[Closed] Tax returns - should they all be public?

It is if you are part of a society reliant on taxation to work for the good of all (including those at the top)

No. It's not.

Try and find out if you disagree ?

I pay my tax to HMRC, it's their business. Not yours.

Try and find out if you disagree ?

I doubt it would be too hard. Just pay a PI and they would probably come back with a copy in a few days.

Then we can all see the despicable members of society.

They're the ones without "P"s on this forum!

Just pay a PI and they would probably come back with a copy in a few days.

Not legally.

There already are plenty of dating services which filter by wealth - you can't join them unless you are wealthy

Not legally.

He didn't specify.

Point being, if I really wanted to know (and I really don't GAS) I reckon I could find out quite easily.

Very different to match.com, eharmony, zoosk etc publishing bank balance underneath each picture.

Would that really be so bad? People marry into the same social class / status already, always have and always will. One of the reasons why social mobility is so poor.

How about we take the figure for the tax collected each year and divide it by the number of people of tax paying age in the country. If you pay less than that amount, you shut up and be thankful that people subsidise your life 🙂

Does that not seem fair 🙂

A boon for criminal activity, particularly burglary and the hacking of online banking systems.

At least that would free the people trapped in wealth.

He didn't specify.
Point being, if I really wanted to know (and I really don't GAS) I reckon I could find out quite easily.

Point being, to find out you would need to break the law.

The reason being, it's none of your business.

No. It's not.

Yes it is.
I get to vote on the people who decide on the rules governing how much tax you pay [assuming you are in the UK]
I could bring to the attention of HMRC any information I had about a person or business avoiding or evading tax. HMRC may decide to do nothing about it, but I'd like to think they wouldn't say it was none of my business.

And most people do tax avoidance. Cycle to work, Childcare vouchers, etc etc

Surely only once you have been publicly outed as tax avoiding should they be made public.

yours

Dave

George has done the decent thing (no, not *that* decent)

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A bit thin, just the one year.....

[i]yours

Dave[/i]

^^ Thats not THE Dave is it?? 😯

Corbyn's gone for the photo copy of a biro'd form.

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Corbyn's gone for the photo copy of a biro'd form.

And at least it is a tax return, rather than a summary.

How about we take the figure for the tax collected each year and divide it by the number of people of tax paying age in the country. If you pay less than that amount, you shut up and be thankful that people subsidise your life

At least that would free the people trapped in wealth.

You jest, but it is a serious affliction...

https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2016/apr/11/david-cameron-dangers-trapped-in-wealth

Tax returns should definitely not be open to the public, it is very private information that [s]could[/s] would be harvested by people not for the use that it is intended.

There is a government agency in place that is given the power to collect and enforce taxation and to provide appropriate penalties for those who evade the right level of taxation.

Tax avoidance is something completely different and is 100% legal. If HMRC does not want people to avoid tax in particular ways then they should close those channels.

If making tax returns public is a way to hold people publically to account for not breaking tax law then by the same vane everyone should have a black box in their car which logs and reports publically their speed to ensure we are not speeding, should provide a live feed into our daily lives to ensure we are not committing crime. Maybe an implant under the skin so everyone knows where everyone can be at all times. You can never be too sure.

Personal income is just that, personal. Having that information public to your friends, family, employer, co-workers, criminals...is just a very very naïve idea.

Tax avoidance is the use of legal methods to modify an individual's financial situation in order to lower the amount of income tax owed. This is generally accomplished by claiming the permissible deductions and credits. This practice differs from tax evasion, which is illegal.

This is the first result from searching for "tax avoidance" on Google. However, from [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/372502/Tempted_by_Tax_Avoidance.pdf ]Gov.uk[/url]:

But there is a big difference between using tax reliefs and allowances in the way in which they are intended to be used, and trying to bend the rules to avoid tax...If you use a scheme which relies on concealment, pretence, non-disclosure or misrepresentation of the true facts, you are breaking the law by evading tax.

It only takes one piece of bad tax advice to slip from "using tax reliefs and allowances" to "tax avoidance" and then to "tax evasion". One is using the system as designed, the next is morally wrong and the latter is illegal.

My point is that too many of us are guilty of trying to make this a black and white issue and it simply isn't.

Would that really be so bad? People marry into the same social class / status already, always have and always will. One of the reasons why social mobility is so poor.

I'm not saying that it would be bad, but that it would be one of the few outcomes of publicly available tax returns. Although now that I think about it, a publicly searchable list of the finances of people actively looking to meet strangers alone might not be the wisest idea in the world!

 

Tax avoidance is something completely different and is 100% legal

by the same vane everyone should have a black box in their car which logs and reports publically their speed to ensure we are not speeding

Tax avoidance is something completely different and is 100% legal

except when it's not

But then it's not tax avoidance, it's tax evasion.

I would say not to make it public.

Social media is bad enough at the moment with hate mobs targeting Tory voters, the known rich, politicians who have a contrary view, politicians who merely voted in-line with party policy etc.

It would be a free for all against anyone who had a modicum of wealth - This is so and so from Sheffield. He / She earns £1m a year and pays x in tax - hate them.'

It would cause endless conflicts at work and between friends, families, neighbours, people who don't even know each other.

Further, whilst I am strictly PAYE and am comfortably in the 20% band so not the most exciting of individuals I do not want world + dog knowing my financial affairs thank you very much.

And to those that think tax avoidance is the epitome of evil itself how many of you have paid cash to get a discount of somewhere between 15 & 20% depending on exactly when the transaction took place.

That's aiding tax evasion that is, never mind mere avoidance.

You would also have armchair warriors (like most of us on here to be fair) with little or no knowledge of the tax code riffling through peoples' affairs and coming to entirely the wrong conclusions about their taxes but sending out the pitchforks nonetheless.

We are not mature enough as a society to know what to do with such information and until we are it should be kept private.

I get to vote on the people who decide on the rules governing how much tax you pay [assuming you are in the UK]
I could bring to the attention of HMRC any information I had about a person or business avoiding or evading tax. HMRC may decide to do nothing about it, but I'd like to think they wouldn't say it was none of my business.

That's all very nice. But as I said earlier, the contents of my Tax Return are none of your business.

Even to the point that the information is protected by law from you gaining access to it.

How much more proof do you need that it's none of your business.

We are not mature enough as a society to know what to do with such information and until we are it should be kept private.

Well put

Even the media are guilty of misrepresenting the facts and sharpening pitch forks where pitch forks should not be needed. It's all a big smokescreen to distract us whilst something genuinely and hugely concerning is being passed through parliament.

"STW are having a field day with this tax story. Let's push something objectionable through parliament whilst they're not paying attention." 😕

Quite interesting debate in HoC with usual panto villains - skinner given a red card - lots of misinformation too (you decide)

Despite not being a SNP fan, Robertson was one of the most sensible and measured contributors. Far better than most on that side of the house.

Well said above - the palpable desperation among journalists is very real!

Let's push something objectionable through parliament whilst they're not paying attention.

The only thing they seem to be talking about pushing through is more anti-tax avoidance legislation, which is probably a good thing.

How much more proof do you need that it's none of your business.

Was it written in stone on Mount Sinai? No, well then it's all up for grabs.

That's all very nice. But as I said earlier, the contents of my Tax Return are none of your business.

Even to the point that the information is protected by law from you gaining access to it.

How much more proof do you need that it's none of your business.

No proof has been provided.
The proposition that is someone else's business and the fact that they cannot legally find out the contents of your tax return are not mutually exclusive.

I think discussing this very point was the intent of the thread.

The only thing they seem to be talking about pushing through is more anti-tax avoidance legislation, which is probably a good thing

Indeed. I wish I could suppress my cynicism and believe that is true, since it all seems to be about Cameron's perfectly legitimate tax paid on a modest investment rather than the billions in tax that corporations are avoiding. We need to get back on track with where the core problem is here.

Was it written in stone on Mount Sinai? No, well then it's all up for grabs.

Although nobody is actually considering making that change though are they ? (Genuine question)

The proposition that is someone else's business and the fact that they cannot legally find out the contents of your tax return are not mutually exclusive.

The [b][i]reason[/i] [/b] they can't find out the details legally, is [b][i]because[/i][/b] it's none of their business.

Well this is a turn up for the books - more pitchforks required:

"Entities with offshore investments included many councils — including Labour-held Islington — as well as media organisations such as the BBC and the leftwing Mirror and Guardian newspapers. Even the Trades Union Congress has a unit trust with 3 per cent of its net assets in Jersey"

FT report on today's "discussions" in the House of Commons.

These tax returns are remarkable - for their dullness. Poor old journo's - shit deadline approaching, what can we say about Jezza? Crap handwriting, poor file keeping and missed the deadline - how can we spin the one!!!!

Right Gideons should be better. Let's see.......

The reason they can't find out the details legally, is because it's none of their business.

Have you any proof that that is the reason?

So if the rules were changed here, and tax returns were made public, then the amount of tax everyone pays would suddenly change from being none of anyone else's business, to being so. Strange logic.

Does that mean that in the Nordic countries, where the information is public, that it is someone's else's business?

I think that whether it is anyone else's business or not is up for debate, but whether it is or isn't doesn't rest on whether the information is currently available to the public.

My understanding is that there is nothing wrong with offshore investments. Typically these funds - e.g. hedge funds - are setup because the offshore location has more relaxed regulations that allow the fund to be set up more easily. Chances are that some - possibly many - of us have some of our pensions invested in offshore funds. Pay your tax on any return you make on those investments and everyone's happy.

The morally-wrong avoidance of corporation tax by managing tax affairs offshore doesn't mean that everything with "offshore" in the title is immoral, "bad" or illegal.

It all just reeks of lazy journalism to me. Have I missed some of this story?

Well this is a turn up for the books

Anyway its bad whomever does it or its right whomever does it

Trying to score cheap political points, with your principles, is just cheap.

As for the topic I can see arguments both ways

One of the things is that very poor poel don't actually want folk to know just how poor they are. Its not just the rich who want privacy

Personally I have no issue declaring my own but my income will tell you that as I am PAYE.

No stillT but save your breath as no one cares. Its about morals innit......or about being rich, you decide.

I don't think its lazy journalism more over-active and desperate - in word and in voice. How many times will someone use the word "extraordinary" to describe events in later news programmes? Still Jezza's response (so I read) is to ask the journos to do the same!!

no pissing about from Boris then 🙂

That we all might aspire to paying quarter a million pounds of tax. He's a beacon of light to us all, so he is...

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Totally political. Jezza wants journalists to publish their returns so he can say "rich press" (inference closet Tories) are biased against us salt of the earth hardworking family orientated lefties

Corbyn should be given a slap for making extra work for over pressed hmrc for not filling in his simple return online

That's not bad dosh for a weekly column in the Torygraph. 😉

Does that mean that in the Nordic countries, where the information is public, that it is someone's else's business?

It's a matter of public record, so yes. It is everyone's business.

So if the rules were changed here, and tax returns were made public, then the amount of tax everyone pays would suddenly change from being none of anyone else's business, to being so. Strange logic.

But it would wouldn't it. Not strange logic at all, just a change in the law.

Like if murder was made legal, you could kill someone without issue.

Currently you can't.

But apparently, "it's all up for grabs" 😉

@Stoner - job done from Boris, who says the rich don't pay their way - all the lefties do actually

Interesting Boris puts so little into his pension, what does he know that we don't or possibly other contributions made directly

That's not bad dosh for a weekly column in the Torygraph.