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As far as we know the group isn't in any immediate danger - not sure if the current water levels are at or close to their highest. If we assume that the water won't rise further then the safest option is for them to remain there and ferry food/supplies to them for the duration. At the same time trying to find an alternative, dry, route to their location.
Is the 3hrs access time the quickest possible? I.e. it wasn't just the amount of time they spent underwater searching before they found the group. Even if the egress route and time can be optimised that's for experienced cave divers, you can probably double it for novice divers having to be led. There'll be a safety line in place but you'd need a secure line between a rescuer and one of those being rescued as back-up.
A bag? What if it snags on a rock and develops a leak?
Don't think drilling has been considered as an option as the cave system is in a mountain -
Looks like jungle on the mountain...
Shame those divers won't get as much credit for finding the boys as they deserve... it'll be down to the "praying".
Putting the kids in a rigid cocoon with full face mask and towing them out is my (ill informed!) guess on how they will do it. As said above. make them safe, keep their arms bound so they can't move and take them out like cargo.
As an experienced caver of more years than I care to remember, and a member of the local Cave Rescue team I can confirm that bringing novices out with dive gear is indeed possible and has been done on several occasions, just not so many and not in such extreme conditions. A far more practice approach might be to send in some experienced divers and cave explorers with climbing gear to try and find inlet passages that get as close to the surface as possible from the inside. Assuming that an accurate survey exists for the cave already, it might then only need a very short dig to reach said passage from above. Trying to locate an infilled or narrow entrance in the jungle from outside really is looking for the proverbial needle, but if you knew there was a passage close to the surface and you knew pretty well exactly where it was relative to it then perhaps digging down might just be practical. We did similar in a cave system in S Germany. Not specifically for a rescue, but to allow access to the upper reaches of a flooded cave to allow easier exploration and as a back-door entrance in the event of a major rescue being necessary.
Shame those divers won’t get as much credit for finding the boys as they deserve… it’ll be down to the “praying”.
Really? Thais aren't thick, it's a Thai run operation that involves more than just those two British divers and Buddhists are usually good at recognizing the heroics of fellow humans. Besides that, those three British lunatics are in their element in those caves - they want to be there, they won't expect any thanks and they certainly won't have the attitude you have towards the locals.
My experience of Thai's, Burmese, Nepalese and Tibetans is that they are hard as **** and confident in their own ability to get a job done, because their religious beliefs grant them a certain fatalistic outlook towards life - they die when their time is up and there's no point worrying about it - they don't need to pray to god to keep them alive.
A bag? What if it snags on a rock and develops a leak?
You can get some very robust waterproof materials. Strong enough to hold a multitool, even.
White saviour complex?
I'd want to be sedated. Knock me out, put me in a box, drag me out.
It must be horrifying for the kids.
White saviour complex?
Nahhh, British cave divers are actually some of the best in the world. We have caves that are very ****ing dangerous compared to what a lot of cavers grow up with, the arrse thread covers this topic very well.
I was reading this earlier, although i know it was a Thai operation i'm sure these blokes would have been welcome.
British sumps have a grim reputation. In response to the Brit’s being impressed by his pushes, and the distances he explored – Olivier Isler once commented: “Here in the Dordogne, the passages are large, the water is warm & clear, so laying line here is easy. But I know in England the caves are very small, the water is very cold, and you cannot see anything. Those are very difficult & dangerous conditions.” That from a man who has broken World cave-diving records
https://cavedivinggroup.org.uk/british-cave-diving/
There was a good piece on R4 this morning (just played it back)... :
Bill Whitehouse from British Cave Rescue Committee
Kids 3km into the cave
Divers entered and swam upstream
Diving section was 750m flooded, 750m in an open chamber
Round trip in and out 3hrs
Suggestion was to "package the kids" and bring them out, which has been done before
I'm reckoning Tom hanks in the lead role as the guy in charge of the rescue operation.
It will be a Holywood blockbuster within 18 months.
Fingers crossed for all involved - I really didn't expect them to be found alive.
You can get some very robust waterproof materials. Strong enough to hold a multitool, even.
I lol'd.
Suggestion was to “package the kids” and bring them out, which has been done before
Mmm Thai takeaway.
Really? Thais aren’t thick
I'm not saying they are - there are just a lot of news stories prominently featuring praying. That's all. Have a browse.
[i]they don’t need to pray to god to keep them alive.[/i]
Nope, agreed. Those tough nut kids certainly didn't. They're amazing.
To be fair, if they get the out - it will make a ****ing awesome movie won't it?
I’m not saying they are – there are just a lot of news stories prominently featuring praying. That’s all. Have a browse.
Of course they do, because in developing countries that are also often at the mercy of nature, when times are hard the poorer classes do pray a lot as it's a source of comfort for when situations feel out of control. Especially for those who aren't involved in the direct rescue operation.
Thais are the last people that won't be offering thanks to the divers, the entire rescue team will end up being local heroes and there will be multiple dinners, invites by the families involved etc after all is said and done. They aren't yanks.
Criticising them for praying is a luxury westerners have historically only been able to enjoy, remember - countries like Thailand have modernised very very rapidly and still haven't modernised or hit our standard of living fully.
I've done a bit of caving and I've done a bit of diving. Enjoyed both as separate activities. Cave diving is very low down on my bucket list, somewhere between eating my own testicles and having dirty cuddles with Jacob Rees Mogg,
Amazing to hear on the news they were found. Video of kids talking to divers showed them to be pretty calm. I agree with raybanwomble as I’ve had numerous trips to Thailand over the years they are tough people and will probably and quite rightly pray to Buddha for being alive but will know and dearly appreciate the humans that get them out and know they are responsible. Good luck to everyone involved.
As far as we know the group isn’t in any immediate danger –
must be a supply of fresh air in there, but still a concern,
also worries about water rising
9 days with no food in a cold damp cave, illness must be a serious concern at this point, espceially considering sanitation etc
So if there is a supply of fresh air their must be an unbroken link with the outside world (or is that just wishful)?
Guardian are reporting that the Thai Navy Seals have put out an appeal for x15 small full face masks and they will bring the boys out once they have developed enough strength
It’s probably limestone at least the climbing I’ve done up there was on limestone so probably flow of air somewhere but where and how big is the issue. I’d breath off dive tanks for a few weeks if it kept me alive.
I'm optimistic Kimbers - diseases and situations that make western kids keel over will be brushed off by those lads. Hardy immune systems and low resting metabolic rates means that if anyone can do it, they can. It was the smaller/skinnier ones that dropped last in the gulags.
Amazing story this, 1,000 people involved with the operation apparently!
Also read about the story of the friends going back to retrieve the 2 dead bodies in the Norway cave system, pretty amazing stuff (although it shouldn't have happened in the first place apparently)
Jeremy Vine doing his thing on Radio 2 now.
A bit like teaching someone to ride a bike and then sending them down the Fort Bill D/H track.
......in the dark with a torrential downpour, with no pedals or handlebars.
Cave diving is very low down on my bucket list, somewhere between eating my own testicles and having dirty cuddles with Jacob Rees Mogg,
Yes I'd agree!
Also read about the story of the friends going back to retrieve the 2 dead bodies in the Norway cave system, pretty amazing stuff (although it shouldn’t have happened in the first place apparently)
You got a link for that?
Norway cave story, the movie is on Netflix (or used to be)
http://www.divingintotheunknown.com/en
Thing with the Norway cave is that it was a really deep dive
Do a search for "What lies beneath" about the 1967 Mossdale Caverns tragedy. Not cave diving - caves and water. But, be warned ...
Good Sid Perou film here on teaching two cavers how to dive and rescuing them from a flooded cave
Here is one with a happy outcome involving diving non-divers out of a flooded cave. Having been down this cave I can only admire the bravery and fortitude of all involved, It is pretty committing caving even when not flooded to the roof!
🙂 30 seconds too late
Original discussion on here about the Norway dive
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fascinating-tragic-cave-diving-article-on-beeb-site/
Just to be clear, the clean air and water level thing are fully intertwined in a not very good way.
Unless it is utterly massive, the cave they are in must be connected with the outside world, otherwise they'd have succumbed to the rising co2 levels by now.
The bad news is that means that there isn't a set volume of air to resist the rising flood water when it does start to rain again. So as the water rises, the air will leak out the top of the cave to maintain equilibrium. It just depends whether the Thais can go up as far as the water levels can
Very much IMHO of course
Shame those divers won’t get as much credit for finding the boys as they deserve…
I don't think that there's any chance of that, at least over here.
I've just watched the BBC's report on the situation; the only mention of the boys was at the start and only in relation to the fact that they'd been rescued by British divers. We then had 5 minutes or so of one of the diver's Mothers being questioned by the interviewer with questions along the lines of how they'd cope with being international heroes followed by a second interview (again 5 minutes or so) this time with a friend and colleague who spent the whole time singing their praises (after being questioned about such by the interviewer); no further follow ups on the fluctuating situation were provided.
Don't get me wrong, they are heroes (as are all the divers that went in) and of course there's a British interest angle but they're not the story and there are also a whole heap of people out there working hard on this as well as the boys themselves; not great journalism imho.
A friend who lives out there just said it was interesting what other countries had sent over to help
USA - 40 soldiers
UK - 3 expert cave divers
China - Rescue Team
He's saying that their media is going nuts over the story as its making people forget about the elections going on over there
Have the US sent 40 Navy Seals with cave diving expertise though? I know the Thai navy Seals have been mentioned but didn't know about the US.
Just to be clear, the clean air and water level thing are fully intertwined in a not very good way.
Unless it is utterly massive, the cave they are in must be connected with the outside world, otherwise they’d have succumbed to the rising co2 levels by now.
The bad news is that means that there isn’t a set volume of air to resist the rising flood water when it does start to rain again. So as the water rises, the air will leak out the top of the cave to maintain equilibrium. It just depends whether the Thais can go up as far as the water levels can
Very much IMHO of course
They'll be taking that into account, if they can't, then I should imagine the plan will revert to stretcher them out with masks.
absolutely terrifying for the kids, and sure to have a lasting impact on them
just hope to **** they can get them out safely
This sums it up for me. Can’t imagine what it must be like.
Have the US sent 40 Navy Seals with cave diving expertise though? I know the Thai navy Seals have been mentioned but didn’t know about the US.
Maybe not, but they will have the kinds of personalities needed to learn very quickly under heavy supervision from experienced cave divers and support the latter, who will probably form the tip of the spear.
I'd love to know how they are organising the operation.
If there was a time for these guys to show up it would be right now
Asking your questions to my friend over there
British Dive team had complete authority on it as they had the expertise.
Now the path is clear Thai seals are back in charge, Thai government wants to rush them out before friday due to all the seasonal rain that is due....
His opinion after living in Thailand for 10+ years, learning about their politics/government and teachings, the UK team has their praise but will be forgotten as soon as the kids are out and are already looking at pressing charges against the coach.
UK – 3 expert cave divers
As well as the 3 cave divers the UK has also sent over some very specialist bits of kit to help with the rescue effort.
As an aside I did wonder if any of the other cave divers had a prepared script ready of what to say if they found the children, knowing that it would be broadcast around the world: "Congratulations you have just been rescued by the United States of America" , "Looks like you guys could do with a MacDonalds supersize meal"..............
His opinion after living in Thailand for 10+ years, learning about their politics/government and teachings
Depends what kind of expat he is, a lot of them have huge attitude problems. I somehow doubt the families will forget them, remember though, they are part of a 1000 man team.
I think it's fairly telling of western attitudes that one of the first thoughts appears to essentially be, "ungrateful savages".
No one mentioned "ungrateful savages" except you as far as i can see.
He's over their teaching children science I think, previously working from a village (where he met his other half) looking after their elephants that they used on the guides, hardly like your common expat relocating to Spain/France etc
He definitely agrees with your huge attitude problem statement though :), apparently some westerners out there have the big old "white hard man" syndrome, they think they rule the roost. Kind of disgusting when some of the Thai's he's encountered have been nothing but accepting, helpful and incredible humbling.
If they package the kids up, would they also sedate them? I believe that cave rescue teams do carry sedatives to relax people (in order to get them out when they have become jammed and panic is stopping them from relaxing sufficiently to free themselves). Surely a similar approach would work if the children are packaged up (to avoid panic attacks etc) but obviously sedatives may not be appropriate to be used in conjunction with a full face mask.