’s probably limestone at least the climbing I’ve done up there was on limestone so probably flow of air somewhere but where and how big is the issue. I’d breath off dive tanks for a few weeks if it kept me alive.

I'm optimistic Kimbers - diseases and situations that make western kids keel over will be brushed off by those lads. Hardy immune systems and low resting metabolic rates means that if anyone can do it, they can. It was the smaller/skinnier ones that dropped last in the gulags.

Amazing story this, 1,000 people involved with the operation apparently!

Also read about the story of the friends going back to retrieve the 2 dead bodies in the Norway cave system, pretty amazing stuff (although it shouldn't have happened in the first place apparently)

Jeremy Vine doing his thing on Radio 2 now.

A bit like teaching someone to ride a bike and then sending them  down the Fort Bill D/H track.

......in the dark with a torrential downpour, with no pedals or handlebars.

Cave diving is very low down on my bucket list, somewhere between eating my own testicles and having dirty cuddles with Jacob Rees Mogg,

Yes I'd agree!

Also read about the story of the friends going back to retrieve the 2 dead bodies in the Norway cave system, pretty amazing stuff (although it shouldn’t have happened in the first place apparently)

You got a link for that?

Norway cave story, the movie is on Netflix (or used to be)

http://www.divingintotheunknown.com/en

Thing with the Norway cave is that it was a really deep dive

Do a search for "What lies beneath" about the 1967 Mossdale Caverns tragedy. Not cave diving - caves and water. But, be warned ...

Good BBC article on the Norway incident as well

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36097300

Good Sid Perou film here on teaching two cavers how to dive and rescuing them from a flooded cave

Here is one with a happy outcome involving diving non-divers out of a flooded cave. Having been down this cave I can only admire the bravery and fortitude of all involved, It is pretty committing caving even when not flooded to the roof!

🙂 30 seconds too late

Original discussion on here about the Norway dive

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fascinating-tragic-cave-diving-article-on-beeb-site/

Just to be clear, the clean air and water level thing are fully intertwined in a not very good way.

Unless it is utterly massive, the cave they are in must be connected with the outside world, otherwise they'd have succumbed to the rising co2 levels by now.

The bad news is that means that there isn't a set volume of air to resist the rising flood water when it does start to rain again.  So as the water rises, the air will leak out the top of the cave to maintain equilibrium.  It just depends whether the Thais can go up as far as the water levels can

Very much IMHO of course

Shame those divers won’t get as much credit for finding the boys as they deserve…

I don't think that there's any chance of that, at least over here.

I've just watched the BBC's report on the situation; the only mention of the boys was at the start and only in relation to the fact that they'd been rescued by British divers. We then had 5 minutes or so of one of the diver's Mothers being questioned by the interviewer with questions along the lines of how they'd cope with being international heroes followed by a second interview (again 5 minutes or so) this time with a friend and colleague who spent the whole time singing their praises (after being questioned about such by the interviewer); no further follow ups on the fluctuating situation were provided.

Don't get me wrong, they are heroes (as are all the divers that went in) and of course there's a British interest angle but they're not the story and there are also a whole heap of people out there working hard on this as well as the boys themselves; not great journalism imho.

A friend who lives out there just said it was interesting what other countries had sent over to help

USA - 40 soldiers
UK - 3 expert cave divers
China - Rescue Team

He's saying that their media is going nuts over the story as its making people forget about the elections going on over there