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Just because something does not work for you does not make it contemptible.
except that it doesn't matter if I diss inanimate things. They don't care.
I've been thinking about this, and the reason for my strong reaction is that my recovery was based on the development of staunch self reliance. Depression of boring and pointless, so there's no point inflicting the details on anyone else, and learning the simple measures to overcome the distorted thinking involved is a personal effort that no one else can do for you. I wasted years using the drugs which merely postponed recovery 🙁
Although I can believe that there are a few people with serious hormonal imbalances leading to depression, I encounter distorted, negative thinking on a daily basis, and find it frustrating that a kind of victim culture allows people to persist in helplessness unnecessarily!
except that it doesn't matter if I diss inanimate things. They don't care.
No but it's not hard to see that disparaging something that someone else considers important is potentially insulting to that person...
and find it frustrating that a kind of victim culture allows people to persist in helplessness unnecessarily
That's one side of it. There is another side though, as detailed above.
This is a sensitive area, so be careful with your size 13s.
SFB - do yourself and others a favour and leave it alone
Your understanding of depression is far from the truth and your dismissal of drugs is simply wrong and very damaging. Please drop it.
RE read my posts above. Depression is complex and multi factorial and no one answer suits all.
No but it's not hard to see that disparaging something that someone else considers important is potentially insulting to that person
distorted thinking. CBT teaches you such interpretations are pointless 🙂
This is a sensitive area, so be careful with your size 13s.
exactly wrong. The "sensitivity" is a fundamental part of the problem. If you feel guilty for relying on a drug you should give yourself a break. The stuff I say is about me and doesn't reflect on anyone else. That's how people are.
what ? Drugs did me a big disservice so I'm rightly contemptuous of them! Your experience may differ, but I cannot comment on that.
but just because they didn't work for you doesn't mean they don't for everyone. For a lot of people the drugs are exactly what they need to ge them in the right state of mind for the cbt or other counselling to work effectively - that's exactly what they did for me. Without the drugs first I just wouldn't have been able to get my head around the CBT at all.
SFB - you are being very disparaging about others, you are being very dismissive of other approaches. You are giving bad and wrong advice based on a totally false premise and a huge lack of understanding
Not all depression is what you had, CBT does not work for all.
Prozac, with other things, worked for me.
It was also excellent at reducing the anxiety I was suffering from and was slowly eating into my self-belief, which was not a pleasant thing to go through.
However, as shown in this thread mental illnesses are deeply personal things and as per other things in life what may work for one person will not work for other.
When my GP first prescribed Prozac for me I googled it and read some scary things and was nervous about taking it, but it really did work.
I know what sensitive subject this is and though not a sufferer I have been very close to several people who are or have been, including my future wife. This was an interview I found whilst researching the effects of SSRI drugs and though it may be of interest to this thread.
[url= http://www.naturalnews.com/011353_bad_medicine_psychiatric_drug.html ]Bad Medicine.[/url]
I think I understand SFBs approach... is it about turning down your ability to be offended or outraged or uncomfortable when faced with situations/people that might make you feel offended/outraged/uncomfortable?
A bit of turning down your empathy volume switch?
I can see how that would help with regard to inter-personal relationships, and by extension, with regard to your relationship with yourself.
distorted thinking. CBT teaches you such interpretations are pointless
Er, it's not distorted thinking, it's how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is.
People's deep emotions are a sensitive area, that's a fact I'm afraid. You don't understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel.
The stuff I say is about me and doesn't reflect on anyone else
Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!
I think I understand SFBs approach... is it about turning down your ability to be offended or outraged or uncomfortable when faced with situations/people that might make you feel offended/outraged/uncomfortable?
exactly. So long as you remain "sensitive" you allow yourself to be hurt by things which need not. If someone hits you, that hurts. If someone slags you off, it's just their opinion. They're entitled to it, but you don't have to accept it. Likewise, people think so differently, it's impossible to predict how they'll respond to whatever you do or say, so don't bother. By all means apologise if they claim to have been upset, but realise that this emotional hurt is also a prime tool of manipulation: "Don't do X or you'll hurt me" is essentially a power play. Don't buy into that crap.
This doesn't mean abandoning empathy or compassion, just not going overboard with trying to conform to the expectations of others which don't fit your own mindset and preferences.
Sorry I'm late (no change there, then). Thanks to most for helpful input, and to one contributor in particular for recent advice, which fitted exactly. Personally I'd rather get by without medication, since it's outside things giving me trouble, but it means that I'm dependent on friends and family. They've all been understanding and supportive. My GP, though, wanted to start me immediately on medication. Personally I felt I needed to know more about the problem first.
I'm in Wessex if anyone wants a therapeutic pootle, with cake.
A very close friend of mine did something very bad last week and is now on strong medication and under constant watch. The surprising thing about this is it came from nowhere, without warning and this person is always upbeat, happy and the life and soul. There is nothing going on like money trouble or family issues and this person looks to have absolutly no reason for doing what they did.
I am completely baffled and just can't get my head around it. I can only assume that something in this persons chemistry went haywire and am grateful that medication exsists to help.
Er, it's not distorted thinking, it's how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is.
yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it's not your responsibility.
People's deep emotions are a sensitive area, that's a fact I'm afraid. You don't understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel.
emotions are meaningless, they are what fish use instead of thinking. We can think and we choose our emotions. Choosing happy ones is better.
Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!
I only take responsibility for my own emotional wellbeing. It's a personal journey for all of us. I'm just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.
but you need to learn how others feel.
you can never know this, as you only have what they tell you, and they may not be truthful in order to get you to do what they want instead, or they may allow themselves to hurt in order to get attention and support. Essentially, it doesn't matter what people feel, it only matters what they do.
[i]This doesn't mean abandoning empathy or compassion, just not going overboard with trying to conform to the expectations of others which don't fit your own mindset and preferences.[/i]
I get it....
It's what I do at work; I have developed an ability to deal with the most upsetting, difficult situations, fraught with emotion, sadness and so on in a 'professional' way. It's about being able to distance yourself from stuff so you can still function at a high level.
Interesting...
It's not a lack of empathy, it's not about 'not caring', it's about the preservation of self.
yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it's not your responsibility.
It's normal behaviour. You have a responsibility to be nice to others in a social situation. You can't just act badly and then tell them it's their fault for being offended.
emotions are meaningless
In techno geek land maybe, but not out here. I don't think I want to live in your ideal emotionless world!
I'm just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.
And being an arse at the same time. Great.
It's not a lack of empathy, it's not about 'not caring', it's about the preservation of self.
yes, good. We're all aware to some extent of how others think and react, and it's important not to fall into the trap of going along with that to the point where you do things you don't want to conform with their expectations. Do things for your own reasons, not other people's. That way you'll be happier and immune to manipulation
Simon please
simonfbarnes - Member"Er, it's not distorted thinking, it's how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is."
yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it's not your responsibility.
Totally wrong attitude. Judgemental and blaming.
"People's deep emotions are a sensitive area, that's a fact I'm afraid. You don't understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel".emotions are meaningless, they are what fish use instead of thinking. We can think and we choose our emotions. Choosing happy ones is better.
Emotions are not meaningless. They are a part of who we are You clearly have just learnt to shut down yours. Its not healthy.
Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!I only take responsibility for my own emotional wellbeing. It's a personal journey for all of us. I'm just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.
Actually you have said simple CBT is the only way and if you use drugs you are wrong.
"but you need to learn how others feel".you can never know this, as you only have what they tell you, and they may not be truthful in order to get you to do what they want instead, or they may allow themselves to hurt in order to get attention and support. Essentially, it doesn't matter what people feel, it only matters what they do.
Thats a very cruel attitude and will make it very difficult for you to form emotional bonds and meaningful relationships
Simon - you have your experiences. However they are not the only answer and emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach.
Do things for your own reasons, not other people's. That way you'll be happier and immune to manipulation
Clearly. But that doesn't then extend to mouthing off without any care to how others may think.
There's a middle ground between being a doormat and being a self centred c*ck.
I don't think I want to live in your ideal emotionless world!
I didn't say that. Emotions are fun! Just don't impute meaning to them. You choose how you feel, so choose carefully.
And being an arse at the same time. Great.
but that's your opinion. I don't mind if you think that because it makes no difference to me. I'm being forceful because I think it's important to avoid passivity to depression.
A very close friend of mine did something very bad last week and is now on strong medication and under constant watch. The surprising thing about this is it came from nowhere, without warning and this person is always upbeat, happy and the life and soul. There is nothing going on like money trouble or family issues and this person looks to have absolutly no reason for doing what they did.I am completely baffled and just can't get my head around it. I can only assume that something in this persons chemistry went haywire and am grateful that medication exisits to help.
I can actually understand this. It's very much like the situation I was in but luckily for me my mask started to slip as I was getting really desperate and some close friends of mine were able to drag me into the doctor's office. I'm not very good at hiding my emotions but I was able to mask the depression by being unusually cranky and aggressive. I think it confused people because I was normally very easy to get along with but I don't think it ever came across as depression. It could be your friend being upbeat all the time was his way of dealing with it. The thing to remember is that he's still exactly the same person you've always liked, he just has an illness that he's been concealing from everyone probably to save them worrying.
Totally wrong attitude. Judgemental and blaming.
followed by...
emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach
Lets just keep it all positive eh?
. But that doesn't then extend to mouthing off without any care to how others may think.
it's impossible to know what others think. You might be able to understand their claims but they may not know all that clearly. Seeing what they do is the best indicator. If they choose to say they feel bad because of what you've said, you can take it under advisement.
Good call Torminalis
I am just frustrated by Barnes attitude here. I'll butt out now .
Zulu - email me if you want a little non-judgemental discussion of what your options are and what you can expect from them.
However they are not the only answer and emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach.
ha ha, I was crippied by unbounded emotion before, that's what depression is! Now I have them more or less under control (though as it happens I'm allowing myself to fall in love with a rather unsuitable subject), I feel healed, not crippled, and my relationships with other people work much better.
I'm not saying don't have emotions, and that would be impossible anyway (unless heavily drugged), just don't pretend they are in control.
it's impossible to know what others think
Ah, we are getting somewhere 🙂
If they choose to say they feel bad because of what you've said, you can take it under advisement.
Emotions are not a choice for everyone mate. You may feel that they are for you, which may have helped you with your own problems, but it's not like that for everyone.
I am just frustrated by Barnes attitude here.
TJ, think about that. What benefit do you derive by allowing yourself to feel frustrated? By all means disagree, but instead of running away wailing, come up with a plausible counter argument. You'll feel better.
But Barnes, TJ is not you. Your mind does not work the same as everyone else's. You have to understand that.
Emotions are not a choice for everyone mate.
this is an invitation to victimhood or worse "I can't help it!" or the awful "You made me do it!". I dont feel I can control my emotions (though once upon I time I thought the idea was ridiculous), I know it through observation.
SFB - your basic premises are wrong and you have no insight into this
It would take far more than a few forum posts to go into this and your certainty about depression and its causes, treatments and cures is not helpful at all.
My frustration comes from the fact you are giving very bad advice, you are stating as certainties absolute falsehoods and you attitudes are damaging. As yo have no insight there is no way of debating with you.
I wish you would leave the thread before you do any more harm.
You have to understand that.
of course I don't. I have no intention of buying into misery. I don't know how my mind works or anyone else's, and I don't think anyone does. It's at least a workable hypothesis that they do in fact all work much the same, like digestion and the bloodstream.
this is an invitation to victimhood
Not necessarily.
You can feel them if you can learn to cope with them. Denial won't work for everyone. Likewise, what happens when we each feel those emotions is different.
Which goes back to what I said originally - we are all very different. So coming on saying 'x is stupid' is not only counter-productive, it's also inaccurate.
I wish you would leave the thread before you do any more harm.
harm ? Prompting people to think cannot be harmful, certainly no more than encouraging them into victimhood. If I've been wrong, tell me how, otherwise it's just a pointless smokescreen.
you are stating as certainties absolute falsehoods
I'm not sure one can have certainty about anything other than existing. I don't believe myself to be lying and what I'm saying is based on my personal recovery from depression. What falsehoods ?
Denial won't work for everyone.
indeed not, and I'm not suggesting it. When I say I'm happy, I'm, not denying my inherent tendency to gloom, I'm just not allowing to to take hold.
Simon, when I was coping I used to use the same arguments you are using here. It allowed me to feel superior to other people because I was managing on my own and didn't need any drugs and I was in control of my emotions. In fact, I told myself if I ever ended up taking drugs I might as well just cut off my own cock. I didn't feel the need to tell everyone else about how superior I was, particularly people who are struggling to find their own way of coping.
Good luck.
Prompting people to think cannot be harmful
It can! Depending on WHAT you are prompting them to think. History is full of examples of this.
If I've been wrong, tell me how
We're trying really hard to do just that!
Listen - you don't need to change how you think about yourself - that's all fair enough. But really, for the sake of all the rest of us, just modify your language a bit.
Try using a few of these phrases:
"In my experience..."
"Speaking personally..."
"I found that..."
"What worked for me was..."
"I can't speak for anyone else, but...."
And so on. Sometimes it really is that simple!
So coming on saying 'x is stupid' is not only counter-productive, it's also inaccurate.
I still think I am factually right. A drug cannot think and is therefore stupid, and moreover, the mechanisms by which antidepressants work are at best poorly understood and barely better than placebos in many cases - because the way you think matters.
Try using a few of these phrases:
I'm saving time and assuming people can do that for themselves 🙂
Depending on WHAT you are prompting them to think
which I've already said is unknowable ? Think for yourself, don't let anyone else do it for you!
It allowed me to feel superior to other people
it's not about that. A superior method of overcoming depression perhaps. I took drugs for years - merely a holding pattern. I fixed myself in weeks with active CBT methods. I think that's worth shouting about. I know it doesn't work for some, but given its simplicity it's worth trying.
Thats the problem SFB - you think you are right. I know you are not. Its a far to simplistic interpretation you place in order to validate your own faulty thinking.
Because you have no insight you cannot enter debate. You have no understanding of how the drugs work.
I find it interesting that both TJ and BruceWee have used manipulative ploys. TJ attempting to guilt trip me into withdrawing for vaguely hinted at falsehoods and BW suggesting I'm merely showing off. These are cheap rhetorical tricks.
Thats the problem SFB - you think you are right. I know you are not
ah well, faced with papal infallibility, there is no counterargument...
Because you have no insight you cannot enter debate. You have no understanding of how the drugs work.
but (a) you cannot tell how much "insight" I have (if such a thing exists) (b) I suspect no one knows how the drugs work, if they work. They may have theories.
again, it's merely a ploy to assert that I lack some vital McGuffin to allow me to take part in the discussion. I don't know what your insights are and you don't know mine.
Having suffered from depression and anxiety pretty much all my life, so the best part of 50 odd years, I’m quite interested to understand this comment by the ubiquitous sfb
simonfbarnes - Member
I suffered it for 30 odd years and fixed myself in 2 weeks after reading "Feeling Good" by David Burns. Best £5 I ever spent
Personally I’ve recently completed CBT and am still taking the “happy pills” and have honestly never been better in my life. I cannot however claim to be cured/fixed, merely in a more manageable place, In fact I’d go as far to say that I’m not even sure that a cure is possible. So I’d love to hear more about sfb’s road to Damascus moment.
For the record, and out of respect to the OP my issues stem from both parents suffering from deep depression, which in turn lead to parental neglect and what would now be considered as abuse. This really came to a head for me in the 90’s when in short order I lost both parents, my job three times in pretty horrendous circumstances during a 5 year spell, which all then led to alcohol abuse, and a personal meltdown of fairly epic proportions. Like I said I am now much better than at any point in my personal history, so I would advise that sometimes you need to crash and burn to enable a resurrection to take place, and that there is definitely light in that tunnel somewhere if you allow it to seep in.
Thing is I wouldnt bother having an argument with TJ about depression and mental health issues (despite some family experience) because I do not have sufficient technical knowledge to back up the veracity of my comments. On the other hand TJ's more than happy to wade into economic arguments similarly ill equipped...
So maybe TJ should accept SFB's existence on the thread with gritted teeth and argue through it. It's usually what I have to do around you TJ 😉
There is nothing more depressing than reading threads like this. FACT!
because I do not have sufficient technical knowledge to back up the veracity of my comments.
but isn't this too close to home to resort to "technical knowledge" ? Health workers have been doing this for millennia, while attaching leeches and applying whatever fashionable poisons fall to hand, or administering huge electric shocks to the brain "because it works sometimes, we don't know why". Don't allow yourself to be bamboozled.