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Children please cease and desist....
This is not the place to have a bun fight.
Depression is a very serious matter, and its affects will be different for different people. Peoples responses to drugs/cbt/other therapies will be different too. I do not plan to air my experiences on a public forum as what "worked" (or didn't work as the case may be) for me will not be relevant to the OP. What worked or didn't work for you will probably not be relevant to the OP either, so there is little point in arguing as to who/what/where/why is best so please stop.
I agree to a point (my opinion of "health visitors" and midwives is similarly cynical) but mental health is a heavily research area (there's money to be made in them thar pills) and there's massive swathes of empirical, double-blind trial, statistical results to back up the efficacy of some treatments. Those treatments act on pathways in such a technical manner that I havent studied sufficiently to be able to criticise.
Some of the negative side effects of depression treatments I am familiar with I dislike intensely, but I couldnt give you more than a bit of rhetoric as to why.
I'm with Barnes on this one, when it comes to drugs.
Anti-depressants etc are given out far too freely by irresponsible (probably overworked) GPs who simply don't have the resources available to give their patients the treatment they really need. 'Here, here's some Citalopram. Be happy'.
That's like giving someone an aspirin for the pain when they've got a gaping wound. It may temporarily alleviate the pain a bit, but it doesn't deal with the problem directly and effectively.
I've taken all sorts of drugs over the years, both recreational and prescribed. By far the worst drugs I've ever taken have been some prescribed medication for depression. I've ended up in hospital strapped to a bed, hallucinating and being absolutely terrified as the result of certain drugs having an adverse effect on my psychological state. No Acid trip has been anywhere near as frightening.
The sad truth is, is that Mental Illness has never had the kind of funding and resources to be able to effectively treat most people who suffer. As I've said earlier, drugs are far cheaper than intensive long-term one to one counselling. Trouble is, a person needs to be deemed pretty ill, or a danger to themselves and/or others, before they will get proper treatment.
Nah, I'm with Barnes all the way. I'm very angry that the underlying causes of my illness were constantly ignored, and I was fobbed off with various pills and left to deal with it myself. Thankfully now I'm receiving the treatment I really should have had years ago. It's very painful and distressing a times, but also amazingly liberating. As though I can now start to feel less constrained by things that bound me, which I couldn't even understand. And the whole process has helped train myself, in being able to recognise and therefore deal with issues when they arise, much more effectively. Makes me feel stronger and less helpless, and ultimately happier.
No drugs can get you to that stage. They can only help, if used very carefully, with a programme of other therapy. Using them on their own is never going to be that effective in the long run. 'Cos when the drugs wear off, the demons are still there.
So lay off Barnes. Because you know what? Maybe, just maybe, he's talking sense.
OK SFB. This is all a bit glib and clearly I only have your postings to go on
Insight - the ability to see within yourself and to understand your own illness. Clearly lacking in you in my professional opinion. As you have no insight you cannot appreciate where you are wrong.
You say "fixed" with CBT. Actually from my perspective you have learnt a coping mechanism at the expense of your ability to feel emotions and to have any empathy at all. You clearly have some sociopathic / personality disorder traits. CBT appeals to someone who sees the world in mechanistic ways and wants a prescriptive solution.
To suggest to vulnerable people that what you have done is the only and best "cure" is very damaging
To suggest that someone in your state is cured is wrong
Your faith in CBT is wrong - it is one tool amongst many and in some circumstances is very helpful. In others it is not. Your dismissal of drugs is wrong - like CBT they are a very useful tool and have completely revolutionised the treatment of depression allowing deep intractable depressions to be successfully treated
the key think here is that you cannot possibly discuss this with any clarity because of your lack of insight and you false premises that your working from, thus your interventions are not helpful but infact postivily harmful
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, couple this with your lack of insight and your crippled emotional state and its very bad advice you give indeed.
I have my own experience of the black dog. What helped me was a combination of ADs and CBT which seems to be a pretty common theme on this thread. I hope that no-one who has been or still is depressed would wish it on anybody else but reading this thread does show how many people do suffer form it and that sufferers are not unique in being depressed even if every case is different. I accept that what worked for me won't necessarily work for anyone else and it may be that you need to go through a number of strategies before finding your answer. Sharing our experiences can be helpful but TJ and SFB having a go at each other doesn't help anybody. How about calling a truce guys and walking away from the thread? I don't think that you will convince each other that your position is correct so maybe better just to withdraw.
TJ attempting to guilt trip me into withdrawing for vaguely hinted at falsehoods
He's not... He's disagreeing with you in the most direct way possible.
So Barnes - if I punch you in the face, can I rightly say 'stop whining, it's your fault for feeling pain?'
I'm worried because SFB is using arguments that I used myself for a long time and if I was reading them a few years ago it would have just reinforced my prejudices against drugs and seeking medical help in general. If anyone else is in the same position as I was I don't think it would help them.
SFB, I can't help but think you are showing off when you start saying things like 'superior methods'. I'm not saying you're method is wrong, right, inferior, or superior. I'm just saying that [i]you[/i] can't say the same thing either to anyone.
(there's money to be made in them thar pills)
yes quite, which is why heavy scepticism is appropriate. Drugs make money. Self help cost me £5 it total, oh, and another £2 for an exercise book to write down my feelings and rebuttals.
Some of the negative side effects of depression treatments I am familiar with I dislike intensely
I had dry mouth, inability to pee, inability to come, and various other embarrassing and uncomfortable things I've gladly now forgotten 🙁
I'm with Barnes on this one, when it comes to drugs.
I'm not arguing in any way about drugs.
What I have a problem with is his attitude towards how he communicates with others.
SFB, I can't help but think you are showing off when you start saying things like 'superior methods'.
I just picked up the word you used. I have nothing to gain from this. I hate to see people suffer unnecessarily, particularly when I was able to overcome it so easily once the right method was shown to me. This doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else, any more than 3 decades of suffering made me any worse. I freely admit I gave the book to my son and he found it useless - it does depend on one's mindset.
BruceWee - MemberI'm worried because SFB is using arguments that I used myself for a long time and if I was reading them a few years ago it would have just reinforced my prejudices against drugs and seeking medical help in general. If anyone else is in the same position as I was I don't think it would help them.
Why is why I am arguing with him - dangerous viewpoint and a calssic bit of denial / lack of insight
cu dubh - Member........... but TJ and SFB having a go at each other doesn't help anybody. How about calling a truce guys and walking away from the thread? I don't think that you will convince each other that your position is correct so maybe better just to withdraw.
I hope I have shown others that if not SFB that his attitudes are harmful and not to be discouraged from seeking treatment by them.
With that - I will bow out.
What I have a problem with is his attitude towards how he communicates with others.
I'm sure my attitudes are of no consequence whatever 🙂 Didn't you say people are different ?
What I have a problem with is his attitude towards how he communicates with others.
I don't. I think Barnes is honest and open about his opinions and feelings, more so that most others on here. I quite like his frank and clinical approach; because there comes a time when you have to face reality, and reality ain't always very nice.
What I can't stand is to much of the 'there there, have a cup of tea' type of approach. Because it doesn't work when what's needed is some pretty invasive and often painful 'surgery'. Whilst I think it's lovely that there are lots of kind words and sympathy on this thread, they alone aren't going to solve all problems. Sometimes you've got to be tough. In this regard, I feel that Simon's approach is as valid as any other.
I'm always suspicious of sympathy in this, as I feel it tends to encourage dependency and selfindulgence. While I hate seeing people suffer, the knowledge that so much of it is effectively self inflicted makes me impatient.
I don't. I think Barnes is honest and open about his opinions and feelings, more so that most others on here. I quite like his frank and clinical approach; because there comes a time when you have to face reality, and reality ain't always very nice.What I can't stand is to much of the 'there there, have a cup of tea' type of approach. Because it doesn't work when what's needed is some pretty invasive and often painful 'surgery'. Whilst I think it's lovely that there are lots of kind words and sympathy on this thread, they alone aren't going to solve all problems. Sometimes you've got to be tough. In this regard, I feel that Simon's approach is as valid as any other.
+ Several.
I'm sure my attitudes are of no consequence whatever
They wouldn't be if you didn't start dispensing advice...
Elfin, you misunderstand. What he's saying is that it doesn't matter if what he says is offensive - it's the listener's fault for being offensive.
I just don't agree. I don't walk down the road swinging my arms all around me and then telling people it's their fault for being in my way... We all have to get along (or bugger off entirely, which isn't nice), and we each have an obligation to a) try not to offend/insult/upset others and b) to try and see the best in what others have said so we don't get overly upset etc.
In other words, human interaction is a TWO way street.
Mentioned it a few pages ago but has anyone read The Flying Scotsman by Graeme Obree or the film for that matter?
try not to offend/insult/upset others
Conversely, sometimes the very best way to help some people is to offend/insult/upset people. As long as it is done with love and not with spite. I do not believe SFB is spiteful, I just think he understands that it is each persons own responsibility to manage their own behaviour.
You certainly won't be rid of him all the while you engage him and it is to the detriment of what was looking like a very positive and interesting thread until people started taking issue with the experiences and statements of others. Discuss the topic, not each other. There are a million other threads to belittle each other on.
Seen the film, truly gash IMO.
As an aside, is there any thread that can't be turned into a battle between some EPIC INTERNET BATTLE LEGENDS?
Insight - the ability to see within yourself and to understand your own illness
I'm interested to know how you can know better than me what I know about myself ? Illness ? I'd describe it as a melancholy and selfdestructive tendency. I can still feel it tugging at me most days, but I just set it aside. Describing it as an illness sounds too much like some external or inescapable agency, when in fact I know it's just a useless part of myself, a mental appendix.
Actually from my perspective you have learnt a coping mechanism at the expense of your ability to feel emotions and to have any empathy at all
this is funny. You assert "I'm right and you're wrong", and then go on to completly misconstrue me. Yes I have a method to cope with negativism, by directing my thoughts positively, so I can choose my emotional gamut and revel in it. I said above I'm falling in love inadvisedly, and I've been wracked with sobs, exultant, distracted etc etc whilst at the same time being fully aware that I'm choosing to indulge these feelings, and am doing so for the excitement. I also understand about the way other people feel, but I don't allow them to use their bad feelings to advantage.
Elfin, you misunderstand. What he's saying is that it doesn't matter if what he says is offensive - it's the listener's fault for being offensive.
No, I think [i]you[/i] misunderstand. Simon isn't trying to offend anyone, merely express his own views on the subject. Views I happen to largely agree with, actually. As possibly others do to. Why shouldn't he express them, just because someone else [i]might[/i] be offended?
Seriously, if you do suffer from Depression/MI, then you need to be prepared to be shocked and offended at times, because the truth isn't this lovely nice happy thing you'd like it to be. Successful therapy often involves stirring up those feelings of anger, sadness, horror and revulsion, because you need to understand what creates them within yourself.
Seen the film, truly gash IMO.
How come? I thought it was good but then I'd read the book so was maybe filling in some of the blanks that weren't in the film.
They wouldn't be if you didn't start dispensing advice...
baby/bathwater
the content of my argument is distinct from my method of expression
SFB. Refresh my memory, you are a Tory voter right?
I hope I have shown others that if not SFB that his attitudes are harmful and not to be discouraged from seeking treatment by them.
I never said to avoid treatment. By all means get treated. Just don't necessarily insist on a passive chemical pathway. I have to say the CBT I eventually got on the NHS was far more vague than what I got from a book, but it may work fine for some.
You clearly have some sociopathic / personality disorder traits. CBT appeals to someone who sees the world in mechanistic ways and wants a prescriptive solution.
is this you being right ??
I've already admitted to a depressive tendency, which might be termed a personality disorder, and yes, as a control freak, a method allowing me to do something active is going to work better than passive acceptance of intervention. But sociopathic ? Have you never noticed whenever I talk about biking it's always in terms of shared enjoyment and sociability ? It's one thing to be aware of others' mental states (which you appear not to be achieving unless you are mischeviously teasing us) and another to allow them to overcome my own preferences.
To suggest to vulnerable people that what you have done is the only and best "cure" is very damaging
which I never did
To suggest that someone in your state is cured is wrong
again, I didn't. I said "fixed". My depressive tendency is avoided through simple mental exercises, which after 9 years are usually automatic.
Your dismissal of drugs is wrong - like CBT they are a very useful tool and have completely revolutionised the treatment of depression allowing deep intractable depressions to be successfully treated
OK, I'll accept that inasmuch as I agree they are useful in acute circumstances, but long term wouldn't most of us prefer not to take such flawed medicines ?
the key think here is that you cannot possibly discuss this with any clarity because of your lack of insight and you false premises that your working from, thus your interventions are not helpful but infact postivily harmful
I remain to be convinced on this. Your claimed insight proved to be so wrong when applied to me I feel free to be sceptical about your other assertions too.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, couple this with your lack of insight and your crippled emotional state and its very bad advice you give indeed.
"crippled"? Very good. Do I need medicine or a wheelchair ? I think I'll take cripped but happy over being desperately miserable emotional flotsam any day. To quote a self-professed authority on the matter "You are wrong" 🙂
Simon isn't trying to offend anyone, merely express his own views on the subject.
No I know. He's still terrible at communicating though...
Berm Bandit - Member
SFB. Refresh my memory, you are a Tory voter right?
Err hello ...... anyone there?? 😯
He's still terrible at communicating though...
because I don't choose to lard up everything I say with a lot of useless parenthesisation as you recommended?
because I don't choose to lard up everything I say with a lot of useless parenthesisation as you recommended
No. I don't recommend that. I recommend having some sensibility to how what you say might be received. Big difference.
I disagree.
All the time I've been on STW, Simon has remained one of the most entertaining and enigmatic characters whose posts I've had the (dis)pleasure to read. I've never met him, but I feel that he is a funny, quirky extremely intelligent person, who is also ultimately very caring and sensitive towards others. I concede that his manner may not quite fit into an accepted 'norm', but his individuality, honesty and openness is something I find refreshing and positive.
He is certainly one person I'd love to meet in real life, for sure, and I hope one day I will. In an odd way, I spose I even consider him a friend.
I don't know if I'd feel the same if he wasn't so effective a [b]communicator[/b].
Hey ho.
I like Barnes too. He does however seem to display certain characteristics very strongly, which tend to mean he gets into certain kinds of arguments. Sometimes through pedantry and sometimes through that mentioned above.
All I try and do is point out where this could be improved, and why I believe it is important to improve.
Well, I feel that his contribution to this particular thread has been valuable, as have most others'.
And he's broached a difficult subject in an open and honest manner. Fair play to him.
He does raise a valid point, but it just came over as disparaging, dismissive and offensive... That was my problem.
but it just came over as disparaging, dismissive and offensive..
in your head. I'm doing my readers the compliment of assuming they already know that everything I say is my opinion, based on my life and experiences, and not graven on stone by the Almighty. I always favour brevity. This does require the reader to concentrate on the content and not jump to unfounded conclusions.
PS I'm rather embarrassed by [b]elfin[/b]'s compliments and I feel he has set an impossibly high bar to ambition. I wish I were the person he describes!
in your head
Here we go again.
Look. When I have a conversation I try to make sure my meaning is conveyed correctly. If it's not, I apologise and rephrase. I don't blame others for not understanding me. After all, what else do we have to go on other than what you say?
I don't think I'm the only one who interpreted your comments in the way I did, and I don't think it was unreasonable.
I've met a fair few people who communicate in a slightly unusual way, and where you have to second guess what they actually mean. You're one of them.
And he's broached a difficult subject in an open and honest manner
Actually thats not quite correct, what he's done is trivialised a wide spread and severe social problem that is far too frequently swept under the carpet and dealt with by the use of phrases such as "MTFU", "get a grip" or "sort yourself out", often by the very people to whom you should be able to look to for help. The fact of his original statement is either he wasn't a sufferer, or alternatively and much more likely, he's just moved himself into a new phase of the same condition which is largely personified by denial. In so doing he's simply undermining countless other people who might think that he had the faintest idea what he is talking about. No doubt there will be people who now actually believe that you can "cure" a condition like depression in two weeks through reading a self help book. You can't!
in your head. I'm doing my readers the compliment of assuming they already know that everything I say is my opinion, based on my life and experiences, and not graven on stone by the Almighty. I always favour brevity. This does require the reader to concentrate on the content and not jump to unfounded conclusions.PS I'm rather embarrassed by elfin's compliments and I feel he has set an impossibly high bar to ambition. I wish I were the person he describes!
OK, you win. Congratulations.
. I don't blame others for not understanding me. After all, what else do we have to go on other than what you say?
no blame attaches. I just posit that it's not possible to guess how anyone might have taken it, so I didn't bother.
and where you have to second guess what they actually mean. You're one of them.
had that been the case it would have been almost as complimentary as elfin's love letter, but from my end my words say concisely what I mean, stripped bare of preconception.
Well said bermbandit - the point I was trying to make.
OK, you win. Congratulations.
I don't want to win, that's childish. I'd like there to be less unhappy people, less confused thinking!
I just posit that it's not possible to guess how anyone might have taken it, so I didn't bother
Hmm.. well I've spent my life trying to guess these things, and I've made great improvements. I can see how it would seem impossible to some folk though. If you find it hard, I would suggest acknowledging that you could be misconstrued and choosing your sentences accordingly...
but [b]from my end[/b] my words say concisely what I mean, stripped bare of preconception.
This is very good! Well done 🙂
(sorry if that sounds patronising!)
what he's done is trivialised a wide spread and severe social problem that is far too frequently swept under the carpet and dealt with by the use of phrases such as "MTFU", "get a grip" or "sort yourself out"
trivialised how ?? I was careful not to use those unhelpful terms, even though self reliance is a powerful technique once correctly applied. A better way to express it is "Learn not to entertain destructive thought patterns"
which is largely personified by denial.
denying one's selfdestructive, angry and violent tendencies is a very good idea. I wish everyone would. Do good things instead. But this isn't denial. I know who I am, and am keenly aware of my flaws, and I do my best to mitigate them.
believe that you can "cure" a condition like depression in two weeks through reading a self help book. You can't!
I said "fixed". I'm still the same person but happier. I still have the same bad thoughts pop into my head a dozen times a day, but I ridicule them like Prof. Lupin in Harry Potter, and they disappear. I still have occasional brief reactive relapses when circumstances make it harder to dismiss the thoughts, but they're soon overcome.
I would suggest acknowledging that you could be misconstrued and choosing your sentences accordingly.
I know I will be misconstrued, that's the nature of language - I'm just not sure adding more words will improve the intelligibility
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