^^^^
which is why the 1% can get away with paying **** all, as the 99% argue about whether they are rich or not.
No not really, the rich get away with it because their income does not come via PAYE, which means they can be creative with it. They aren't the only ones who evade tax, but the impact is a lot bigger.
Exactly. As a PAYE person what option do I have (not that I am saying I want any) to dodge tax. I can max out my pension and other benefits but not much else whereas if I were getting the same income from elsewhere I may have all sorts of creative options at my disposal.
Yeah that’ll work, how many rich pensioners are there? Probably not many,
We’re rapidly approaching the point where there will be more pensioners than anyone else, plus this places a greater burden on health and social services. Reduced numbers of people of working age is detrimental to the economy - either you increase taxes to businesses and individuals or grow the economy and increase immigration. Paradoxically, the Tories have managed to increase the tax burden, whilst flat-lining the economy, reducing the number of workers and destroying public services - quite an achievement!
It's all a bit pointless whataboutery but I generally stick to the following rules on wealth/class etc...
Poor - Struggling to pay for food/bills/rent and having to rely on debt/benefits/crime or take multiple low paying jobs.
Working class - Having to work for a living with no other form of income or safety net (eg bank of mum and dad, significant savings etc)
Middle class - Need to work for a living but with the security of non-work income and the flexibility to choose when and where to work.
Rich - Not having to work (even though you might choose to) because you've already got enough money to live.
I'm somewhere between working and middle class by these definitions. I'm certainly not rich even though I'm in the top 10% of earners.
We’re rapidly approaching the point where there will be more pensioners than anyone else, plus this places a greater burden on health and social services.
don't disagree with that but the numbers of pensioners with significant liquid assets is small, and shinking. A lot of them have expensive houses (difficult to tax), large defined benefits pensions (taxed at payout already), but few are really making money in other ways. You can ramp up inheritance tax, sure, but the vast vast majority of pensioners have very little, and the number of rich ones is dropping as pension changes mean most of those hitting 60 have much less than those hitting the same age 15 years ago.
5lab - tax the hoarded wealth then even if its in the property.
I’m somewhere between working and middle class by these definitions. I’m certainly not rich even though I’m in the top 10% of earners.
that is the most bonkers statement I have seen on wealth on here. top 10% of earners and barely making it into middle class?
Its just illustrates my point that no matter the wealth you have ( and you need to take into account assets as well of course) you never feel rich even when by any objective standard you are
Yep and by those definitions I am closer to working class as I don't have non work income or the flexibility on where to work.
Odd definitions and a bit irrelevant on what is "rich". It is all perspective though isn't it as tj says. I don't really feel rich but I a clearly am compared to someone working on minimum wage.
that is the most bonkers statement I have seen on wealth on here. top 10% of earners and barely making it into middle class?
Yup. A mortgage, energy bills at ridiculous levels, two kids at college, the general cost of living doesn't leave much. Certainly not enough to build up significant savings. If I lost my job and didn't find another within a couple of months I'd be utterly f***** (unlikely thankfully). I've got quite a bit of equity in the house like most people who've been home owners over the past 15-20 years but that's not much use for supporting a family. I'm not complaining, I'm very comfortable compared to most people but that's because I work and I'm lucky enough to have a decently paid job. Take that away there's not much else.
This country is still class obsessed isn't it. We need to get over that, or talking about what 'rich' means. Makes no difference whether I'm relatively a bit better or worse off compared to you if we're both using the same train network or sending our kids to the same state schools. We exist in that world and not the world created by and for the most wealthy.
Someone said something memorable once about how the most successful societies are where children of manual labourers and business owners mix in the same school and the wealthy use public transport. And how paying fair taxes was seen as an honour, you're proud of the extent your success benefits others (back to the earlier point on how it depends what the govt do with those taxes). Sounds utopian compared to the mess the UK feels like it's in and has been in as long as I've been aware of any of this stuff. It does happen to some extent but the UK's always been upwards-obsessed when it comes to class. I blame having a royal family but that's another thread..
All this division and class stuff is no more helpful than the culture war stuff that gets dredged up. Same divide and distract results. We're all born into different situations and have different paths in life, it's mostly a problem when we begin treating people differently or denying opportunity to people because of it.
If we're to have a global economy where the world creates a situation that someone can benefit from to the extent of being worth 100s of millions, billions even? Pay the world something back, damnit.
top 10% of earners and barely making it into middle class?
Well it's because as you say the distribution of wealth is so unequal. I mean, the graph of people per income band is not linear. There's a huge chunk of 'normal' people of varying degrees of wealth, and then there are a very few properly rich people with many times more money than the people even a short distance further down the scale.
it’s mostly a problem when we begin treating people differently or denying opportunity to people because of it.
Which is why it's still important. The working class get absolutely shafted in this country, the middle class are largely left to stand on their own two feet, and the rich are completely pampered and supported by the state to get richer. If there wasn't this unfairness in what different groups of people get out of the state then no one would care that much about what group they were in or how much tax they pay.
which is why the 1% can get away with paying **** all, as the 99% argue about whether they are rich or not.
Politics in the UK is all about this ^^
40 million people could vote for a government which could change everything.
Instead people bicker if they want a Blue/Red government (both main parties are broadly the same), and are distracted by blaming the poor, immigrants, China, or who they are working class whilst owning their own house.
@dazh, while I agree, on the point about use of 'class' to describe people maybe I see it differently as I don't care much for the inverted snobbery or actual snobbery that can come with it. All I care about is that we have a government who do pander to the most wealthy and support anyone who's helping create the division and false blame that the rest get bogged down with.
If there wasn’t this unfairness in what different groups of people get out of the state then no one would care that much about what group they were in or how much tax they pay.
On that point, yes I expect more happily socialist countries will be less class-aspirant or simply wouldn't talk about 'classes'. But I think culturally the UK has long been about upward class aspiration, something that's not all the same as just wanting to be successful. But that's just a perception, subjective stuff. Right now I can't think of a healthy and fairly socialist society that uses class to talk about people. Class is part of the divisions we have in the UK.
Working class – Having to work for a living with no other form of income or safety net (eg bank of mum and dad, significant savings etc)
Middle class – Need to work for a living but with the security of non-work income and the flexibility to choose when and where to work.
Rich – Not having to work (even though you might choose to) because you’ve already got enough money to live.
I think you could really stretch some definitions, but those categories are really out-dated. I guess technically a lot of us could not work and rely on the benefits system for an existance - perhaps that makes us all rich? however the standard of living you want means you have to work - so we're all working class. The above definition would mean most people raise through the classes as they age, which isn't the case.
the most successful societies are where children of manual labourers and business owners mix in the same school and the wealthy use public transport.
there's probably some merit to this - if you live outside of london the majority of richer folks will pay the majority of the taxes and yet the poorer folks will tend to make the most of the services. This will always distance the payers from those getting value, and create a divide.
I think its different in London etc because things like public transport are used by pretty much everyone
however the standard of living you want means you have to work – so we’re all working class.
The traditional definition of working class is if your only source of income is selling your labour to employers. That definition still holds for most of us, with the caveat that a lot of us have a small amount of savings to fall back on and equity in a property which we could ultimately sell. In reality though working is the only option, so that makes most people working class. Of course there are poor working class and well-off working class people within that but it's still a useful description of where people are in the economic hierarchy.
Like I said before, I think we're doing tax wrong.
If public services in Glasgow (for example) are paid for by the wealthy of Richmond, why would they care if it's any good?
The people of Richmond only care if their local service is any good (assuming they need it).
The reason people are poor in Glasgow is down to the crappy prospects in that area (excess labour supply), not the fact they pay 20% income tax, instead of 10%.
People are better off in Richmond 'cos they live within 20mins of a £100k/yr job in the city.
Have a read of the Rebel Accountant book about tax havens and offshore wealth.
Or, check how rich you are here:
https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i
What has changed in the last couple of decades is the emergence of MEGARICH ie people who own 100m yachts, have their own private bankers, 10 supercars. Own an oil company etc. There's probably less than 10,000 of these people globally, but they have ludicrous amounts of wealth.
This country is still class obsessed isn’t it.
I think this country thinks its the only country that obsessed with class, when in fact you can go to any community on the planet and the habitants there will be able to tell you the societal pecking order. In that respect; we're still group based primates, and it's hard to break that programming
if you live outside of london the majority of richer folks will pay the majority of the taxes and yet the poorer folks will tend to make the most of the services. This will always distance the payers from those getting value, and create a divide.
I think its different in London etc because things like public transport are used by pretty much everyone
Do the rich pay the actual gross majority and do the poorer actually use more cost and services?
Genuine Q - I don't know. I suspect if subsidies or tax breaks to private schools, the amount spent on roads and car use and things like that are included it's not that clear. The perception that it is the way you say creates divide but I think that may be just perception.
The other way of looking at it can be, feel grateful if you're able to earn enough to pay higher rate taxes and be happy that those less well off get the support needed - society takes all of us to participate, takes a whole society to create a system that some profit greatly from and we can't all be winners in the rat race. oc all that assumes the tax is spent well .. I don't believe we have that right now but I also won't claim to understand the system. I just see the growing gap and don't believe the trickle-down BS.
In that respect; we’re still group based primates, and it’s hard to break that programming
Totally. Plenty of other countries are this way. People want to be successful and provide for family. But being selfish at the expense of others is only what I think happens in larger societies under pressure (real or manufactured/perceived), something about how groups behave as they get larger?
Do the rich pay the actual gross majority and do the poorer actually use more cost and services?
Difficult to define but according to the ONS you need to be in the top 40% of household incomes to be a net contributor, obviously depends on personal circumstance so a low income household with no kids and healthy people could be a net contributor but in general terms more than half of the population are net recipients. Of the net contributors they also end up paying for a chunk of services outside the state, e.g. private health care, dentistry, possibly education etc. Those in the top 20% pay more tax than everyone else combined (and remember most of them are not uber wealth but PAYE wage slaves)
Like a few others on here I'm in the top 10% of salaries, I don't feel rich and according to Daz I'm working class as I don't have any other income to fall back on, I rely on my PAYE income. Like everyone else I'm at the mercy of the terrible state of public services, had to fork out £4k for an operation for my son earlier this year after waiting for 6 months for an initial NHS consultation which we still haven't had a year on from diagnosis. It does grate when I see how much tax I
pay for such terrible services.
Until I see a government capable of providing some level of service for the tax I pay I'm definitely not up for paying anymore.
Until I see a government capable of providing some level of service for the tax I pay I’m definitely not up for paying anymore.
I think this is the crux of the issue, high(er) tax isn't nessesarilty a problem, assuming it's spent properly and efficiently, and without skims being taken off the top at every opportunity, and big contracts being awarded to lobbyists/political donors.
Public Vs private healthcare is a good example.
Liquid paracetomol suspension for a dog, prescribed by a vet = £20 odd quid.
Bottle of calpol from tesco (same frigging thing for arguments sake*) = about £3.50
*some artifical sweeteners are toxic to dogs, Xylotol, for example, so you have to be very careful.
I do love how these threads go a bit mental on here, not only are we pigeon holing people by their P60 statement, or that mainland Europe is indeed the land of plenty, or that there's a fair few on this thread who state they're in the top 10%, so rich, which means they're secret squirrel tories, it's just a load of stereotypes and lets blame the tories and the rich yet again, i'm away to read the britain is a third world country thread again to cheer me up some more 🤣
