Figured this might well deserve a separate thread -
At the conference today both Liz Truss & Jeremy **** Hunt have said the want tax to be cut as it's too high.
Across the country every single government organisation is cutting back & services are suffering because of this. Where is the additional money going to come from to sort the mess out?
Or am I missing something?!
Basically the conservatives are in an ideological bind.
They've not had any new economic ideas since neoliberalism and supply side reform (Reaganism and Thatcherism), and that's been discredited. Trickle down economics, gains through privatisation and tax cuts as stimulus have all been shown to be magical thinking.
That's a big part of the reason that Brexit happened. Without any cohesive ideology, it created a vacuum where the idea of Brexit could take hold, especially amongst the economically illiterate.
Brexit is now done (ha ha!), so what else have they got to offer?
The truth is, not a lot. The party of the motorist?
So if they're not cutting taxes, then what are they for? Currently we're paying relatively high taxes (for the UK) and not getting much for it, because austerity crashed the economy.
If they're not cutting taxes, then there's very little to differentiate them from the Labour party, because they literally have no other ideas. I think it was Ian Duncan Smith who last said this out loud.
In reality, we're a relatively low tax country, compared to our European neighbours. That's why things are falling apart.
Just as the Conservatives can't admit that Brexit has been disastrous, for the same reasons they can't admit that austerity has also been disastrous, nor can they own up to privatisation not working. If they do, they're screwed.
Does anyone, other than her own self image, give a shit what Liz Truss thinks about economic matters?
I also think it’s very much ‘we want to cut tax’ rather than ‘we are cutting tax’
So if we're low tax compared to other European countries how much more tax do they pay?
They are suggesting lower tax means more people will invest / set up new businesses / etc so instead of 1 x £100 we'd have 100 x £1.
In reality they couldn't care less about the economy or the country, they just want to pay less on the money they and their mates already own and / or generate.
The idea is that additional tax revenue will be raised as the economy grows thus allowing increased spending. complete baloney of course but thats the theory
Where is the additional money going to come from to sort the mess out?
Same place it always come from. It will be spent into existence by the govt of the day once it decides it needs to do something.
The idea is that additional tax revenue will be raised as the economy grows thus allowing increased spending.
It's the other way round. You can't have growth without govt spending. Govt spending comes first, then you get growth, then they can tax it back.
So is the shit finally hitting the fan? Are we seeing the end of an era? Will Tories be down and out for good, just like old Labour was in 1979?
? Is it something to do with the what I perceive to be the strange behaviour of general election voters who repeatedly seem to want better public services and yet expect to get them by them individually paying less tax.
Apparently, near Xmas, the top turkeys get together and try to abolish higher taxes. Xmas
"So if we’re low tax compared to other European countries how much more tax do they pay?"
In the netherlands about 20 - 30% more IIRC. A few years ago me and my brother in law were earning similar amounts. he was paying more tax than I was despite the fact he had a family to support and I was a single man
One thing to remember when you look at comparisons Europe wide is that most countries you pay for your healthcare on top of taxation - perhaps only above a certain earnings limit. So if you see a comparison stating we have similar levels of taxation its bogus really as you really need to include the cost of your healthcare on top
My nephew also in the netherlands is on a good wage. top 10% stuff. he pays over 50% of his earnings in tax and that does not include his healthcare insurance
So if we’re low tax compared to other European countries how much more tax do they pay?
One of the other problems that the Conservatives, but actually politicians of all creeds face, is that one of the most efficient ways of boosting the economy is through giving money to poor people, because they tend to spend it, which is what causes the economic growth.
But we don't like poor people in this country. So we can't do that.
The trouble is that the only idea that Labour appears to be getting across is more growth. More growth equals more building, more roads, more vehicles, more bicycles, more “stuff”. The planet is a finite resource when is a mainstream party going to have the courage to lead us in the right direction?
Tbf I’d like to cut tax as well
However I’m aware we can’t, as the money has to come from somewhere
So why they are even bringing it up I don’t know.. (actually I do, to win votes with empty promises)
Apparently, near Xmas, the top turkeys get together and try to abolish
higher taxes. Xmas
They don't. They just say "pick that other one".
The irony is, that if we paid more tax, then we'd have more growth, as well as a better quality of life, and in the long run we'd be better off because wages would grow rather than stagnating.
However I’m aware we can’t, as the money has to come from somewhere
For what? From where? Can we please stop repeating myths about having to 'find money from somewhere' to pay for things that the govt does. It's simply not the way the system works. It's correct that at this point in time we can't really reduce the overrall tax burden because of inflation, but it's not because we need the money to pay for things.
Tax is not a method for raising funds, it's there primarily to provide price stability and aid in policy implementation.
Which is why when you go to mainland Europe by and large you see public services that work, far less signs of poverty, few homeless and clean streets.
Tax is not a method for raising funds, it’s there primarily to provide price stability and aid in policy implementation.
Yep.
If you announce you'll spend twice as much, without also explaining when and where you'll tax back that spend, then inflation and currency devaluation (and interest rate changes to try and control them) are likely to mean that everything costs twice as much... and nothing more actually gets achieved. This is why spending and taxation decisions/announcements go hand in hand, despite the former not being "funded" by the later.
[ we have this thread if people want to know more about this stuff without totally derailing this thread ]
[ "twice" is an exaggeration and over simplification here, used for hyperbole, of course ]
wrong thread...
I want lower taxes because it feels like what tax I do pay gets squandered and syphoned off to Tory cronies.
If it was used effectively and efficiently to improve the country, I'd happily pay more tax.
Like so many situations, it's not about the actual number, it's whether I feel like I'm getting value for money (which I'm currently not).
Yup, it's all about where that money goes... but also who the tax is taken off, and who gets away with the big tax breaks or avoidance to avoid paying their share.
I live in a high tax country and I don't think the UK is particularly low tax when you take the whole package into account. Complicated yes, inefficiently organised and collected yes, strangely disproportionate yes, but overall low, hmmm, not really.
But cutting axes per se isn't the answer to the growth question
And also, at some point, it's got to be about wealth redistribution, because if it isn't, we'll get stagnation.
WBO - do you pay for healthcare on top of taxation? We are not as low ax as we used to be but still overall low tax because of the healthcare issue
Where is the additional money going to come from to sort the mess out?
A better question is "where's the money gone?"
The tax take has risen yet the quality of services have gone down - fingers in the till...
Where is the additional money going to come from to sort the mess out?
They can literally create it from nothing as they did during the banking crisis and COVID. They just need to work out how to keep a lid on inflation.
Basically the conservatives are in an ideological bind.
^^Basically^^.
Does anyone, other than her own self image, give a shit what Liz Truss thinks about economic matters?
She's on a Tufton St payroll these days, that dark money from the States has paid for her to spout, and therefore she must spout.
She’s on a Tufton St payroll these days, that dark money from the States has paid for her to spout, and therefore she must spout.
I am pretty certain she is a true believer. Any money they lob her way is just a bonus.
Does anyone, other than her own self image, give a shit what Liz Truss thinks about economic matters?
She represents a large and powerful group inside the tories. So yeah knowing what she pushes is, sadly, still important since she isnt the only one who decided the only problem with her plan was the implementation rather than the nuttery.
Tbf I’d like to cut tax as well
However I’m aware we can’t, as the money has to come from somewhere
it ideally would come from people who have vast amounts to share. the people who can afford it.
The problem is that ~40% of the adult population is not paying any tax, but is using a very large proportion of government spending - health, social care, welfare (including pensions) etc.
There is also a minority of people (around 9%) who are paying European levels of tax and getting basically nothing for it. They don't really use the health service all that often (but if they did want to see a GP then they have to wait a month), there's no NHS dentists, no police presence, kids are probably privately educated, the roads are in worse condition than those of Belarus, and they even have to pay to drop a couple of bags of rubbish off at the tip.
The top 10% of taxpayers paid 61% of all income tax in 2020–21, up from 35% in 1978–79. Meanwhile, in 2010 the personal allowance was £6540, vs £12,570 today...
Taking all these points together, is it really any wonder that the 9% want to pay less tax?
Whilst headline tax has gone up the ability to avoid tax for the richest has also increased. Tax avoidance was at the heart of Brexit one you got passed the flag waving nonsense.
I'm baffled that so many people who barely have a pot to piss in will go out and vote for people like me to get taxed less. Not a lot I can do about it though.
When I lived in Japan, the tax burden seemed extremely low (and I'm including health insurance). The govt spent money like water, and the standard of living was generally very high (and inequality seemed generally low). It was all a bit of a mystery.
They don’t really use the health service all that often (but if they did want to see a GP then they have to wait a month), there’s no NHS dentists, no police presence, kids are probably privately educated, the roads are in worse condition than those of Belarus, and they even have to pay to drop a couple of bags of rubbish off at the tip.
But the answer for all that is George Osbornes ideologically driven austerity policies. There aren't any cops becasue the Tories sacked them all - and then had to re-hire a bunch more. You have to wait for a dentist becasue the Govt won't increase the NHS payments to them, the wait to see a GP is because the Govt refused to invest in hospitals, the roads are shit because the govt reduced the money they give to councils to do that work.
The Tories have ****ed this country in the last decade
Tax cuts
They aren’t increasing income tax bands for 5 years
They’ve massively reduced
Capital gains allowance
Dividend allowances
Bank interest allowances
The top 10% of taxpayers paid 61% of all income tax in 2020–21, up from 35% in 1978–79. Meanwhile, in 2010 the personal allowance was £6540, vs £12,570 today…
And as part of the general tax bill. After all the tories being the party of taxation have steadily ramped up the VAT bill since then.
There is also the problem of how much lower tax is on unearned income which the tories skip over. It would be reasonable to balance out income tax with increases there instead.
A major problem though is how much of that "welfare" is really business subsidies in topping up paypackets to be enough to live on. The tories give away of council housing and labours following them really doesnt help here. Quite a lot being paid out in rent which previously wouldnt have been done.
Jamz - during that time the country has become massively less equal with the richest grabbing an ever larger share of the cake
Also the poorer tend to pay a large % of their income in indirect taxes - and spend every penny they have which churns around the economy. rich folk squirrel wealth away which removes it from the economy
Since getting elected in 2010, the Tories have broken:
The NHS
Local Government
Education
The military
The Police
The Criminal Justice system
Legal Aid
The prison system
Our unwritten constitution
The Tory Party
Our EU membership
Our water and sewerage system
Housing
Public Transport
The road system
HMRC
.
.
.
I was trying to think of something they hadn't broken yesterday, and I couldn't come up with anything. And yet a sizeable proportion of our fellow subjects are prepared to vote for them. Why?
They’ve massively reduced
Capital gains allowance
Dividend allowances
Bank interest allowances
And yet, unearned income and wealth gains are still taxed at a substantially lower rate than earned income.
I've yet to hear anyone even attempt to explain with any credibility why this is a good thing, let alone why it's fair and just.
~40% of the adult population is not paying any tax
I don't know a single adult paying no tax. Do they not buy anything, don't even heat their home? No council tax?
Why?
constant pumping out of propaganda by their tame media outlets. that sets the whole national conversation. The BBC takes its neutrality from the midpint of the press. If that point is hugely favorable to the Tories then so will the BBC and ITV output be. they have also put huge pressure on the BBC and its worked. The BBC are too cowed to hold them to account
