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I'm all for tax returns being public.
However, the reason for collective anger is undeclared income, or wealth that has been moved overseas and as such is not included in tax return calculations.
Publishing tax return information changes nothing, however punitive legislation to close loopholes and ensure that the filthy rich can't move money around to avoid paying tax [i]will[/i] change behaviour.
What question is publishing your tax return actually answering? It's not clear to me.
This argument to me is very similar to the athletes publishing power data, it makes people look clean but in reality is no such thing, as you'd have to be a dumbass to publish anything dodgy.
matydubz - Member
B r I'm looking at this as an employee.The concern is that self assessment requires everyone to play fair. You might but the fact is some do not.
So how do public tax records stop joe blogs from not registering that cash in hand job with his accountant?
It's just the usually reactionary nonsense.
It wouldn't necessarily stop but it would make people think about what they declare.
What question is publishing your tax return actually answering? It's not clear to me.
Well we know now that the guy who "runs" the country needs some help. Keeps large sums of money in the bank (a bank?) earning a negative real return (muppet), has no direct investments in any UK companies (how unpatriotic) etc - and he makes important decisions that affect the rest of us. Seems very out-of-touch to me....
Ecky-Thump - MemberNope. That's HMRC's job, not Joe Public's
The chief executive officer of HMRC considers tax to be legalised extortion, has previously campaigned against tax avoidance legislation, and made his career in helping companies reduce tax payments...
In answer to the original Q, No.
I'm not sure what publishing would help with anyway. Where people are using methods to avoid tax (publicly acceptable or not) these don't show up. So you would have no idea what people were up to.
Well we know now that the guy who "runs" the country needs some help. Keeps large sums of money in the bank (a bank?) earning a negative real return (muppet), has no direct investments in any UK companies (how unpatriotic) etc - and he makes important decisions that affect the rest of us. Seems very out-of-touch to me....
To be fair, I think it's pretty admirable that he sold all his investments, so as not to have any conflicts of interest, prior to becoming PM.
What question is publishing your tax return actually answering? It's not clear to me
Surely fiscal transparency is a good thing in a democracy?
I don't see any real arguments for privacy other than 'it's none of your business', which is pretty weak as we're all part of the same society which is held together by mutual help (no matter how much some might protest).
I know FF, it was a joke. Keeping in the spirit of the current debate.
But it really is bllx - as always laws and reform drawn to react to events are rarely sensible.
There is some wonderful emphasis and excitement on the news reports now. F me the desperation is palpable - and he latest on BBC is that Jezza has lost his returns - WGAF?
To be fair, I think it's pretty admirable that he sold all his investments, so as not to have any conflicts of interest, prior to becoming PM.
+1
It is right that Norway publish all their tax returns, it is also right that people continually shop their neighbours for tax avoidance and that they have a small minded and provincial approach to life.
I prefer living in an open and liberal country.
EDIT:
I don't see any real arguments for privacy other than 'it's none of your business'
Tell me about your sex life.
No. If they had to be published it would be a major disincentive for me to work in the UK. FWIW I've worked under PAYE for vast majority of my career and I hold this view. Nobodies business except hmrc what individuals earn. Summary info is published now for banks and imo it adds zero other than clickbait headlines
OP good idea to start a seperate thread on a specific question, the Panama thread has decended as is often the case on STW into personal insults.
@tmh so jezza didn't do them online ? If done online they hold all the records available immediately
[quote=teamhurtmore said] and he latest on BBC is that Jezza has lost his returns - WGAF?
And it would appear that the BBC pension fund uses a fund manager based in the Bahamas !
Can you get iPlayer out there ?
@allthepies - via vpn yes 🙂
As per Sky News commentary no government of any colour is going to introduce this as its a guaranteed massive vote loser
Publishing Tax returns may make it easy to see whose house is worth burgling or whose child to kidnap but i can't see how it will expose any dodgy dealing Tax Returns are designed and intended to either be legit or look legit.
What would be far more effective would be to recruit and unleash some aggressive tax inspectors, put as much vigour and resources into investigating tax avoidance as we put into benefit fraud.
The chief executive officer of HMRC considers tax to be legalised extortion, has previously campaigned against tax avoidance legislation, and made his career in helping companies reduce tax payments...
This is again completely unfair as he was arguing the case for simplification as the best way to reduce avoidance and was just explaining the legal framework which allows governments to tax. Likewise, his GAAR point was simply that a GAAR completely in the power of HMRC was unfair. At the time most professionals were in favour of a pre-clearance system, but HMRC have always resisted this because of its cost. Now the concern is met by requiring HMRC to go to an independent panel before trying to apply it.
He was a tax partner at a medium sized City firm though, but everyone is entitled to advice, his reputation was a very straight adviser.
Tell me about your sex life.
Hardly a comparable subject.
Tax revenue pays for all the services we all use everyday and without it we'd have no society. So, in the interests of open democracy, being able to see that everyone else pays their dues could be argued to be beneficial.
Can we have a thread on Greybull Capital - saviours of Tata S****horpe?
How transparent is the holier than thou Newpaper that is making the most of all this!?!
Here's a thought reduce the likes of income and corporation tax and wack up VAT. Far harder to avoid unless you are a regular at your local under the counter booze and fags shop.
In the spirit of transparency can we also have go pro cameras on everyone to make sure that they are working and not skiving and a block on fora use during work hours? Surfing the net instead of working is essentially theft too.....
I think anyone believing that publishing tax returns - anyones tax returns - is a way to stop people avoiding taxes is being very, very naïve.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Tory backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg, said: “The mood has become very clear that all MPs within a year or two will be publishing their returns and I’m not going to be the one to hold out against that.”
Interesting this could, over time change public opinion towards tax transparency.
After all drink driving was considered socially acceptable only 20 years ago....
Here's a thought reduce the likes of income and corporation tax and wack up VAT. Far harder to avoid unless you are a regular at your local under the counter booze and fags shop.
It disproportionately affects the poor though.
And has no affect on say millions held in investments and trusts, or rental income etc.
I think anyone believing that publishing tax returns - anyones tax returns - is a way to stop people avoiding taxes is being very, very naïve.
It's not a miracle cure, but it's a step in the right direction.
From another thread that has just been closed 🙁
Why are tax avoidance and tax evasion 2 distinct things? why aren't they one and the same?
One is legal, one isn't.
And most people do tax avoidance. Cycle to work, Childcare vouchers, etc etc
It's not a miracle cure, but it's a step in the right direction.
It will make evasion more attractive because not only will you not pay tax you will keep that source of money private.
The most common sense I've seen on the whole subject came from Martin "moneysavingexpert" Lewis yesterday, and I ****ing hate him generally for some of the shit storm he has thrown in my line of work in the past.
It will make evasion more attractive because not only will you not pay tax you will keep that source of money private.
Only if people are more concerned about hiding the source than they are about avoiding tax, which is debatable.
The current system, which is completely untransparent, is conducive to tax evasion as visibility is non existent. Open up the Kimono, so to speak, will only make it harder to hide things.
It is transparent to the authorities, they can ask pretty much anything they like HMRC used to have more powers that the police - not sure of present position.
I know alot of wealthy people who if you met them you would have no idea of the extent of their wealth - they live like that because they want to be judged on their own merits, not based on their wealth. I want to live in the society that gives people the freedom to do that.
I don't see any real arguments for privacy other than 'it's none of your business', which is pretty weak
It's not weak though is it.
My tax situation isn't any of your business, and there is absolutely no good reason why you need to know about it either.
Which explains very simply, why you don't know, and why there is no way for you to find out.
I'd say that's a pretty strong argument.
I have nothing to hide but I don't want anyone to find out my income details, what's the point? We need to trust our MPs, so maybe there's a point there, but for the rest of us? Tax inspectors are there to ensure we are declaring what we should.
What are we expecting to see on returns that's of any use to finding out dodgy people? We can do something tax inspectors can't?
[i]After all drink driving was considered socially acceptable only 20 years ago.... [/i]
I've been driving nearly 35 years, and it wasn't socially acceptable when I started - at least it wasn't in the society I kept...
What are we expecting to see on returns that's of any use to finding out dodgy people? We can do something tax inspectors can't?
HMRC is pretty non joined up so it's quite easy to avoid tax on income, by just not declaring it. The argument for transparency is that if you're declaring, say £15k a year income, but living in a £1m house with two RRs on the drive, odds are you're probably not declaring everything and might be less inclined to lie on your tax return if it's public info.
My tax situation isn't any of your business, and there is absolutely no good reason why you need to know about it either.
That's an opinion rather than an absolute.
In a fair and democratic society one could argue that there is a need for transparency to encourage people to pay their fair dues and to reduce corruption.
It is interesting how Norway manages without their society imploding, yet it would seem to be like the end of the world to some people here.
I'm personally not convinced by the need for everyone to share public tax returns for the following reasons:
- Only a minority of the current working population currently complete a tax return. Despite having 10 x as many tax payers, the IRS in the USA costs less to administer in absolute terms than HMRC does. So if everyone has to complete a tax return we're likely looking at £Bs in extra costs.
- When we all know what everyone else earns behaviours of some individuals would change. From recent experience I know that an elderly neighbour was targeted for quite a sophisticated fraud by a gang who were using public data to target elderly people living alone in large houses. When anyone can see anyone else's wealth that will put some people at immediate risk and in other cases where people have limited will suffer the indignity of all and sundry making value judgements about them.
I'd like to see some different rules - very vigorously enforced and underpinned by new criminal offences:
1. All shops, traders and tradespeople to clearly display the legal entity through which they transact. All transactions to be invoiced / receipts given and all shops to use cash tills to record all purchases.
2. All income over £1K a year not earned through PAYE or regulated channels like bank interest etc. to be reported via a simplified Self Assessment process with the current SA process used where the person has income to declare and PAYE.
My personal experience is that a significant number of the people I know routinely evade tax:
- friends who have family members who haven't reported cash in hand work and then get caught out claiming benefits
- an army of tradespeople who work cash in hand often at a day rate that requires them to be registered for VAT let alone using a Ltd company. Some of these are also signing on.
- contractors who keep receipts for family meals / travel and stick them through the books
- a significant number of people doing Buy to Let without ever declaring the income or the capital gain.
- Shops that don't ring things through the till - if they even have a till that is. Where they are selling a mix of VATable and non VATable products there is no way they can accurately report income without recording what is sold and at what price.
There's been a lot said about politicians this week but should we care to admit it there's fairly systemic tax evasion happening on a daily basis in homes / businesses across the country.
Seems like liberty is the first casualty of transparency and fairness (sic) It's all about morals isn't it?!? Or perhaps not....
It would be a complete waste of time with the only outcomes being,
A huge increase in paperwork for HMRC due to disgruntled armchair experts demanding strangers be investigated because it seems like they should be paying more.
A boon for criminal activity, particularly burglary and the hacking of online banking systems.
Pretty much any very wealthy, high tax paying but private individuals being hounded endlessly.
Online dating sites being able to add the ability to filter by wealth.
All income over £1K a year not earned through PAYE or regulated channels like bank interest etc. to be reported via a simplified Self Assessment process
I file a tax return every year due to having a rental property. The [i]process[/i] of filling in a SA return online is already pretty easy, but knowing what numbers need to be filled in where and how to be more efficient with my tax affairs is a case of research and experience. As long as we have an ever-changing set of rules determining what qualifies for tax relief and what doesn't, self assessment will always be difficult for most. A simplified self assessment process is - in other words - playing by simpler rules. Not necessarily fair.
Online dating sites being able to add the ability to filter by wealth.
There already are plenty of dating services which filter by wealth - you can't join them unless you are wealthy!
It is interesting how Norway manages without their society imploding,
It may have been interesting if anyone had claimed otherwise. But nobody did.
yet it would seem to be like the end of the world to some people here.
Not at all. That's just a contrary view you have imagined so you can disagree with it.
It's just pointless, and as mentioned, none of your business.
It is if you are part of a society reliant on taxation to work for the good of all (including those at the top)My tax situation isn't any of your business
Can we have lapel badgers that show how much we earn and then little stars or devils to show how much tax we pay - like Macdonalds and their gold stars. Then we can all see the despicable members of society.
It is interesting how Norway manages without their society imploding, yet it would seem to be like the end of the world to some people here.
Many Norwegians think it is tantamount to a police state, albeit a relatively benign one because of the oil wealth.