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As a long term lurker on here,and a sufferer of major Depression for longer than I care to remember, I have felt compelled to respond to this thread.
It saddens me to see such well established contributors bickering with each other on such a serious, and largely miss-understood illness that has no constructive advice or help to others.
Muddy Puddles thread 12 hours ago was bang on the nail,Sharing experiences of depression is a wonder full therapy, forums like this are a great way of utilising a common interest, and discussing lifestyle issues anonymously, and the OPs thread invites this.
Mr Barnes does seem to have a habit of "provoking a reaction" and several individuals have got sucked into this,diluting the quality of the topic and straying away from the point.
It has helped me to look forwards and focus on future planned events rather than dwelling on negative things in the past,take each day one step at a time and always try to talk things through with someone,if thinks don't go as planned.
Here's a big hug to everyone suffering with depression 😐
Sharing experiences of depression is a wonder full therapy
sharing experiences of recovery perhaps. Actual symptoms are very boring to anyone other than the sufferer.
Mr Barnes does seem to have a habit of "provoking a reaction" and several individuals have got sucked into this,diluting the quality of the topic and straying away from the point.
actually, I wasn't being provoctive, I just wrote about the way I'd overcome depression, trying to be helpful - however, for reasons of their own, many choose to be provoked, whatever I say. However, I reject the idea that the thread was diluted - you shouldn't assume that because depression is serious, it cannot be discussed in an amusing way
I don't think it's straying too far from the point when a health professional misinterprets eccentricity as "sociopathic tendencies" - it's a fair warning that even the experts can be hopelessly wrong.
take each day one step at a time and always try to talk things through with someone
well, OK, we all like a sympathetic ear, particularly in the early stages of recovery, but it can be easy to abuse the privilege and establish a condition of dependency and/or symptom obsession. That's why I talked about self reliance. David Burns hammers the point home that everyone has a life of their own, and no one has more time for you than you do yourself, and you can use as much of it as you need without feeling guilty for inflicting your problems on anyone else.
Simon The problem is that you trivialise depression. you oversimplify treatments. You make unjustified claims for your favourite treatment, you decry all other treatments, you clearly continue to have unresolved issues that you deny, you have very strange attitudes towards emotion and thus your input is not universally helpful.
Others - please don't just take my word for it - read bermbandits incisive posts on this
I'm not reading all this.
Just the brief peruse left me feeling crap and that i'm not doing anything right to deal with my own sufferings.
All the, 'i'm right and your wrong shite' has left me confused on what the hell i need to do for me.
Could someone please point me in the right direction of something non bitchy, perhaps dissect simons and TJ's hang bagging, into to something positive and useful.
There are people here who suffer depression in it's many guises and each case has it's own individual and most suitable method of which to deal with it, at least in a way lessen the symptoms so the sufferer can led a better life.
[i]perhaps dissect simons and TJ's hang bagging[/i]
Hardly worth the effort really. Here's a summary: None of it is worth reading. Its all utter shite. This is the internet after all. What did you expect?
There is content in this thread, you just have to read it carefully with a peaceful mind on.
Not always easy granted.
Just the brief peruse left me feeling crap and that i'm not doing anything right to deal with my own sufferings.
That was expected 🙁 It's almost impossible to talk about depression without ending up having that effect on at least someone. Nature of the beast.
The problem is that you trivialise depression
I don't think so. After all it poisoned 3 decades of my life 🙁
you decry all other treatments
I'm critical of antidepressants, which are very hit-or-miss, given the underlying complexity of the hormonal systems.
you have very strange attitudes towards emotion
really ? I'm just reiterating what I read in the book, and pragmatically, the concept that emotions come from thoughts is very powerful, as you have plenty of scope for changing how you think. We call them "feelings", because they have a measureable somatic reality similar to external sensations, and I'm saying the physical part is meaningless, not the thoughts that lead to the feeling
Sorry sharki!
You have grasped the key point in that depression is complex and multifactorial, there are many different treatments and different ones are best for different people
Sometimes learning coping mechanisms is enough, other times you need to explore deep parts of your psyche to deal with the causes. I have some knowledge and experience ( but not huge amounts) of many of the forms of treatment - if it would be of use to discuss this in a non judgemental way off forum to anyone please email me.
Glib superficial answers are not helpful IMO / IME
Glib superficial answers are not helpful
nor glib diagnoses 🙂
SFB has risen in my estimation as a person, after reading through this thread.
I came to the conclusion long ago that the road to happiness is to stop giving a damn, about giving a damn, about how you think people who cannot know you, percieve you.
Our society has been built on "How will i look to the nieghbours" Keeping up with the Jonse's.
Buying the expensive car.
The massive house.
The huge home extension when only a family of three live within.
Buying the overly large widescreen tv and mounting on the wall opposite the window for all to see.
None of it for your personal needs, all of it for others to see "How well you are doing"
I bought in to this once. Ran myself in to the ground to keep up. Credit? Yup.
It took losing it all for me to take the long hard, no soft soap(Elfinsaftey stylee) inward look, to fix myself, to stop living my life for people who couldn't possibly give a damn. To live my life for me and mine.
I reject the idea that the thread was diluted
Good point, 5 pages of SF arguing is entirely on topic for a thread about depression...
Our society has been built on "How will i look to the nieghbours" Keeping up with the Jonse's.
I disagree with that. I never met anyone who wanted anything because someone else had it.
I met a lot of people who wanted something because they thought it was cool. Quite a difference.
I never met anyone who wanted anything because someone else had it.
ever hear of "theft" ?
Synposis?
I found this book to be very good for helping me change the way I saw my body and self, also with coping with my back injuries.
A lot of people have been healed of all sorts of conditions by a beverage called Kombucha.
I take it to give me more energy and it seems to be healing my back very quickly.
Anyone interested in feeling good, I would advise you to look into it.
If you're interested in taking it, I can show you where to buy the equipment and teach you how to brew it.
Also if anyone reading this is near to Edinburgh or can travel here I can give you a bottle of Kombucha to try it.
Don't dismiss it because it isn't widely known about, thousands of people benefit from it and it will be a cold day on the face of the sun before I stop taking it.
can bring on massive dizzy'ness, disorientation and reduced ability to think clearly. Sounds like something out of a book, but happened to me. Working a 9-5 office + 1hr commute each way did me in to the point I couldn't even WALK to the car, let alone drive it.
Doctors puzzled for ages about the dizzyness thing, when my mood improved, dizzzyness, collapsing & brain failure, all gone.
Was also completly dis-interested in food and other things.
I have to say that it is a shame that this thread has deteriorated into who is right and who is wrong
it wasn't as simple as that. TJ was saying I was completely wrong about everything and should stop posting, I said he was wrong about me being an insightless sociopathic emotionally stunted denialist!
With regards to comments about the trivialisation of depression and/or infringing the sensitivities of sufferers - I'd say the subject isn't somehow sacred, and that making too much of selfcritical feelings merely reinforces the misery. Depression is about unrealistic bad feelings - people can be happy even if all their loved ones are killed or their legs blown off, so part of the solution is to get things in proportion, and stop taking feelings so seriously they become disabling.
Mol, a lot of it is being susceptible to the media, you might think youre hard bitten and couldnt possibly fall for the sales line/ technique... but advertisement industry is at work on a very subtle and very powerfull level... the level of peer pressure.
I met a lot of people who wanted something because they thought it was cool. Quite a difference.
Proof positive.
The media say we need BMW turbo nutter, A semi in Surbiton, Bluray, HD or whatever and the public fall for it, and worse still LIE to themself as to the reasons they bought in to it, often at vast expense, when the old item they had did a perfectley adequate job... I needed more room... It's a better area, the picture is ten times better.. it does 45mpg.... nearly all kidding yourself, or worse justifying why you purchased the item with a lie.
Read Lies Lies Lies the psychology of deceit by Dr Ford, there is an entire chapter dedicated to this phenomenon..
I've just read some of this thread and I'm now rocking back and too gibbering, while carving my own initials repeatedly into my arm with a straight razor.
It demonstrates all the nuanced knowledge and indepth insight of a channel 5, 60 second news update.
PLEASE STOP IT!!!!!!
For anyone new to this thread, read the first few pages if nothing else. As someone who has never reached some of the depths mentioned here I don't always really understand or 'get' what is going wrong when I see someone starting to unravel. Many of the comments here have been hugely helpful so thank you to everyone who has opened up. FC's "How about when nothing matters?" in particular
It demonstrates all the nuanced knowledge and indepth insight of a channel 5, 60 second news update.
if you wanted those things, this was not the place to look! I wonder what nuances you might expect anyway ?
You just can't help yourself, can you?
Binners. You mean for sfb to have the last say? 😉
Find it hard to see why people get so upset about what Simon says. He hasn't trivialised depression but offered a solution that worked for him and his central point that thoughts influence feelings is so self evidently true. If someones behaviuor makes you feel guilty or angry or sad it's because you let it. As Eleanor Roosevelt said:
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"
And another quote for anyone wound up by Simon (or anyone else for that matter is Mark Twains
"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured"
"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured"
agreed. Certainly the kind of instant road-rage type anger I used to get 🙁 Dangerous and pointless.
Another one is jealousy - it has no useful function whatever. No one benefits by it.
threads this long always have sfb arguing just popped in so thanks for the precise
I said he was wrong about me being an insightless sociopathic emotionally stunted denialist!
So basically TJ was right 😉
The media say we need BMW turbo nutter, A semi in Surbiton, Bluray, HD or whatever and the public fall for it, and worse still LIE to themself as to the reasons they bought in to it
Interesting. So if say I want I dunno.. a new car.. is it because I've been conditioned to want one by the media and am lying to myself as to the reasons? Or is it that the car itself is an intrinsically desirable item for me, being such person as appreciates the driving and mechanics of such things?
Could you or I ever tell the difference?
Your honour..... I rest my case
SFB
You continue to downplay what depression is because of your lack of understanding both of the condition of yourself. Your very post above is doing this. Depression can be far more than you state and to state
Is completely trivialising it. Its a glib oversimplification. It may have applied to you but it does not apply to everyone with depressive illness. some have far more severe debilitating symptoms.I'd say the subject isn't somehow sacred, and that making too much of selfcritical feelings merely reinforces the misery. Depression is about unrealistic bad feelings
If all You had said SFB was that "I was like this, I tried this and it worked for me" then fine. However to state such nonsense as that does people who are living with the illness no favours nor does your complete rejection over and over again of drugs.
That is why I got angry and sucked into arguing with you.
To talk rubbish on some subjects does no harm. However on some subjects it can. Some of what you have said on this thread could easily put people off seeking treatment or send them down a road that does no suit them
Your trivialising of the illness could also damage the self worth of people who are living with this illness
For these reasons I asked you to stop.
It may have applied to you but it does not apply to everyone with depressive illness. some have far more severe debilitating symptoms.
such as ? You're right that I'm only talking about my own experience and those related to me by others, but surely all depression is about unrealistic feelings, mostly misery not related to immediate, ongoing physical causes ? I mean, if you're miserable because someone hits you every day, that's just sensible, not depression, which I take to be a kind of self perpetuating inner angst
nor does your complete rejection over and over again of drugs
actually I repeatedly said I didn't get on with them, though they were useful to me briefly when I was suicidal. Given the sledgehammer way the are supposed to work, with numerous side effects, that cannot be held as an ideal solution if other methods work.
That is why I got angry and sucked into arguing with you
well, anger isn't very useful and likely to make you misspeak. However convinced you may be of your own rightness, that doesn't completely invalidate others' opinions to everyone else, and you still have to present credible arguments
Some of what you have said on this thread could easily put people off seeking treatment or send them down a road that does no suit them
yes, I know you keep saying this, but I never said anyone should avoid treatment, and I cannot see how so many pages of carefully thought out argument can be thought of as trivialisation, moreover, I've already pointed out that no one takes a blind bit of notice of my contrary opinions on any other topic (except to ridicule them), so I'm at a loss why you might think they'd take my pronouncements on this as Gospel. Your attitude seems to betray a contempt for depressives where you feel they cannot be allowed to think for themselves or to take part in their own rehabilitation - which undermines the very self belief vital to recovery
Becoming angry and issuing cod diagnoses suggests an unhelpful lack of mature reflection (that's my cod diagnosis)
For these reasons I asked you to stop.
had you the slightest perception you would long have realised that telling me not to do a thing only encourages me, as I feel I'm getting somewhere useful
actually I repeatedly said I didn't get on with them, though they were useful to me briefly when I was suicidal. Given the sledgehammer way the are supposed to work, with numerous side effects, that cannot be held as an ideal solution if other methods work.
Actually, this is what I've been taking issue with mostly. As I've said, in my case I started taking drugs (lamactil) and my symptoms have gone from being completely unmanageable to almost non-existent and the ones that are still present are completely manageable without any side effects.
I think you're lumping all drugs in with anti-depressants which aren't the only type of drugs available for depression.
I understand that you have had bad experiences but understand that I have had bad experiences with the solutions you are suggesting, mostly that I was able to fool myself into thinking that they were working and they were better than taking drugs. They worked for a couple of weeks at best before the mental strain became too much and I fell back again. For me it's a chemical imbalance that can be treated with drugs, pure and simple.
Your trivialising of the illness could also damage the self worth of people who are living with this illness
surely self worth should be founded on one's qualities and rights as an individual and not on some affliction ? For me discovering that the symptoms were mostly pointless self-deception was an immediate route to recovery, so in that sense trivialisation would be a good thing - and remember, I [b]am[/b] one of those people living with the illness...
trailertrash - Member
to OP: Have you seen a clinical psychiatrist yet?POSTED 2 DAYS AGO #
Surrounded By Zulus - Member
Nope. Never.
I would really suggest getting a formal diagnosis. It is helpful to get a professional opinion. If you are diagnosed with depression then you can get onto a proper treatment programme for clinical depression.
If, instead, it turns out you are actually having a really shit time and experiencing difficult feelings that are in fact a logical response to that (rather than an illogically severe response to circumstances, or some kind of spontaneous depression due to chemical imbalance within your brain, for example) then you can get some direct talking-style therapy which wil really help.
If you do this (the talking therapy - counselling) you might choose the most expensive and highest ranking psychiatrist as a counsellor that you can find. This will both give you the best chance of the best help and also the appreciable outlay will motivate you to get better quickly. Yes, I am serious. Choosing a cheap counsellor is more likely to lead to a long and less satisfactory experience, what some people would call a 'hand holding' exercise, rather than steady progression to a happier state. This is not to say all cheap counsellors are less good, that's not true, but there is a trend as with any profession.
Best
Tim
you might choose the most expensive and highest ranking psychiatrist as a counsellor that you can find
is there some kind of price ranking one can consult ? Would I not be right in thinking there are diminishing returns above some price level ? Am I to take it that my £7 therapy won't last ? Might their eye colour not be the best criterion ? Does this apply to the UK ?
I think you're lumping all drugs in with anti-depressants which aren't the only type of drugs available for depression
non-antidepressant antidepressants? what are they ?
OK, I accept what you say, but how common is such somatic depression ? I see huge amounts of evidence for negative thinking and poor self image in people, even where it doesn't get as bad as clinical depression, and if they can be Gok-Wanishly persuaded to think better of themselves that would be good too.
Hmm, I sort of agree with TJ a bit here, but I don't think he quite understands where Simon has been coming from. It occurs to me that Simon (and TJ for that matter) has a conversational manner that makes it a little hard to understand what he means *at times* and TJ tends to hold onto the first interpretation he arrives at of Simon's comments.
I actually suspect Simon's problems originally stem from difficulty in reading and understanding other people to some extent. I think he actually has an Autistic Spectrum Disorder of some kind (and not just because of this thread!).
I'm not an expert however 🙂
Christ - is anyone on STW NOT depressed?!
Personally I think SFB's behaviour here and eleshwere demonstrates quite clearly why his assertion to have "fixed himself" is self evidently incorrect. that however, is merely my opinion. (Please apply all the usual caveats.... non insulting, non confrontational ya di ya di ya )
I think he actually has an Autistic Spectrum Disorder of some kind
YAY!! I love this :o) Perhaps I'm sociopathic [b]AND[/b] autistic ?? Here's a curve ball for you, might it not be that my reading age matches my advanced physical age, and I understand well enough what others are saying but just don't accept their ideas? Instead of fumblingly trying to psychoanalyse me over the web, I'd suggest it's better to address the actual arguments and concepts.
This thread is depressing now.
Personally I think SFB's behaviour here and eleshwere demonstrates quite clearly why his assertion to have "fixed himself" is self evidently incorrect.
I'm fixed for me, in that I'm happy. If there's a little collateral damage I'm unconcerned, as it is actually self inflicted. I always was obnoxious, but that isn't a medical condition. Now I'm happily obnoxious 🙂
might it not be that my reading age matches my advanced physical age, and I understand well enough what others are saying but just don't accept their ideas?
Mate, it's not that you have trouble reading, it's that you seem to have trouble actually communicating - ie getting your ideas across.
It's why several people are angry with you when really you've got a perfectly good point, and it took 6 or 7 pages to get there 🙂
Apologies for being insulting - it wasn't meant to be.
EDIT: you are far from the only person on here to have trouble getting their ideas across - me for one.
non-antidepressant antidepressants? what are they ?OK, I accept what you say, but how common is such somatic depression ? I see huge amounts of evidence for negative thinking and poor self image in people, even where it doesn't get as bad as clinical depression, and if they can be Gok-Wanishly persuaded to think better of themselves that would be good too.
Lamictal (lamotrigin) was originally an epilepsy drug that they found was also reducing the anxiety and depression of some epilepsy sufferers. They still don't know exactly how it works (something that made me [i]really[/i] sceptical before I started taking it) on people suffering from Bipolar depression but it is now a recognised treatment. While it does have some side effects in about 10% of patients it is side effect free for most people.
I did as much research as possible before I started and one of the most interesting things I found out was that many people on the bipolar spectrum's depression are actually made worse by taking anti-depressants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamotrigine
it's that you seem to have trouble actually communicating
it might be that people are used to a lot more prevarication and circumlocution than I could ever manage...
Apologies for being insulting
I wasn't aware you had 🙂 If I were autistic it wouldn't be my fault.
it might be that people are used to a lot more prevarication and circumlocution than I could ever manage...
No not really. You came across as disparaging, when you really weren't. I'm not the only one that thought that. Just giving you feedback 🙂