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I work in Healthcare. I did 210 miles on Monday, same again Tuesday, and today I’ve done 83, I’ve at least a 230 mile journey tomorrow, and probably nothing on Friday.
So not over 250 miles 😉 Are you the exception or the rule?
I work in Healthcare. I did 210 miles on Monday, same again Tuesday, and today I’ve done 83, I’ve at least a 230 mile journey tomorrow, and probably nothing on Friday.
So you'd need to recharge at some time tomorrow if cars were all electric. But not the other days. There's a lot of "plenty of"s going on here.
all EV is is transferring the pollution
Well, what it's really doing is decoupling the vehicle from the power source. Then if renewables take up more of the generating load, transport automagically becomes more renewables based. If we suddenly crack the 'perpetually 10 years out' problem of fusion power or something else, the transport fleet benefits from that too. At the moment, if someone came up with a magic reactor or some other way of generating lots of power cleanly it would have pretty minimal impact on transport pollution.
I've just started working for Pod Point (EV charging company), so this thread is interesting.
If you have time, please watch this video with Robert Llewellyn and Pod Point's CEO discussing barriers to EV adoption.
nickc - what do you do in healthcare 'cos in my experience that is a very unusual mileage. When I was a district nurse I did under 30 miles a day. Our pharmacy delivery isw in an EV and he spends all day driving delivering stuff.
Hi Footflaps, I was being specific to two cars that are regarded as suited for longer distances. As I mentioned I have a 260 mile commute (270 when I go to the gym). Only 130 miles to work, but I want to not have to worry about what happens if there is an accident and I'm sat in traffic, do I have to turn the air con off, what if I'm re-routed etc.
I've nothing against them, in fact I would prefer to have one, but it has to meet my needs. My own opinion is for 90% of use cases, they would be ideal. My wife for example, she only does the town run around jobs - maybe 20 miles a day, then the current crop would suit her. But they are expensive. Why would I pay £27k for the Leaf? The BMW i3 retails at £33k, which is £10k more than I paid for a brand new Audi A3.
That's just too much of a difference in initial investment.
The way I see things is that the more drivers who have a need to use the infrastructure, then the more chance of investment in the infrastructure. The only that is going to happen is when the choice between ICE and ECV is similar on price point. Take the average person and give them the choice of £23k for an Audi or £27k for a Nissan, most would say the Audi I'd imagine.
Whilst EVs are still a pricy like for like, don't forget to take the £4.5k government rebate off the RRP.
Whilst EVs are still a pricy like for like, don’t forget to take the £4.5k government rebate off the RRP.
Yep and then you have the actual running cost, it's higher but should drop off much faster. Just signed up for a car share scheme here in Manchester there is no mileage rate for the electric vehicles just the hourly rental.
Mileage per day?
10min walk Tuesday- Wednesday..
Monday & Thursday 220 round trip.
Weekend, varies a lot.
Hence why I chose a Hybrid.
Doesnt prove anything, I’m not the target audience for an EV.
You can always cast your view forwards and say “if/whatabout and when”
Reality is, being pragmatic, today... not tomorrow, not the day after that and not looking backwards either.
Thats the point, it’s today you should be focusing on that and not trying to point out “but you do xxx, so you should buy an EV” Whilst not owning one yourself...
As I mentioned I have a 260 mile commute (270 when I go to the gym). Only 130 miles to work,
Could your employer not fit chargers as part of green incentive?
Thats the point, it’s today you should be focusing on
Thats not really how things change.
The Zoe is quite a bit cheaper than the Leaf; ours is £250/mo which is worth it for the remote preconditioning and de-icing in winter alone... 🙂
We used to do 50 miles a day so ours saved us a packet on fuel - overnight electricity was a tenth of the cost of petrol per mile. We've since moved closer to work so while we can charge it at home, most of the time we could get by with a weekly 45 minutes on a charger in town, where we go pretty much every week anyway.
I hope to never have to run an ICE car again. The Zoe has its downsides right now - slow charging being the main one - but batteries are only going to get larger, chargers are only going to get faster and more numerous, EVs are only going to get cheaper and the electricity grid is only going to get greener, so while they may not suit everybody right now it's only a matter of time before it becomes a no-brainer IMHO.
From what I read Tesla are certainly about to lose their first mover advantage to the mainstream manufacturers. For instance I read a review yesterday comparing the Jag iPace to the ModelS. Same sort of price, performance, range. The Jag came out on top since it was perceived to be better built, you get access to dealers etc..
Mainstream manufacturers are also surpassing Tesla in some ways
lower cost high range cars - new Nissan Leaf
800V charging - VAG group. Porsche Taycan available with 800V charging available next year
Lots of dealers
Ability to keep up with demand
Better know brands
Investing more in EV's and charging infrastructure than Tesla
Hence I see Tesla still being successful but in a smaller manufacturer way.
This isn't a comment on how popular EV will become and their pros/cons (which seem dominate this thread) but a comment on Tesla
Thats the point, it’s today you should be focusing on that and not trying to point out “but you do xxx, so you should buy an EV” Whilst not owning one yourself…
Well having not owned a car for nearly 3 years I reckon I'm not in the market to buy ICE or EV, I'd happily try and use EV as a hire car right now as it would happily cover my needs most of the time.
Part of what this thread shows is how many myths there are, from the majority doing massive miles every day etc. along with the assumption that everyone does what you do. I reckon if a lot of people had a decent think about it and could swap they would find an EV does everything they need.
Tesla was niche, then tried to make it to the big time. I think they're never going to take on the big guys but what they have done is put a massive spotlight on EV's and start some real social change and that is highly commendable. Say what you like about Tesla and Musk but without them do you think EV's would be where they are today?
Now Europe has put deadlines in place for the end of petrol & diesel there is the impetus from the mainstream manufacturers to pull their finger out and up their EV game. EV's are increasing their market share and I believe in the next few years they'll start to hit the point where volumes generate economies of scale and they drop to a more competitive price. The flip side of that says they are at a competitive price already and when the oil-burners drop out of the market we will all have to get used to the fact that stuff isn't as cheap as it used to be.
Personally I think Tesla will stay the size they are and make money from the other technologies they have around infrastructure and batteries.
ps - I'm hoping that in a few years and 100k miles time there will be a fully electric version of our family car that'll do 300 miles on a charge.
@mikewsmith, I know right! I don't know what I'm worried about really 🙂 I know my work based driving is the exception rather than the rule, and this week is madder mileage than most weeks (although not by much if I'm honest). I reckon this (or maybe next) will hopefully be my last internal combustion engined car. I looked at them 2 years ago when I changed last, but they were honestly just too expensive, I struggled to find a lease agreement for my mileage that was a sensible monthly cost, and i was (if I'm honest) worried about mileage capability.
@tjagain, I'm a regional manager, I've community contracts and GP practices all over the North, I do a lot via conference calling, but face to face is still how the vast majority of my staff and colleagues want to see me, and I get pulled into all sorts of meetings by Trusts and CCG that could be done more productively (IMPO) other ways. Some are much better than others, the Welsh for instance have great video-conferencing facilities. It's changing, but not as fast as it could I think.
Ta nickc - hardly a typical community healthcare worker then
Ability to keep up with demand
Can they, though? The demand for the Hyundai ioniq has been massive but they're built in tiny numbers; the newer Kona is getting very good reviews but they plan to build only (IIRC) 18,000 a year worldwide which is nothing. The iPace is the same, they're building them in absolutely tiny numbers compared to Tesla and their Model 3 now, let alone if Tesla do what they say they will and end up at 10,000 a week.
Theoretically the established companies can build cars quickly but the bottleneck is batteries right now; Tesla make their own in much larger quantities than anyone else so have a very large head start.
The most difficult thing about owning an EV right now is buying the damn thing because the waiting times are enormous. The demand is there, but Tesla are currently the only ones doing anything about it.
Ta nickc – hardly a typical community healthcare worker then
No, not typical, but not unique either.
The demand is there, but Tesla are currently the only ones doing anything about it.
I’m really not sure what you mean by that. All the big names are producing, increasing the the amount the produce or planning to.
@phiiiiil I’m sure that the established players in the market are having problems with getting enough batteries although I possibly have more faith that outsourcing batteries will for some of them be more succuessful than Tesla. Jag are getting their batteries from Toshiba I beleive and seem to think that they will be able to supply to meet demand.
It's still early days for e-cars.
If the manufacturers could collaborate to standardise on battery size & shape, it would be possible to swap batteries at service stations in the same time it takes to refill a fuel tank, probably faster. Smart power metering would allow you to pay for just the extra charge on the replacement full battery. Give it time.
it would be possible to swap batteries at service stations in the same time it takes to refill a fuel tank, probably faster.
Again which problem is that solving for most journeys? Battery swaps is an interesting idea but only if your doing over 300 miles in a stretch, given that is about 5hrs of driving it's about the right point for taking a decent break.
From here in Manchester 300 miles gets me to the south coast or just about Ft William
It's solving the problem of rapid recharging away from a suitable power source. It would work for the longer journeys, and for those people who live in flats & park cars on the street. So the infrastructure change would be minimised.
800v chargers will give 80% of a 300-350mile range charge in 15mins I believe. 15mins every 250mile sounds absolutely fine to me. These chargers will be available next year.
All the big names are producing, increasing the the amount the produce or planning to.
Are they though? Hyundai admitted they didn't contract for enough batteries for the ioniq, so for the new Kona they... order hardly any batteries. At their current rate of production Tesla will build almost twice as many cars annually as Jaguar, total, not just electric. Everybody thought the new Leaf would have a 60kwh battery, but then it comes out with a 40kwh one instead. VW have said they are constrained by battery supply. Toyota, having given up on fuel cells, are now wanging on about "self charging hybrids". Most companies are introducing hybrids, but nobody has really grasped the nettle and invested much of their own money in the one big bottleneck.
I'm sure the third party suppliers will get there at some point and things will really start moving - there is a lot planned for 2020 - but Tesla are there now.
"Toyota, having given up on fuel cells"
800v chargers will give 80% of a 300-350mile range charge in 15mins I believe. 15mins every 250mile sounds absolutely fine to me. These chargers will be available next year.
Yeah but who can spare 15 mins in 5hrs of driving!!
@snaps: fair enough, I assumed based on all their adverts for hybrids and the fact that they've been trying for years and you can still count them all on your fingers 🙂
They're currently having difficulty in their largest market, California:
While Tesla managed to ship 16k units last month it should be noted that ford sell roughly 2500 f series pick ups per day in the us alone.
It is an impressive start from Tesla but they are still a novelty/prestige item for now. If any of the majors can come up with a car at a sensible price it will be a game changer.
hydrogen and solid oxide fuel cells were bullshit for cars since they were proposed.
do you think EV’s would be where they are today?
largely nowhere, still a small niche? Yes. EV's will happen for the masses, it'll just take another 10/20 years to fully catch on.
Yeah I’m postive they’re upping production they’ve pretty much all stated they would. For example.
I think they’re never going to take on the big guys but what they have done is put a massive spotlight on EV’s and start some real social change and that is highly commendable
Wasn't that the point of Tesla in the first place? I seem to remember reading that Musk had the intention of making their technology open source anyway; hence, effectively killing off Tesla as a primary manufacturer. Aside from that, I've always had the impression Tesla were a fly-by-night operation; at least as a car manufacturer.
"800v chargers will give 80% of a 300-350mile range charge in 15mins I believe. 15mins every 250mile sounds absolutely fine to me. These chargers will be available next year."
While it's a nice tag line are you really going to purposefully shorten the life of your battery life by using that service ?
Yes, as for me and most people it would only be required very intermittently, home charging would cover 99.99% of my needs. Ofc EV (in their current form) aren't suitable for everyone but they're already at the point that if you've got the money to spend on a high-end EV then range anxiety isn't really a factor for most people anymore and it's only going to improve & get cheaper.
all EV is is transferring the pollution
so if the range and charging issues that people seem anxious about means people use their cars a little less casually and configure their lives a little more carefully in terms of where they live and work... then everyones a winner. Even if the power being generated isn't any cleaner.
The power generated is a bit cleaner over all - given the amount of renewables now available ( and nuclear if you count that as clean 😉 )
Yeah I’m postive they’re upping production they’ve pretty much all stated they would. For example.
I'm sure you're right in that they're making the right noises and going in the right direction, but they could be going a lot faster. That article even mentions that VW don't know if they will have enough battery supply to serve the southern hemisphere at all, and also mentions the 12 month waiting list for the e-golf which, while apparently a very good and popular car, they have stopped selling altogether while they come up with their newer ID range in a couple of years time.
It seems everybody is planning to mass produce EVs in either 2020 or 2022, although in what numbers remains to be seen. How many Teslas will be on the roads around the world by then?
I wouldn't like to guess whether Tesla will remain a small brand or become a mass manufacturer in their own right when the transition eventually happens, but I definitely don't think they're going away.
Golf E proved to be extremely popular so they peaked their planned production way before they expected. It’ll be interesting to see how the ID range performs, it’s what I’ll be looking at.
This thread is funny. People arguing from so many misconceptions my thumbs simoly cannot cope with the typing required to respond on my phone 🙂
molgrips earlier
Looks like it could be going private at a fair premium.....
TESLA have a huge market cap for a company which has never made any money and have no IP.
They have a product which is no longer a concept a great pr team and quite rightly the investors want to know when they are going to see returns. People aren’t giving their money to improve the world they are investing to make money. Trouble is Elon does not like it when these questions are asked.
going private will take these conversations out of the public eye but they will still need to be had.
As long as the offer he's making is real, and not just a way of showing off on Twitter. I see the share price has gone up, which is nice for Musk and is a two fingered salute to all the short sellers, but if he's making it up...He could wind up in Jail...
Makes a lot of sense, the whole quarterly earnings cycle is a huge distraction for a growing tech company and does detract from long term focus..
We'd also benefit from the sale as the wife and I both own Tesla stock indirectly via SMT, which is 5% Tesla at the moment.
Makes a lot of sense, the whole quarterly earnings cycle is a huge distraction for a growing tech company and does detract from long term focus..
for sure it is distracting but when you have a market cap which makes you probably in top 5 car companies by value in the world you stop being a playhouse and have to live up to the investors expectations. Sadly many of these expectations may be unrealistic as the PR team at Tesla has been so good compared to all other EV cars
but when you have a market cap which makes you probably in top 5 car companies by value in the world you stop being a playhouse and have to live up to the investors expectations.
Tesla don't set the share price, the investors do based on their expectations for the future; which may be wildly out. They have only themselves to blame if long term the share price doesn't live up to expectations. Despite what people think of EM personally, Tesla have been pretty up front about cash, sales, revenues etc; so there is no grand deception going on, just normal wild investor exuberance with a 'tech like' stock. EM has on a number of occasions said the share price is over valued....
well the soaring share price will have shafted a lot of short sellers and that might have been Musk's intention - as to Musk tweeting that he has secured the funding to delist - if not 100% fact then could well be a US Securities law violation and not a small one
..and Tesla never had a quarterly earnings cycle only a quarterly negative cash flow report
it'll be text book when its all over