Does anyone, other than her own self image, give a shit what Liz Truss thinks about economic matters?
Its frankly terrifying how many Tory MPs (and pretty much the entire membership) still believe her prognoses that she was right all along but it was some vague unspecified wokerati that sabotaged her. I believe such rabid socialists as the Bank of England are part of this sinister left-wing plot
the wait to see a GP is because the Govt refused to invest in
hospitalsgeneral practice
Fixed that for you.
One of the problems is that most of the work is done in General Practice and yet most of the attention goes on hospitals.
I thought a large part of it was that GPs are now having to spend a lot of time with chronically sick folk who previously would have been in hospital getting fixed?
My GP still offers a fine service including on the day consultations. waits for routine appointments are a week or so
However I’m aware we can’t, as the money has to come from somewhere
Wealth taxes
If governments are serious about raising funding, then this is how it should be achieved. The majority of the financial stimulus issued during the pandemic has been absorbed by the wealthy and used to push up asset prices. This needs to be recovered back to HM Treasury to balance out the tax burned across the population.
It wouldnt take much to put a small tax on anyone with assets over £10m to achieve a large tax intake.
I cant remember the actual rate, but Sunak pays a lower tax rate than the majority of the population.
Both main parties have discounted the idea....
I was trying to think of something they hadn’t broken yesterday, and I couldn’t come up with anything. And yet a sizeable proportion of our fellow subjects are prepared to vote for them. Why?
They've not broken our Sovereignty - although they have sold it to the highest bidder
What they dont get is their idea of tax cuts doesnt tally with the lived experience of most of us. We want income tax thresholds raised significantly, income tax rates reduce, VAT reduced, etc. Coporation tax, CGT, inheritance tax, the 45p tax rate doesnt make a jot of difference.
Also is tax the issue, highest tax levels since records began whilst services are down the toilet. It cant just be the money that is the issue, we could throw a load more at public services but it clearly wont make much difference.
we could throw a load more at public services but it clearly wont make much difference.
Actually it would make a huge difference. Ask any teacher, healthcare professional, policeman etc etc
IN the health service you can map waiting lists against funding very simply andanyone who has worked in the NHS can see this easily. Most of my time in healthcare was under the tories with continual cuts - yes real cuts ( I was inold age care - one of the cindarella services. We lost several % of our budget year on year) Under labour we had expanding budgets - guess what - after a year or two of increasing budgets stuff got better
One of the problems is that most of the work is done in General Practice and yet most of the attention goes on hospitals.
But if the Tories had invested in the Trusts our workload wouldn't be anything like it is now, was my poorly worded point, but I accept yours as well. (I'm a PM at an inner city GP practice)
Since getting elected in 2010, the Tories have broken:
The military
Yeah, nah. Defence was broken long before that due to very expensive conflicts that required investment in kit that when said conflicts were recovered from existing funding.
Add in absolutely ineffective civil service and wasteful procurement processes and ineffective leadership.
To blame the state of defence in 2023 on one government, ignoring the reality of the problem is naive at best, and absolute bullshit at worst.
I get ideological loyalty, but apply that mindset to this let's a lot of very useless people off the hook.
Actually it would make a huge difference. Ask any teacher, healthcare professional, policeman etc etc
The problem with "investment" these days is that money is seemingly clawed back at a later date.
MY impression with the military stuff is it suffered from the classic politicians desire for BIG THINGS - so money spent on aircraft carriers we do not need and we have no planes for - etc etc but not on body armour and stuff the boots on the ground actually need. All politicians of all parties like BIG THINGS! to stand in front of for photo ops
Reasonable assessment mr Mandalorian?
I think we're taxing the wrong things. Also, the tax system is way too complicated.
What we should do is tax increases in wealth. So, if anybody has 2x what they had last year, they get taxed on it.
This is much fairer and would bring the rich and poor closer (metaphorically).
Aircraft carriers probably a poor example TJ.
This government has buggered up the big stuff as well the “little” stuff (ie the workforce). The military haven’t escaped the Tory dream of paying less and expecting more.
MY impression with the military stuff is it suffered from the classic politicians desire for BIG THINGS – so money spent on aircraft carriers we do not need and we have no planes for – etc etc but not on body armour and stuff the boots on the ground actually need. All politicians of all parties like BIG THINGS! to stand in front of for photo ops
Reasonable assessment mr Mandalorian?
Ish. The contracts for the new carriers was signed in 2007, Brown's labour government after Blair got ousted.
The decision to get rid of the Harriers and other carrier borne aircraft was a Conservative government.
But they may be the mouth pieces, don't forget there are very senior officers and civil servants that advise and influence and in some cases direct policy and decisions. But yeah, senior leaders love big statements. I could post a dozen pictures of various Defence Secretary's standing in front of shiny kit with a shit eating grin but they're often joined by a red-tabbed officer and/or senior civil servant. (apologies to any CC bods, I just have a very low opinion of some of the procurement clowns I've had the displeasure of working with).
This government has buggered up the big stuff as well the “little” stuff (ie the workforce). The military haven’t escaped the Tory dream of paying less and expecting more.
It was from a Labour government that the Tories inherited a £30bn overspend with very little to show for it and defence has been paying the price ever since. Add in years of overspend to get kit fit for the conflicts that ole Tony set us upon, money which is clawed back one way or another.
All the other points people are making about the Tories are valid and I won't disagree, but on this one area it it's disingenuous to pinpoint one party for consistently failing Defence, I appreciate that's hard for some to accept due to their strong ideological beliefs, but it doesn't make it any less true. When money 'needs to be found' defence it's where it's found from because we have no unions, we have senior leaders that have to play the game or they get sacked. It's the easy option for all politicians regardless of party.
What we should do is tax increases in wealth.
More or less, yeah. Wealth tax, Inheritance tax, gains tax, unearned income tax (eg dividends). But like I said, people who barely have a pot to piss in will vote for these to go down, either because they mistakenly believe that one day they might pay them, or else they like being close to the bottom end of the economy, so long as they can point and laugh at someone even worse off.
Wealth tax a gain is only a gain when it’s materialised, otherwise we’d be kicking folk out their homes that have doubled/trebled in value over the last few decades
Dividend income allowance has dropped and dropped from £5k to £1k this tax year, and then taxable inline with income tax
And?
I would be caught out by ut with two properlies that have increased in value 10x.
Properly ownership in this country is totally fubar with it acting to transfer money from poor to rich.. i rent out one of the properties for below below market rent. Its so absurd that i could borrow enough money using the rent as income if i actually squuzed every penny out of my tenant to buy another property which would then get me even more money.
I get richer by doing nothing simply because i have capital. Capital i have not earned but that has been created by house price inflation.
It stinks to high heaven.. it shouldbe taxed highly
To blame the state of defence in 2023 on one government, ignoring the reality of the problem is naive at best, and absolute bullshit at worst.
I'd certainly agree that defence has been a mess for years, under governments of all colours. But the Tories certainly haven't improved things, and their manpower cuts and increasing reliance on outsourcing really haven't helped.
Again with the idealogical gash. Defence has shrunk consistently under every political party as has the outsourcing increased.
For the sake of this discussion I'd ask you park defence. You can try all you want to use it as leverage for a political viewpoint but it simply doesn't stand up as one party being particularly shit.
On this topic I despise all of the parties for the damage they've had a hand in creating making the job I loved difficult, sometimes pointless and the lives lost while they're ****ing about around the edges with senior leadership complicit in the ****ery.
There are much clearer and irrefutable examples of their failures were there are no mitigating circumstances or shared responsibility.
I did make it clear that it was all politicians imo
I did make it clear that it was all politicians imo
I got that TJ, I'm sure others will try and flog that horse.
Defence is an easy political target, civvies don't give a shit about defence on the day to day unless they have a reason to. Why would they?
On the average day it doesn't influence much at an individual level, unlike health, education, taxes, etc. They're of far greater importance to the average bod and have daily impact on their lives.
As I say, I'd park defence as an example of Tory ineptitude, it's not like the list is short. 😂
It cant just be the money that is the issue, we could throw a load more at public services but it clearly wont make much difference.
Have a look at the real terms cuts suffered by local authorities over the last decade. Yes, money is the issue, when they have statutory obligations to fulfil.
As I say, I’d park defence as an example of Tory ineptitude, it’s not like the list is short. 😂
Lolz
Have a look at the real terms cuts suffered by local authorities over the last decade. Yes, money is the issue, when they have statutory obligations to fulfil.
Aye, when you've created the conditions for failure like they have you can't then call out ineptitude.
Local authorities can only piss with the cock they've got, if you've caused a micropenis you can't be annoyed when they get piss on their fingers.
Edit for @dissonance very apt point: if you possessed one iota of integrity you'd not look to blame. But they don't, so they do.
Aye, when you’ve created the conditions for failure like they have you can’t then call out ineptitude.
Of course you can!
So long as you lack anything like a conscience or the idea of being held accountable for your actions.
Indeed its often a good plan to get in the accusations early since then them trying to hold you to account looks like sour grapes.
The problem with threads like this is they just turn into some leftist blue sky thinking topic, reading some comments you'd think mainland Europe are the pinnacle of public services and efficiency, i've not seen that broad spectrum, i've seen similar overall issues throughout the EU, we can moan and blame Brexit and the likes, but reality is we're still as joined up with the world than we've ever been, and the world is having a real problem, no matter if it's governed by the left or right.
We had in my lifetime 18 years of the tories, who in that time destroyed themselves, then we had 23 years of labour, who in that time destroyed themselves, we've now had 13 years of the tories again, and they've yet again destroyed themselves in that time, i'm not holding out great hope for widespread change with Labour if they win, but i do feel they'll start well, then complacency and nepotism will slowly destroy them like all others before them, it's why i just get bored of seeing the blame being all about the tories, because the minute they're out of power, we'll still be in a mess for a generation to come, we'll not have all that dream stuff that populist politicians are going on about, because the reality is we can't afford it, can't maintain it or just can't actually reach that level.
i’ve not seen that broad spectrum, i’ve seen similar overall issues throughout the EU,
I suggest you open your eyes then. It is undeniable that western Europe has public services far better than ours and far less poverty and higher benefits and pensions
reading some comments you’d think mainland Europe are the pinnacle of public services and efficiency
I don’t think that, and can't see why you would, either. It’s obtuse to argue that our public services are not worsening, regardless of what may be the case elsewhere.
We had in my lifetime 18 years of the tories, who in that time destroyed themselves, then we had 23 years of labour, who in that time destroyed themselves, we’ve now had 13 years of the tories again
i had a lot of fun in the noughties but did I miss a decade?
Well.. see the thing is, the Labour we had was 'New' Labour, which was a major shift away from previous Labour principles. I think that was a response to the previous Tory victories. So in a sense, even though they weren't in power, they were still dictating how the country was run.
I'm hoping that if Tories stay dead for a long time Labour will have the chance to take control of the game, and we can see some meaningful changes. I'm talking about 20, 30, 40 years now, not just a Starmer administration.
it’s why i just get bored of seeing the blame being all about the tories
It really is the Tories, but not even this lot - it goes back to 1979 I think. That was a seismic change in Britain.
It may not be the pinnacle, but when I can get a train 3 times the distance across Europe for less than a return trip to London from Leeds, I'm thinking it's much ****ing better than what we've got.
Some friends of ours went inter-railing to Croatia not too long ago. One of them has spent all their life working within the rail industry here, I'd say his opinion is an informed one, and he spoke very highly of it.
I’m hoping that if Tories stay dead for a long time Labour will have the chance to take control of the game, and we can see some meaningful changes. I’m talking about 20, 30, 40 years now, not just a Starmer administration.
Not a chance of that mate without electoral reform and without a new leftish party. Labour have moved so far to the right and the right wing now hold all the power in the party having got rid of anyone vaguely left of centre. the right wing having captured the party are not going to let that power slip from them
We now have a far right party and a centre right party in England. there is no significant left wing party
Well.. see the thing is, the Labour we had was ‘New’ Labour, which was a major shift away from previous Labour principles.
The hair splitting over new labour as a way to ignore failings on the red side is exactly the same whataboutery that the Tories use.
Just own it, labour dropped a bollock, created the conditions for ****ery too. Nearly did it again with those momentum cokeheads.
Edit: cokeheads was better than loons.
The hair splitting over new labour as a way to ignore failings on the red side is exactly the same whataboutery that the Tories use.
Whoah there, I'm not absolving anyone of blame. I'm just talking about when the next big shift is coming - because New Labour wasn't it.
I'm more aligned with Old Labour but I'm not suggesting we go back to that.
I get the feeling that a lot of public spending these days is for contracted out services, so into the pockets of donors rather than actual front line services.
Not a chance of that mate without electoral reform and without a new leftish party.
Word. Liberalism is dead in UK politics.
you’d think mainland Europe are the pinnacle of public services and efficiency
In comparison to what we've got after 13 years of austerity, I'd settle for functioning. I don't necessarily want the best of the most efficient, just service that do the basic thing that they're supposed to achieve, and right now, I don't think any one could point at a public service in the UK that doesn't have some sort of major systemic failure associated with it.
I get the feeling that a lot of public spending these days is for contracted out services
Wouldn't be as bad if we actually saw full value for said contracts.
See PPE scams, not fussed if their mates get the money, defo fussed when they fail to produce without accountability.
In comparison to what we’ve got after 13 years of austerity, I’d settle for functioning. I don’t necessarily want the best of the most efficient, just service that do the basic thing that they’re supposed to achieve, and right now, I don’t think any one could point at a public service in the UK that doesn’t have some sort of major systemic failure associated with it.
Where exactly are you setting the parameters, we're far from being in a disfunctional country, we have a health service that does a great job, could it do better, yes, but it's still functioning for the many, same with education, even transport, what we need is continuous improvement, not famine and feast, and we need changes that aren't just at the political level, we change parties and politicians all the time, but the permanent structure that supports them rarely changes.
Where exactly are you setting the parameters
Northern/Western Europe, I think.
, but it’s still functioning for the many,
Its really not. I recently got listed for a routine consultant appointment - a year+ wait and that is in Scotland which is outperfoming england. 1 in 10 of the UK population is on a waiting list for treatment. Many will die before they reach the end of the queue
We now have a two tier system where anyone with money goes private and those without go without.
Deliberate tory policy to create that of course as many of them are bribed by private healthcare companies. Shame Streeting is as well and is going to continue in the same way
It looks like it's functioning if you don't need any services. I've got kids in school, it's definitely struggling. My wife is a TA in a primary school in a deprived area, it's clearly fundamentally ****ed. They've got under-trained teachers with no proper skill or resources in how to actually get the best out of kids, and the head has no budget to do anything about it and has to spend all her time dealing with pastoral care issues instead of working out how to teach kids better even if she had any money.
As for the health service - my kids have had mental health issues, I've not even bothered to go to a GP because we cannot get appointments, and they're so far down the list of priority cases they wouldn't get seen ever even if we had a referral so there's no point in even bothering. So yeah it's failing.
I rode today down on the levels and the drainage ditches are full of rubbish and domestic appliances. There should be law enforcement dealing with it but they just don't have the resources to deal with non-urgent stuff. And the council doesn't have the resources to go and clean it up.
I don’t think any one could point at a public service in the UK that doesn’t have some sort of major systemic failure associated with it.
Bingo. Absolutely everything is ****ed, and hanging on by its fingernails. But the well off just don't see it because they aren't exposed to it.
but it’s still functioning for the many, same with education
Not sure that's true. I suspect education is right on the precipice. I used to have a good number of teacher friends, but almost all of them have left because of the working conditions - directly from underfunding leading to overworking. Add to that literally crumbling schools and the latest figures reporting 22.5% of students missing 10%+ of their lessons and it's hard to argue it's functioning for the many, imo
