In my kids' secondary school the kids have substitute teachers in some subject or other most days, who aren't prepared for the lessons. It's chaos.
Everything. Is. Totally. ****ed.
How's that for a Labour campaign slogan?
I will just say that the NHS here anyway remains utterly fabulous for actute stuff. I had investigations to exclude bowel cancer as i was in sub acute obstruction. 2x xrays, 2x scans, one urgent appointment with the surgical team. all within a week or so. then they found a cyst on my heart. Consultant appointment within a couple of weeks to check that out - benign and not worth operating on
its stuff thats non urgent just gets shoved to the back of the queue and never dealt with
Don't know why, but I seem to have a totally different perspective to the NHS. I didn't even know who my doctor was when my thyroid decided to go into overdrive 2yrs ago. Fast referral to RVI Newcastle, asked to participate in a clinical trial and since then have had direct access to one of the best professors in his field; to the point where he emails me to check on progress between monitoring appointments. I've been in the care of an absolutely fantastic team, despite the trial finishing 12 months ago. There doesn't appear to be much wrong here.
Plus, all three grandkids, 20, 16 and 10 are experiencing what appears to be a fulfilling education, all doing well, eldest at Uni. And that's in Carlisle, as far oop north as it gets really.
There doesn’t appear to be much wrong here.
So you had a good experience - great. Just because you didn't experience the bad stuff, doesn't mean it's not happening.
My daughter was refusing any and all injections, including vaccinations. How the **** was I supposed to get help for that? Things that could have far reaching consequences in the future. Do you think medical professionals have time to work on that when they're flat out dealing with urgent cases? We managed to work through it eventually with some help and some money. Not from the NHS, because I couldn't figure out how to get it and realsied they have all the urgent things to deal with.
Plus, all three grandkids, 20, 16 and 10 are experiencing what appears to be a fulfilling education, all doing well, eldest at Uni. And that’s in Carlisle, as far oop north as it gets really.
Good grief. There will always be kids doing well, who will succeed whatever the situation. But you should spend a week in my wife's school and see how the system is failing those at the other end. You have NO idea mate, seriously.
Most of the people I talk to in the clinics seem happy enough. I don't think I've heard anyone twisting about the standard of care they've received. I lost both parents and a sister recently, different causes, same excellent care and case management.
C'mon man, I'm sharing my experiences, as are you. Just providing a bit of balance.
Brian - thats the sort of stuff its still good at. You were acutely ill. The NHS responds well to that. If you have a chronic or non urgent issue its fubar. also being on a clinical trial gives you priority.
French tax is notoriously high but doesn’t seem too bad for a noticeably better quality of life (roads and railways that work for example). I pay 23% of everything I earn as the French equivalent of national insurance - health care, social cover, pensions* etc. Actual tax (not in a higher tax band) was a few % more. Overall less than 30% but on total income rather than having a tax free allowance. Where we live council tax equivalent is about 40% of the home we left in England. *Pensions are about double UK state pension. So swings and roundabouts.
Employers pay a lot of tax in France - you can reckon 1.45 x wage (UK 1.11 x wage). Payroll taxes go towards things like local transport. French productivity levels always seem like a mystery to brits but I suspect that you think carefully about employing people and automate as much as you can to get value for wages.
Anyway, it’s interesting and whenever my friends complain about the government I point out how much worse it could be if they were across the channel…
Good to hear that it works for some!
I was referred to the rheumatology clinic in Oct 2021. In 2 years since, I've had one appointment plus a 10 minute telephone consultation. I went private for an MRI because I couldn't face an extra year's wait for painkilling medication. I fully support the NHS but it's absolutely screwed down here.
Fair enough tj. My wife's coeliac, that's chronic and non-urgent, but she has robust follow up and monitoring from her doctor. I'm really sorry that I can't prescribe to the mantra that everything's screwed, in my limited experience, and my wife's a paediatric nurse with an opinion also; all this criticism of the health service is playing into the hands of populist government and privatisation IMHO.
I have been both a patient and a nurse and I can tell you its far worse now than at any time in the 40 years I worked in it. Figures also back that up. 1 in 10 of the UK population on a waiting list for treatment
People sneering at New Labour not being proper Labour need to give their heads a wobble. Who were the best two PMs over the last 40 years? Can you imagine the carnage if the 2008 financial crisis had happened on the tories' watch?
Can you imagine the carnage if the 2008 financial crisis had happened on the tories’ watch?
I imagine that it would have been incomparably worse if it had occurred under a Tory government.
Better than the Tories does not mean that New Labour were "proper Labour". In fact it was precisely to make the distinction that they insisted on calling themselves "New Labour".
Besides certain right-wing policies New Labour implemented would have been harder for a Tory government to implement, eg, Labour in opposition opposed, without exception, every single privatisation carried out by Tory governments, however when New Labour were in government there was no one to oppose their privatisations.
New Labour did with complete ease stuff which the Tories would have struggled with due to parliamentry opposition, including going to war.
I see both sides of the NHS here.
The good bits via my parents, particularly my dad who is riddles with cancer and is 84 so always in and out. Mum is younger but has suffered with a lifetime of illness that has ravaged her, she looks like she's 75-80 when she's a good decade younger. Their care is great with little waiting times and the staff doing whatever they can to help but the cracks due to lack of funding and services just not being there is very obvious.
The bad bits are my side. Cannot get a GP appointment as there aren't any appointments available. Haven't had a dentist for nearly 12 years now as there's no space anywhere for me. I have lived with two cracked teeth for well over 5 years now and nothing has been done about them, they're starting to rot now and it's only a matter of time before they need urgent work. I have two or three other things wrong with me right now that aren't being dealt with at all due to me being unable to access the NHS service at all. One is being dealt with via my local pharmacy but they're struggling with all the people coming to them, thankfully the practitioner is an ex-GP so can get access to stuff that other pharmacies can't, without that I'd be lost for healthcare access.
I have little direct experience of the education system and everything to do with kids but from what friends and family tell me it's on its knees.
Everything is completely broken and about to totally collapse.
Everything. Is. Totally. ****.
How’s that for a Labour campaign slogan?
The press would somehow turn it into Labour admitting it's knackered and it would somehow end up being their fault!
The fundimental reason for higher tax burden is that we have an aging population who aren't working and need lots of expensive care. This will continue to be a larger and larger issue and not one either party can solve unless they bump the retirement age right up, shoot some old people or something else equally unappealing.
Comparison to the 50s when almost no one retired isn't really relevant, comparison to other European countries is better.
I don't think France is working particularly any better than here. The roads which are better are really expensive and trains are hardly cheap. There is a huge amount of poverty, inner city deprevation and violence. It's a nice place at times, but doesn't have a particular edge over us
I will say it again its the "Minford" grand plan... 10% well off, 20% ok and 70% piss poor... its a long term project more or less being delivered on plan.
I don’t think France is working particularly any better than here. The roads which are better are really expensive and trains are hardly cheap. There is a huge amount of poverty, inner city deprevation and violence. It’s a nice place at times, but doesn’t have a particular edge over us
Trains are much cheaper in France. Much. also more modern and fast in general. all countries have issues and none are perfect.
France also has a much better functioning health service and far better cycling provision.
I did write out a long explanation about tax payers not funding government etc.
But here is a much better explanation of where we are:
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1679390628608901120?t=25MBa8l-jXgWHQ9-4ngzLw&s=19
The state comes first via government spending- that generates the growth. We are on the arse end of 40 years of believing that growth occurs from the private sector and thus creates more tax to spend. That's impossible, as the private sector can't create the pound. Only the monopoly currency issuer of the pound - government and the BoE can do this. The private sector can only swill around what has been spent into existence by the government.
Both political parties misunderstand (perhaps deliberately) the purpose of taxation. Taxation deletes money from the economy. All government spending is new money creation. The government neither has nor doesn't have money - it's spent into existence via the consolidated fund (the government's current account.) At the BoE.
There is no mechanism that allows your taxation to reach that account for spending.
So it follows, taxation is the system that gives the government power to create demand for its currency. You need pounds to pay your tax.
Tories and tax cuts - well that's another joke isn't it. Cutting tax doesn't generate growth, impossible - as the investment that a company would make is already tax efficient and 100% deductible. Cutting tax just causes more hoarding of money.
The Tories managed - during the period we call austerity to actually spend a fortune on something. There was technically no austerity. Just cuts for most of us. This is the issue with the Tories, they wield the public purse like a capitalist bully pretending there is no money for the rest of us whilst doling out the cash for their mates.
We are simply not getting private growth or anything like a proper green spend if the government tries to balance its books. The act of balancing books leaves no net public money in economy.
Political will and resources are the only limitation.
we have a health service that does a great job, could it do better, yes, but it’s still functioning for the many
From my own family's recent interactions with the NHS I'd say it's a mixed picture at best.
Some services, in some areas are functioning adequately, others have broken down or are in the process of doing so.
It's a geographical and need based lottery. Things might seem to be working fine if you happen to only need something that conveniently happens to be available in your area.
NHS dentistry is all but a fictional concept at this point.
On a recent thread, Someone flippantly pointed out that health insurance was the obvious solution (for the individual), that is precisely the mindset the Tories want the great unwashed to adopt.
Worst of all I am concerned that even a two term+ Labour government won't be able to fix the NHS now.
Schools are in a similar situation, we've managed to land our kids in a good one (so far), but the problems of being starved for funding and spiralling workloads are again driving good staff away from the the profession and/or into the private sector...
I hear Truss is still popular with the party core, and she likes to talk about small government and 'Growth' but the party has laid waste to healthcare and education, two key pillars for growth you would have thought, it's looking increasingly like they've set their sights on knackering infrastructure too so you have to ask when is enough, enough?
I can't imagine why anyone would vote Tory at the next GE other than outright spite or simple stupidity...
This will continue to be a larger and larger issue and not one either party can solve unless they bump the retirement age right up, shoot some old people or something else equally unappealing.
Tax rich pensioners. Or more accurately, tax wealth above a certain threshold with no exceptions based on age.
Worst of all I am concerned that even a two term+ Labour government won’t be able to fix the NHS now.
They have no intention of doing so. they have made that clear. Streetings answer is more privitisation. He is a paid shill for private health companies
We no longer have a labour party in anything but name
Tax rich pensioners. Or more accurately, tax wealth above a certain threshold with no exceptions based on age.
I am quite happy with this even tho I personally would lose out greatly. the concentration of wealth in the hands of the already rich is disgusting and the fact I can create more wealth for myself simply because I own property at the expense of people without assets is utterly absurd ( and I mean wealth in assets not income)
I do what I can to be decent about this and to provide a high quality home for someone at vaguely reasonable cost. IN the last 3 years I have forgone around £10 000 in profit I could have made at the expense of my tenants.
All that said the wealth I have is far less than many folk. Our whole society is geared towards this- concentrating wealth in the hands of the wealthy which is why we have such an unequal country. Its disgusting that a country as rich as the UK has such amounts of poverty in it
I find the best way to think of things is not in tax but in net earnings as gives a better perspective.
Let's say, as an example I earn a nice round 100,000 and pay a nice round 40,000 in Tax/NI (checks johndoh is not on the thread)
I could look at it that I am losing 40,000 of 'my' money each year or I could look at it that I am earning 60,000 a year.
Just think about the latter and what a fortunate positon to be in rather than moaning that the government is taking all my money.
Tax rich pensioners
Yeah that'll work, how many rich pensioners are there? Probably not many, and any that are, are money savy, being rich they tend to be, and will find multiple ways to minimise the tax. What a great way to piss off those who actually arent contributing to the growing problem as theyve saved to look after themselves.
The reality is we have an ever growing number of economically inactive people and no funds for them (unless we can convince the world Rone is right and money is all an illusion). The massive cost of social care is whats in part to blame for the collapse in infrastructure, money yhat would have gone back into things which last is being used to support people to live.
Some stark choices coming down the road and no politician is prepared to make them so we are aimlessly walking a catastrophy. My generation is going to be a nightmare when we retire, interest only mortgages, mortgages well into our 70s, more people renting, no pension provision, living on consumer credit. All driven by government failure to manage the cost of living. Ever increasing taxes are not the answer, sorting the property market out so house prices reduce would be a good start and in effect a tax on wealth.
Just think about the latter and what a fortunate positon to be in rather than moaning that the government is taking all my money.
Personally, the being taxed bit isn’t the problem. It’s the fact it’s being so poorly managed and spend, and in a lot of cases directed straight into the pockets of Tory donors.
Yeah that’ll work, how many rich pensioners are there? Probably not many, and any that are, are money savy, being rich they tend to be, and will find multiple ways to minimise the tax. What a great way to piss off those who actually arent contributing to the growing problem as theyve saved to look after themselves.
Actually its a huge number and they have hoarded wealth that is no longer churning around the economy.
Ever increasing taxes are not the answer, sorting the property market out so house prices reduce would be a good start and in effect a tax on wealth.
Which would target those pensioners like me hoarding wealth. Get the flip on with it.
What a great way to piss off those who actually arent contributing to the growing problem as theyve saved to look after themselves.
It's taxing based on the ability to pay, rather than age. There are working people (and many poorer pensioners) struggling to feed themselves and their families, while some rich pensioners are living the high life. Yes, they may well have worked their arses off to have that wealth... but others are working their arses off to stay afloat. Tax based on ability to pay. Reaching a decent age shouldn't exempt you from paying your way.
I want lower taxes because it feels like what tax I do pay gets squandered and syphoned off to Tory cronies.
If it was used effectively and efficiently to improve the country, I’d happily pay more tax.
In simple terms, this.
Tories saying I'll pay less tax - yeah right, do one. Labour / another party saying I'll pay more tax to sort out the mess, bring utilities, public transport etc back into public ownership, fund council investment etc - you have my support. I'd be paying to have some hope, something the tories have long proven they won't offer anyone but their donors and the 0.5%.
He is a paid shill for private health companies
Wes Streeting has said about using the private sector
"No doubt the next Labour government may have to use private sector capacity to bring down NHS waiting lists, and I won't shirk that for a minute to get people better health outcomes.
"But I will be pretty furious at the costs involved, because it shouldn't be the case that because Tory governments run down the NHS, we have to spend more taxpayers money than would be necessary in the private sector because we haven't sorted out the public sector."
When you say things like "he's a paid shill" it makes you sound like a conspiracy nutter and obscures any rational discussion that we might want or need to have about how we provide healthcare that is free at the point of care over the next decade or so to catch up with the needs of patients that are increasingly elderly and have complex needs who have been otherwise let down by the last Tory administration.
If after years of a Labour administration and we're all having to shell out exorbitant co-pays or fund our own private medical insurance, then yeah go for it, and call individuals anything you want, up until that point, let's try at least to be rational.
The title of this thread is incorrect and needs changing to Tax & the Politicians
The Labour leader vowed to reintroduce the top tax band for the country’s highest earners last September. Starmer criticised Conservative ministers for making the “hugely divisive” move of handing out a tax cut to the well-off.
But in an interview with the Telegraph, Starmer then suggested he wanted to lower taxation, but was not “looking to the lever of taxation”. Labour says it is still committed to scrapping non-dom tax status and cracking down on tax avoidance.
They have also rowed back on the commitment to tax the rich more committing to keep the current top tax rate
People sneering at New Labour not being proper Labour need to give their heads a wobble.
I hope that wasn't aimed at me - I'm certainly not sneering.
I’m really sorry that I can’t prescribe to the mantra that everything’s screwed, in my limited experience, and my wife’s a paediatric nurse with an opinion also; all this criticism of the health service is playing into the hands of populist government and privatisation IMHO.
Well no, we just need to make it clear WHY everything is ****ed. It's because Toryism ****s things up.
Nickc. Streeting ( and a few other labour politicians as well as loads of tories) are paid by private health companies to advance the cause of those private healthcare companies. Private healthcare involvement is always more expensive and does not increase capacity. There is no justification for more privitisation which is what he is saying he will do. Because of the numbers of folk now having to use private healthcare there is now significant waiting lists for private as well
Call a spade a spade.
It's always tax cuts rather than wage rises.
It’s always tax cuts rather than wage rises.
Well yes in many ways thats basic economics. Increase wages = increase inflation
They have also rowed back on the commitment to tax the rich more committing to keep the current top tax rate
i know we've had this argument many times, but if you really are rich, it's unlikely that you'll be paying the 'top tax rate'.
but if you really are rich,
But what do you mean by 'rich' 😉
Well yes in many ways thats basic economics. Increase wages = increase inflation
Utter bollocks. You're right though, it is basic economics, very basic economics to the point of not of having a clue. 🙄
FD - I imagine you're referring to the long discredited Phillips Curve.
Wage rises can be inflationary and can be done without inflation. It depends on many other factors which it is including who gets the wage rises
But what do you mean by ‘rich’
For the purposes of Tax it is anyone who has a lot of money and not paid via PAYE so they can choose whatever options are best to limit their tax burden whereas those of us on PAYE cannot do that.
Imagine if PAYE didn't exist and we all got paid cash in hand. How many people who moan about wealthy people dodging tax (including me) would probably be dodging a bit themselves....
to me rich is the top 10% of earners plus those who have large amounts of wealth stashed away
to many folk its those who have a higher income than them - no matter what percentile you fit in
so if you earn £100 000a year you are in the richest few % of the country but you may well not realise that and think rich only applies to those earning £250000 pa whereas if you earn £20 000 pa anyone earning £50 000 pa seems rich
to me rich is the top 10% of earners
Hmm. I'm in the top 10% of earners and whilst I am currently comfortable and grateful for that I don't think a 3 bed semi in a suburban housing development is where rich people live, generally.
But as you point out, rich is hard to define.
It does mean you are richer than 90% of earners tho. thats precisely the point I was making. "rich" is always those significantly richer than you same as "old" is at least 10 years older than you are
