Forum menu
BruceWee-Member depression is a chemical imbalance rather than a lack of character.
simonfbarnes - Member I would say that was highly simplistic if not actually wrong
No, no. See, you're right. I'm wrong. You win.
I'd like there to be less unhappy people, less confused thinking!
I hope you can enlighten everyone and help with their confused thinking. Good luck.
It can be done Simon. Some people are naturals at it, some (like me and I suspect you) have to work at it. Of course it's not jsut about adding more words - sometimes just an alternative word totally changes the feeling behind a sentence. Meta-content, if you like.
It's much harder online though; I've got a lot of experience here 🙂
No doubt there will be people who now actually believe that you can "cure" a condition like depression in two weeks through reading a self help book.
ya think ? I must say everything else I've ever posted on this forum has been greeted with universal (usually misplaced) scepticism, and on those few occasions when someone finds themselves agreeing with me they always express resentment! What's different this time ? I suggest you treat your fellow forum members with less contempt and allow them to decide for themselves.
Good thread. No time to read all now, but I'd love to get together for a ride as Sharki suggests.
I suggest you treat your fellow forum members with less contempt and allow them to decide for themselves.
We each have a rational side, and an emotional side. They have different strengths in each of us I think.
Sometimes when people feel annoyed or upset the emotional side takes over.
So when you say something that might offend, the rational analysis of things said goes out of the window.
Most people do not have the powers of logical dissociation that you seem to have. That may be undesirable (or not) but it's true.
So you should therefore be sensitive to it, I feel.
believe that you can "cure" a condition like depression in two weeks through reading a self help book. You can't!I said "fixed". I'm still the same person but happier. I still have the same bad thoughts pop into my head a dozen times a day, but I ridicule them like Prof. Lupin in Harry Potter, and they disappear. I still have occasional brief reactive relapses when circumstances make it harder to dismiss the thoughts, but they're soon overcome.
simonfbarnes - MemberNo doubt there will be people who now actually believe that you can "cure" a condition like depression in two weeks through reading a self help book.
ya think ? I must say everything else I've ever posted on this forum has been greeted with universal (usually misplaced) scepticism, and on those few occasions when someone finds themselves agreeing with me they always express resentment! What's different this time ? I suggest you treat your fellow forum members with less contempt and allow them to decide for themselves.
Touch a nerve ?
Interesting.
By the way, I have chosen to go for the AD, CBT, ride my bike and have a week or two off to do some chilling option (this included building a meccano crane this morning.)
If there's one thing I know about depression it's that there is most definitely no one size fits all approach to curing it.
No doubt there will be people who now actually believe that you can "cure" a condition like depression in two weeks through reading a self help book. You can't!
Well, I think he was saying it worked for him. I don't recall him saying that approach would work for everyone; Indeed he said his own son din't find the book helpful.
Trivialise Depression/MI? How has he done that?
I think Simon's been very honest and open about his own experiences, and has said a few truths which others find difficult to accept.
My experience of therapy that's been effective has been very painful and frightening at times. To deal with the demons, you've got to face them first. Can be terrifying.
See, the thing is, ultimately you are alone with your feelings and emotions. Ain't no nice lovely helpful thing gonna come up and say 'there there all better now'. Ain't gonna happen. At some stage you really will need to toughen TFU, and deal with it yourself. This can be made easier with therapy and possibly drugs, but what you gonna do when you're all alone again?
I think too many people expect that they will do a course of AD's for a while, and be magically cured. That's far more dangerous than telling some one to MTFU. You have to work at getting 'better', and find the right solution that works for you. In many cases, this will unfortunately be a lifetime process. So be it. Much of the time it's about managing a condition sufficiently so that you can operate 'normally'. But you can only deal with demons if you have the courage to face them, and that can only come from within.
Touch a nerve ?
Yeah, that's right, taunt the person who has conceded a propensity to mental health issues. Maybe if you find the perfect derisive comment you can undo some of this repair work he has done to himself and bring him back down to earth with the rest of us.
I can't read this thread anymore.
Binners, is Hora bothering you again?
Do you want a hug?
(this included building a meccano crane this morning.)
Nice! I found a big box of my old Lego round my mum's recently, and find losing myself in it for a couple of hours is immensely therapeutic. A revisiting of happy experiences in childhood. Regression therapy or something! 🙂
I think the problem here is the interpretation of what people mean when they say MTFU. If MTFU = snap out of it and get a grip then that is probably harmful. If MTFU = go face it head on then that that can only be beneficial. Facing it head on doesn't need to be by yourself though.
and has said a few truths which others find difficult to accept.
I think too many people expect that they will do a course of AD's for a while, and be magically cured
I hope you're not aiming those at me...?
So you should therefore be sensitive to it, I feel.
well, you might say a side effect of my therapy is that I have total contempt for the idea of letting one's emotions take over!
Touch a nerve ?
hmmm, is this "insight" again? You imagine, entirely wrongly, one of my mental states ? Had I emotional nerves to be touched you may be damn sure I wouldn't allow them to hurt me beyond a tickle.
Yeah, that's right, taunt the person who has conceded a propensity to mental health issues
oh please, go ahead all you like, I'm used to it. I have a vulnerability, but it would have to be approached by someone I cared a hell of a lot more about before there'd be any threat to my equanimity. With respect, saying, "treat him gently" is quite unhelpful, as one has to develop a kind of robustness to everyday slights. I would hate to be treated differently because I'd once been subject to depression.
re-reading the "Touch a nerve ? " comment, it does appear to be vindictive but also hilariously far off the mark. I do wonder what it was supposed to achieve ...
A revisiting of happy experiences in childhood. Regression therapy or something!
as a recently diagnosed sociopath I find I wouldn't want to do that unless there were children present to share it with 🙂
I have total contempt for the idea of letting one's emotions take over
Fair enough. However, I feel that whilst emotions should not take over a person, they must still be considered. This way you will start to understand other people much better 🙂
Barnes, earlier:
[img] 
[/img]
This way you will start to understand other people much better
now you're speculating about others' mental states again. You have no way to know what I do or don't understand about people.
they must still be considered.
by the people having them!
It may interest you to learn that I discovered that my sister is far less tactful than me (she usually lives in Oz where such things are frowned on)
word to your mothers, long-time lurker here
Whilst never having been diagnosed depressive, i'm a card carrying social-phobia/social-anxiety chappy and have probably dipped my toes in because of that (plus reading the start of this thread and mulling over it made me thoroughly useless at work last night - just wanted to go home and lock the doors). As such my tuppenceworth:
For years I tried the mtfu approach, purposely getting into situations I was uncomfortable with in the hope that things'd click and I'd suddenly get the hang of them, most obviously a degree heavily based upon presentations and group work - appalling failure that was. Having read about anti-shyness drugs I finally kicked myself down to the doctor's about them, and contrary to others' experience on here, they wouldn't prescribe me anything - instead setting me on a ten-session course of CBT. In elements, this was brilliant - I had a real spring in my step coming out of the first few sessions (practising conversations with strangers in different scenarios, learning not to presume what other people think of you etc etc)and coupled this with attending a social anxiety group on Meetup.com, which gave me a non-judgemental arena to practice using the CBT tricks on new people. The failings of the NHS sessions were that the girl conducting them was working from print-offs and the internet rather than knowing the subject, resulting in being told "my boss says we've been doing it wrong and have to start again" in session 8, and various bits feeling irrelevent (possibly misinterpretation by me there though). Agree with whover said it earlier, if you can gain access to one on one CBT sessions and then engineer scenarios to use the techniques it can be very helpful. (count that as my approval toward the group rides idea too)
Personally (and without having tried, so this is speculative), I'd reckon a mixed use of CBT and short term medication could be more effective though - knowing the theory doesn't necessarily enable you to put it into practise (my awful attempts at bunny-hopping are testimony to that). Perhaps a temporary medicinal lightening of the load would ease the first painful steps out of such things, and help realise that it is all much more do-able than it seems - smoker's patch type idea.
all the best to all on here,
p.s. At the squabbling folk: valid or invalid as your points may be, and whether or not they were effectively worded, after umpteen dozen subsequent posts it's all pretty clear what both sides think. Surely time to move on now eh?
Simon - Insight in this situation refers to [i]ones own[/i] insight into [i]ones own [/i]psyche. Its nothing to do with how others perceive you
To me and others you appear to be lacking this which you counter with denial that there is any lack on insight. Its a very common thing to occur in depressive illness.
bermbandits post stated this well but you chose dto deny it by r4eflex instead of considering it at all.
simon - please. You might be quite content with how things are for you. However your views are unhelpful to others at best and positively harmful at worst which is why I asked you to desist from espousing them.
Surely time to move on now eh?
some of us enjoy arguing...
and some of us just indulge in cheap shots 🙁
I'll agree to stop when TJ apologises for saying my contributions were damaging and that I am a sociopath.
You have no way to know what I do or don't understand about people.
No I know. But I try to understand others all the time and take it into consideration. I find it really helps people get along with each other in general.
Anyway I think you are not quite getting what I am saying.
If you criticise something personal to someone in an off-hand way this can be offensive. Then people can get upset.
I'm sure you realise that upsetting others is not good.
I think its the fact that addictive personalities find themselves attracted to "extreme"sports that's the reason for a bit of the squabbling.
Barnes idea of biking is far from an 'extreme' sport tho! 🙂
He's addicted to taking pictures of arses though, which cant be a bad thing.
re-reading the "Touch a nerve ? " comment, it does appear to be vindictive but also hilariously far off the mark. I do wonder what it was supposed to achieve ...
Not at all, just wondered why you chose to answer the same point twice in a matter of a few moments, thus quoting both answers and following it with that simple question.... i.e. did that particular point touch a nerve? Pretty much precisely what I said. Not vindicitive nor assualting anyones psyche, and I wouldn't mind an answer to it too.
& Finally
@ Elfinsafety
Trivialise Depression/MI? How has he done that?
By patronising the OP and the rest of us with this crepe
I suffered it for 30 odd years and fixed myself in 2 weeks after reading "Feeling Good" by David Burns. Best £5 I ever spent
As you yourself actually pointed out in criticism of my earlier post
In many cases, this will unfortunately be a lifetime process. So be it. Much of the time it's about managing a condition sufficiently so that you can operate 'normally'.
Unfortunately I suspect you probably haven’t read what I’d posted before your post. So you might find that’s pretty much what I originally said here:-
Personally I’ve recently completed CBT and am still taking the “happy pills” and have honestly never been better in my life. I cannot however claim to be cured/fixed, merely in a more manageable place, In fact I’d go as far to say that I’m not even sure that a cure is possible. So I’d love to hear more about sfb’s road to Damascus moment.
And that in essence is the point. Pontificating about fixing oneself in 2 weeks is entirely unhelpful to genuine sufferers or even to self deluding souls who believe that they can actually suffer from depression AND deal with it on a DIY basis in two weeks. Simon is at his own admission full of contrary views and generally irritating, and is in all likelihood something of a troll by nature. This however is just irresponsible and not worthy of his acclaimed intellect IMHO. There are a great number of people wrestling with depression who inhabit this forum, there are few if any who will receive anything more useful than additional upset and pain through SFB’s post. Therefore I object strongly to it. Fair enough??
I think this is worth repeating as well
Berm Bandit - MemberAnd he's broached a difficult subject in an open and honest manner
Actually thats not quite correct, what he's done is trivialised a wide spread and severe social problem that is far too frequently swept under the carpet and dealt with by the use of phrases such as "MTFU", "get a grip" or "sort yourself out", often by the very people to whom you should be able to look to for help. The fact of his original statement is either he wasn't a sufferer, or alternatively and much more likely, he's just moved himself into a new phase of the same condition which is largely personified by denial. In so doing he's simply undermining countless other people who might think that he had the faintest idea what he is talking about. No doubt there will be people who now actually believe that you can "cure" a condition like depression in two weeks through reading a self help book. You can't!
If you criticise something personal to someone in an off-hand way this can be offensive. Then people can get upset.
yes, I understand that. But if you choose to attach emotional value to inanimate things (like drugs or bicycles) that is your choice and I am not going to humour your irrationality
I'm sure you realise that upsetting others is not good.
in no way. It is my vocation to puncture disfunctional complacency.
Barnes idea of biking is far from an 'extreme' sport tho!
quite so, we're all happy-clappy share-and-enjoy :o)
yes, I understand that. But if you choose to attach emotional value to inanimate things (like drugs or bicycles) that is your choice and I am not going to humour your irrationality
Ah.. interesting. We are not attaching emotional value to inanimate things. When we talk about drugs, we are obviously talking about the act of taking them, aren't we? Otherwise what would be the point?
If you call drugs 'stupid' you must therefore be calling the act of taking them stupid. And then accusing anyone of taking them of being stupid themselves.
See how it works?
It is my vocation to puncture disfunctional complacency.
What about those who are not dysfunctionally complacent but you upset anyway?
I understand you SFB, but I don't love you like elfin does.
Not at all, just wondered why you chose to answer the same point twice in a matter of a few moments
oh sorry, I had 2 different responses to the same quote, one being that I never claimed to have been cured, the other that suggesting people would swallow my story uncritically flew in the face of their responses to every other thing I have ever said on the forum. Are we rationed to one thought at a time ?
BTW I withdraw my demand for TJ to apologise - his facile and fatuous remote diagnosis of denial and sociopathic tendencies in me explodes any credibilty he may ever have had in his field and I for one hope he is well supervised at work lest his hapless charges suffer similar sleights...
Simon - Insight in this situation refers to ones own insight into ones own psyche. Its nothing to do with how others perceive you
in which case you have even less scope to divine my own!
However your views are unhelpful to others at best and positively harmful at worst which is why I asked you to desist from espousing them.hmmm, this isn't exactly the apology I requested, however I've covered that above. My answer is "fat chance".
If you call drugs 'stupid' you must therefore be calling the act of taking them stupid.
whoa boy! One doesn't follow from the other. That makes as much sense as saying "animals are stupid, so if you eat them, you become stupid too"
What about those who are not dysfunctionally complacent but you upset anyway?
I'd like them to grow up
Just returned to this thread with a happier head and wish I hadn't.
Glad you were happier but don't let silly forum chatter bring you down - it's supposed to be fun 🙂 I'm sure TJ thinks he's acting for the best despite his hopelessly innaccurate prognostications, and for my part I'm offering the hope of a drug-free recovery (possibly after palliative* medication)
You are 2 sides of the same coin.
eeek, that's very vindictive FC 🙁
* FYI palliative means "sparing suffering" and not "waiting to die"...
What I meant Simon, is that you are both determined to show you are right. That's fine when argueing about helmets, but I don't think it's exactly fitting on this thread.
Hmm.
By 'fixed', I interpreted Simon's comments as he'd read a book which gave him a whole new perspective on things, which had helped him find a 'solution' to things. I don't think that's impossible, although probably unlikely in most cases I'd imagine.
And I don't think he meant he was completely 'cured'. Just that he'd found something that worked for him. Bit like if you 'fix' a car engine, but there's always the possibility that it may break down again. Maybe with careful management and servicing, it won't.
That's my interpretation, anyway, and I can relate to what Simon is saying.
I don't really think that telling him to shut up, or posting silly tags is particularly helpful. Simon has posted some opinions that differ from others, but there's a fair bit of sense in there, if you choose to forget who's saying it, and concentrate on what's being said.
As for his approach; I'll reiterate that I don't think it's wise to be too gentle with such issues. Hence why I think his comments are fair and valid. I don't see any attempt to insult or offend people; maybe that is others' perception however. If we always made sure we couldn't possibly offend someone, then maybe we'd never say anything at all.
One aspect of undergoing treatment for Depression/MI, is that at ties you will need to hear things you don't want to. Is it therefore better not to hear them, even though you may really need to? I don't think so.
one being that I never claimed to have been cured
sorry I obviously misunderstood the word [i]"fixed"[/i] in the context of
suffered it for 30 odd years and fixed myself in 2 weeks
Are we rationed to one thought at a time ?
Nope that was the precise point that you had in fact been thinking about it for some time, necessitating two seperate posts rather than a considered and collated one, thus the comment [i]"touched a nerve?[/i]. However on reflection maybe that wouldn't be a bad idea though limiting you to the one 😉
whoa boy! One doesn't follow from the other. That makes as much sense as saying "animals are stupid, so if you eat them, you become stupid too"
Eh? No! Totally different thing!
Look, a drug that has not been taken is like a novel that has not been written. It has no interaction with anything and no intrinsic use. They are made to be taken and have an effect. So it is the TAKING of the drugs that we are talking about.
Still, this goes to illustrate my point, which is that [b]care needs to be taken to ensure our point is understood as we wish it to be[/b].
What I meant Simon, is that you are both determined to show you are right
not exactly. TJ [b]knows[/b] he is right, so has nothing to prove. I reject the concept and just make allegations.
or posting silly tags is particularly helpful
eeek, I missed them 🙁
So it is the TAKING of the drugs that we are talking about.
when you're talking maybe, but not me. I call the drugs stupid because they made me feel variously bad, indifferent to everything and embarrassed at the side effects. A stupid chemical is no substitute for understanding.
care needs to be taken to ensure our point is understood as we wish it to be
yes I see what you mean, but this turns out to be largely impossible with [i]homo sapiens[/i].
I call the drugs stupid because they made me feel variously...
But only after you took them!
yes I see what you mean, but this turns out to be largely impossible with homo sapiens
No, it's not.. it just takes a bit of care 🙂
Anyway, we've made some progress in today's session. To sum up:
1) relying on drugs as a crutch or fix-all pill is bad (clearly)
2) some people have measurable neurological problems that the drugs may help
3) we need to be careful with our words otherwise people might get the wrong idea.
Same time next week?
3) we need to be careful with our words otherwise people might get the wrong idea.
I would say "Regardless of what you say some people will get the wrong end of the stick". I take care to say what's in my head and then elaborate subsequently as required.
1) relying on drugs as a crutch or fix-all pill is bad (clearly)
Actually, I was saying that I'm using drugs as a fix-all (Lamictal btw, working great and no side effects, probably be on them for the next few years). Hence the fact that I believe that my condition is purely a chemical imbalance.
There are a great number of people wrestling with depression who inhabit this forum
It's a cheap shot, but after reading this thread, I'm not really surprised.