[Closed] Taking Kids on Holiday During Term Time -- New Rules

Well maybe they just don't get that by taking their kids out of school they are effectively telling them "school work is secondary to our ski trip/summer holiday".

Or may they are not 🙄 Its all a bit more complicated than that. I suspect the children get the message from their parents (I can only speak for a small number of friends I know who have done it) that education is the most important thing in their young lives and that it doesnt start and stop at the school gate.

The worst thing about this is - I've just bloody missed an hours worth of quality lego time on a strike day arguing with some guy I don't know on the internet.

Our perspectives obviously greatly differ. We won't agree - so let's do something more useful. Apparently we are building a ship with a small rescue submarine! I'm off to do something fun now!

You're going to have to do better than French rock pools.

😆

Is this how you see it?

It's how it is. If you don't like it, you don't have to send your child there.

geoffj - Member
jamj1974 - I have a lot of sympathy for your approach, but how do expect the head / teachers to respond to your request/insistence to take them out of school in term time?
At risk of evoking Godwin's Law (again), surely they are only following orders - personal issues with the head aside?

Pretty sure they are Geoff.

Leaving thread for today now! Really this time!

It's how it is. If you don't like it, you don't have to send your child there.

Then Ransos is right you see education through blinkers.

The only thing that's changed is taking the discretionary power out of the headteacher's hands, which frees them up from a lot of whining and wheedling from parents who have already booked their Florida jaunt in term-time. I imagine it causes heads a lot of aggro when they have to say no to a fortnight in June.

My view is that it would be nice to be able to be able to ask for the odd day here and there, and that one or two days a year missed makes sod-all difference, but some people have routinely taken the piss and spoiled it for everyone else.

The agreement that exists between the state and parents is that your kids turn up for school and the state educates them.

I really can't see how that could be simplified any further.

Those selfish idiots on here who remove their kids during term time appear to be the same bitter individuals who whine about having to look after their own kids when teachers go on strike.

My partner is a teacher - we'd love to go skiing. However, we can't afford it these days.
That's the compromise we accepted when she took the job.

Similarly, paying more for your holidays is part of the compromise the whiners made when they decided to have kids.

education is the most important thing in their young lives and that it doesnt start and stop at the school gate.

I would agree with that [b]but[/b] when little darling gets sub par gcse/a level results, putting stuff like "I saw some glaciers/ I bought a baguette/I paddled in a Mediterranean rock pool" on you CV won't really cut it.

I would agree with that but when little darling gets sub par gcse/a level results, putting stuff like "I saw some glaciers/ I bought a baguette/I paddled in a Mediterranean rock pool" on you CV won't really cut it.

Thats right and neither will "we played board games and watched videos" for the last 2 days of term! will it.
Lets compare apples with apples instead of "anything outside of school time" is bad by definition and anything "in school time" is of unquestionable value. The lines are a bit more blurred than that.

Those selfish idiots on here who remove their kids during term time appear to be the same bitter individuals who whine about having to look after their own kids when teachers go on strike.

That seems a bit harsh.

My partner is a teacher - we'd love to go skiing. However, we can't afford it these days.
That's the compromise we accepted when she took the job.

Oh I see.

That seems a bit harsh.

Oh I see.

Oh you see what?
The prices asked during school holidays are a bit daft - we'd prefer to spend the money on something else, instead of expecting special treatment like those who remove their kids during term time.

we'd prefer to spend the money on something else

Well you said you couldn't afford it ? My mistake it just came across as you know "bitter" and "whiney"

It's a compromise we accept.
The prices asked during the holidays just aren't worth it.

If it made us bitter and whiney, she wouldn't have taken the job 🙂

We're happy with the compromise, unlike those of you who feel you're entitled to special treatment.

Blimey, missed quite a party since last looking in!

I can see both sides of this argument however, hurling vitriolic abuse at teachers/heads shows a real lack of understanding as to where the legislation has come from. The rules have been around for some time with Heads having the power to 'police' them. The numbers of kids being removed from schools for holidays was growing and growing to the point where there were 50%+ absence rates in some classes either side of the official school holiday periods. Both this & the previous Government took steps to resolve the problem and we have now reached the stage where it is no longer the school's responsibility to manage it.

Simply put, the school will not have the ability to 'authorise' absences from now on and any formal request for such needs to be applied for to the LA (via the school). The LA receive all attendance data from each school and it is their decision & authority to issue penalties.

Any genuine NEED for absence should still be okay (funerals etc) however anything that is simply a WANT will be declined.

The wider argument about what is and isn't 'education' is irrelevant this is simply a case of rules being adhered to whether they are agreeable to you or not.

Abusing (verbally or otherwise) a Head or Teacher will also likely now end up costing angry parents even more:

Such parents will be prosecuted under Section 547 of the Education Act 1996. If convicted under this section, you are liable to a fine of up to £500

unlike those of you who feel you're entitled to special treatment.

Well I dont actually as I have stated above I dont take my children out during term time. I just dont see it as black and white as many of the teachers above do. My childrens education is the most important thing I just dont like teachers taking the high moral ground, generalising and name calling when they have a limited grasp of the facts.

hurling vitriolic abuse at teachers/heads shows a real lack of understanding as to where the legislation has come from

Mmm.. interesting interpretation of the facts here! Looks to me like the abuse has been coming from the other direction.

I just dont like teachers taking the high moral ground, generalising and name calling when they have a limited grasp of the facts.

Which are these 'facts' that teachers have a limited grasp of?
Sure they're not just matters of opinion?

Well you said you couldn't afford it ? My mistake it just came across as you know "bitter" and "whiney"

Mmm.. interesting interpretation of the facts here! Looks to me like the abuse has been coming from the other direction.

I was aiming at this:

Seriously the first and last time I get a bollocking from a head for my attitude to education or parenting they will leave in no doubt who is having the last word. It won't be the head teacher. There will be a winner and a loser in the frank exchange of views and I will not be losing.

I'm not an 'internet hard man' or keyboard warrior - but I will not be told by a someone whose salary I fund what to do with my child. Seriously they could go and do one

As I have said, it's not their fault.

Why not just leave your kids in school during term time for full educational benefit, then take them to find some rock pools in the holidays. Best of both worlds. Word of warning though - my mum could only afford rock pools in Northumberland, so I failed to get any A's at GCSE.

Like the O.P. Then, he can't afford to go in the school holidays but feels he needs to be treated differently than others instead of sucking it up and having a different (cheaper) holiday.
Poor thing.

Yes but your missing the point. The OP is being characterised as bitter, selfish and whiney when others above are being well bitter and whiney. Cant have it both ways 🙂

Cant have it both ways

But the O.P. Thinks he can 🙄

And you think that's not taking the moral high ground? Wow.

Which are these 'facts' that teachers have a limited grasp of?
Sure they're not just matters of opinion?

So, going to answer the question then?

Yes but your missing the point. The OP is being characterised as bitter, selfish and whiney when others above are being well bitter and whiney. Cant have it both ways

Have several parents with a huge sense of entitlement and the belief that their views are the only valid ones attempted to justify;
a) Why they are deserving of special treatment?
b) Why the rules shouldn't apply to them?
Yes.

Oh, BTW, the rock pools in Westward Ho! are great for the kids 🙂

I want to go to New Zealand to visit my brother who I haven't seen for 8 years, it cost's too much money for me whichever time of year I would go, who can I have a rant at?

Gosh, this one really has run on while I've been working, so here are a few points from my original post that appear to have been lost in the barrage of opinions.

1. This winter was to be the last ski trip before his GCSE courses start.
2. Both us and the school have been very happy with his attendance and achievement for the rest of the year.
3. The school has been quite happy to approve his absence for a week last season and the season before when they had the power to do so.

What I really wanted was to get some indication of how rigidly these rules are now being enforced or maybe some opinions from those in the teaching profession.

The price of a ski holiday is of a similar magnuitude to what most of us here have spent on our bikes. If the same bike was available for two thirds of the price, from somewhere that gave a better experience wouldn't most of us want to investigate the consequences of going for the cheaper option?

The price of a ski holiday is of a similar magnuitude to what most of us here have spent on our bikes. If the same bike was available for two thirds of the price, from somewhere that gave a better experience wouldn't most of us want to investigate the consequences of going for the cheaper option?

You could just steal one? 😀

I just dont see it as black and white as many of the teachers above do.

My argument is that, although a week out of school may not significantly affect a kids (short term)learning, the perception that school is less important than bargain holidays will have an insidious effect on their longer term attitude to academic education and thus exam performance. Shades of grey rather than black and white.

This winter was to be the last ski trip before his GCSE courses start.

School is always important but some parts of it are more important than others.

the perception that school is less important than bargain holidays will have an insidious effect on their longer term attitude to academic education and thus exam performance. Shades of grey rather than black and white.

I made a point around this a bit earlier.

 

This

Which are these 'facts' that teachers have a limited grasp of?
Sure they're not just matters of opinion?

Coming from the person who gave us:

Those selfish idiots on here who remove their kids during term time appear to be the same bitter individuals who whine about having to look after their own kids when teachers go on strike.

😀

You could do worse than speak to the head about this. The school [i]could[/i] authorise the absence, doing so would not necessarily set a precendent, the option to fine parents for unauthorised absences has always been there but in my experience this option has not been excercised in the past. I would assume that it would be implemented with a little more rigour for repeat offenders. Speak to them, but respect their decision, or be willing to stump up if you chose not to.

I do feel your pain, my partner teaches and we have 3 children of school age. To go to Greece say, even for a week, in the summer holidays would end up costing us in excess of £4K. So we 'make do' with France or Spain, driving and camping. What needs addressing here is the greed of the holiday companies, not the fact that the government feels it should impose rules to educate children. Teachers teach, they don't implement government policy.

So you're not going to bother answering then? 🙂

School is always important but some parts of it are more important than others.

And there was me thinking every moment was highly stimulating, rewarding and intellectually worthwhile. 🙂

So you're not going to bother answering then?

I have 😀

Oh, BTW, the rock pools in Westward Ho! are great for the kids

Careful. The OP might notice that there's a town with exclamation marks in Canada (Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!), and decide to go there instead. Term-time, obviously, as the flights are expensive.

Your Quebecois rock pools are so much more cultural than the Cornish ones.

FWIW I am a teacher (albeit in sunny Scotland) and have had to "put up with" travelling at school holidays. We have managed fine by adjusting our budget and putting our holidays together ourselves via various companies online.

I can see the arguements from both sides, but getting petty and aggressive towards teachers and heads will do little to change the rules. And sniping at those who choose to take children out early will not affect those who chose to do this.

You mean Devonshire, surely? 😉

russianbob - the authorisation process is now out of the school's control (effective 1/9/13) - the detail is around page 1 or 2 of this thread.

the perception that school is less important than bargain holidays will have an insidious effect on their longer term attitude to academic education and thus exam performance

Which is a very good point. However, i can see where adopting this holiday policy to the letter might mean that parents feel less responsible for the children in the long run, which is arguably as bad in my opinion.

I blame the school! If the school ski trip wasn't so bloody expensive because we have to subsidise all those poor kids and teachers he could go on that and if you took the time to get your higher level crb or whatever it is you could go too 😉

You mean Devonshire, surely?

Ha! (!).

See, that's what happens when you get taken out of lessons.

What needs addressing here is the greed of the holiday companies,

Might I respectfully suggest some lessons in economics for the reason as to why this happens?

russianbob - the authorisation process is now out of the school's control (effective 1/9/13) - the detail is around page 1 or 2 of this thread.

Is this out of date then???? - https://www.gov.uk/school-attendance-absence/overview

Might I respectfully suggest some lessons in economics for the reason as to why this happens?

I understand [i]why[/i] it happens. Doesn't make it right though.

I understand why it happens. Doesn't make it right though.

As demand rises for a limited supply of goods, so does the price. Unless you want to change the entire economic system to what amounts to communism I can't see how it anything other than right. I can see that those that lose out don't like it, but just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong. It's hardly a new phenonmena either. I'm almose 40 and I can remember my parents making sure we went on holiday at the start of the school holidays as it was cheaper to go then before the English schools went on holiday too and the prices rose.

I know there was a right row amongst the governors at my kids school as ultimately it was down to them to fine parents and they all said they hadn't signed up to do that. The system worked well enough before when the head had discretion.

Education is important but in most cases an odd week off at a non critical time, especially at primary school, is not going to make much difference. Many of the teachers moaning they don't get to go on holiday during term time smacks of sour grapes to be honest.

Many of the teachers moaning they don't get to go on holiday during term time smacks of sour grapes to be honest.

The thread wasn't started by a teacher expecting special treatment - teachers accept the compromise.

the perception that school is less important than bargain holidays will have an insidious effect on their longer term attitude to academic education and thus exam performance

Which is a very good point.

Its not, its a straw man.

just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong

Spot on. I'm 41 and do what I can within my means for my family. Believe me, if I could afford it, we'd be off trucking round Africa for 6 weeks every summer.

To go to Greece say, even for a week, in the summer holidays would end up costing us in excess of £4K.

We went to Croatia and Montenegro this year, in August, four of us, 12 days, cost £2.5k. We had a pool in Montenegro, ate out on 6 nights etc.

I'm not sure we could have gone rock pooling in Northumberland for that.

Sounds ace, whereabouts? Flights and everything?

Its not, its a straw man.

Kind of is isn't it?

Life's too short to read the thread from start to finish....

As a parent, I fully understand the desire to take kids out of school to get a cheaper holiday, especially the last week of primary school terms when they do very little work anyway. The way the "free market" shafts parents is horrendous.

However, I feel the urge to climb on my high horse and point out that we were fully aware of this before we had kids and before they started schools. We kind of just factored it all in to our lifestyle/budget plans......

Taking kids out of school to get the holiday that the [i]parents[/i] want at a price the [i]parents[/i] want to pay is not the solution.

Some concerted organised campaign of boycotting the travel firms to stop them screwing us over would be.

Sounds ace, whereabouts? Flights and everything?

Flights and everything.

Dubrovnik for four nights, then Kotor in the Bay of Kotor for 7.

Flights were £618 for the four of us
Apartment in Dubrovnik was £481 but cost us £321 (divided by 6*4 as two friends stayed with us)
Apartment in Kotor (Dobrota) was £600 (divided by 6*4 as two friends stayed with us)
Meals came to no more than £20 a head so £20 * 4 * 6 = £480
Transfers cost us £200

Total £2219

Food and beer was very cheap to buy from the "supermarkets"

From where is the enforcement being driven? Is it from:

A) Political desire to achieve a few headlines.
B) Head teachers desire to hit a target set for political reasons.
C) Head teachers desire to hit a target for educational reasons.
D) Teachers desire to hit a target set for political reasons.
E) Teachers desire to hit a target set for educational reasons.

I'm not sure that it's easy to comment as a parent on the impact of taking your kid out. That's one instance, if there are numerous instances through the year then you'd have a problem.

As a parallel, my working environment has an enforced summer shutdown, meaning that you're reducing the chance of the business being exposed by holiday requirements. If a large number of people stepped outside those rules, it would impact on everyone. To me it stands to reason that education is more efficient when attendance is maximised. Are schools having to put less in the curriculum to allow for poor attendance? Are teachers having to do more work to make up for poor attendance?

link anywhere to the actual rules? did i read somewhere you can take them for religous reasons. job done then. jedi convention in the alps.

Late to,the party, but I found this disturbing, hilarious, pompous and overblown

Seriously the first and last time I get a bollocking from a head for my attitude to education or parenting they will leave in no doubt who is having the last word. It won't be the head teacher. It won't be the head teacher. There will be a winner and a loser in the frank exchange of views and I will not be losing

Thought I would have a look and see how it was getting on in here...

As as selfish parent one of the things I can't help noticing is how tired our children are even in the years where they have had an additional two-weeks holiday. Considering that private, public and foreign schools often have longer holidays. Are state schools terms too long?

I still believe that taking our children out of school actually does benefit them in the round and would disagree - given our emphasis on the importance of school and education that it suggests to our children that school is unimportant and should be treated with disdain.

Also there is a huge difference between a "frank exchange of views" and aggression or abuse. I don't think aggression or abuse is an appropriate way to treat any professional. Providing criticism is not the same thing at all.

I've also said that special treatment is not appropriate. In my mind the same more flexible treatment should be applied to all.

In fairness to some of my critics though, as on a previous thread I think some of my initial posts were clouded by the issues we have and are continuing to have with a frankly bullying head.

Finally it would be interesting to see how much emphasis those who have criticised out approach, put on education through the year. If by chance it was less than we do in our family - due to your own priorities, constraints, etc... I don't think I would be here criticising you with such vehemence or strength. I would happily not comment on your parenting approach unless you asked me to do so.

russianbob-
Is this out of date then???? - https://www.gov.uk/school-attendance-absence/overview

Yes it is - New regs are. [url= http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/pupilsupport/behaviour/attendance/a00223868/regulations-amendments ]HERE[/url]

Tired?

What rubbish..

I've also said that special treatment is not appropriate. In my mind the same more flexible treatment should be applied to all.

So everyone should be allowed to take their kids out of school whenever they want? Of course not including test weeks, but pretty much any other time?

Tired?
What rubbish..

been in a school recently? Its a valid point to raise give the length of holidays in the private sector.

Yes Kryten. Our children spend the last couple of weeks absolutely wiped out. They put a lot in to learning and you can see the change in them as the term goes on. You can't say its rubbish without seeing our children really.

Late to,the party, but I found this disturbing, hilarious, pompous and overblown

Good for you. I don't start arguments in real life that I can't win. I generally find in real life it's easier to spot the asshats though - I don't generally argue with them face-to face. You only end up on their level. It's harder to judge online though. Considering the positive way I usually conduct myself on here - you would imagine that people could tell when something is very close to the bone for me that I find challenging.

I was hoping for the same kind of understanding I usually show to others on here - I was disappointed. I thought better of people really...

By understanding you mean lots of people siding with your view, but because you didn't get the agreement you were looking for you're disappointed?
Oh well, never mind eh.

Seriously the first and last time I get a bollocking from a head for my attitude to education or parenting they will leave in no doubt who is having the last word. It won't be the head teacher. It won't be the head teacher. There will be a winner and a loser in the frank exchange of views and I will not be losing

On the basis that this is a legal issue ^^

Good for you. I don't start arguments in real life that I can't win.

Might I suggest you don't start the argument in the first place.

been in a school recently? Its a valid point to raise give the length of holidays in the private sector.

Yes, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by the latter.

bigyinn - Member
By understanding you mean lots of people siding with your view, but because you didn't get the agreement you were looking for you're disappointed?
Oh well, never mind eh.

No I didn't. I meant that considering I am usually a fairly mild mannered guy on here - that perhaps if I was unusually forceful in my communication there was probably a reason for it.

I know some parents don't believe in taking their children out of school for holidays but we do. What I don't expect is to be criticised in terms of my parenting for it. Our choices are as valid as any others. As I said there have been other instances in other threads where I would would choose not to parent my children as others do. I don't think it is my place to criticise their parenting as a result. I cannot know enough about their situation and parenting to do so. It appears that doesn't stop some others though!

But as you said - never mind eh...

Nobby
Might I suggest you don't start the argument in the first place.

Yes, you may! I wasn't referring to you as an asshat either... You've been more than reasonable.

J

I don't think anyone is criticising your parenting. I think it is your self- centred and self-interested view which people find difficult.

FWIW, the schools I know don't particularly like the situation but it's out of their hands. Some have tried to help by giving extended holidays but in exchange for a longer school day during term time. The irony is that those that allowed parents to vote/decide ended up with the decision to decline the proposed changes! Others have simply imposed it and in those schools it has been welcomed - I guess that's human nature.

The various private & grammar schools had adopted this practice years ago which is why they have always [i]seemed[/i] to have longer breaks. Our son goes to a local grammar & he has extended (over LA standard) hours 4 days a week yet they also finish early on a Wednesday. This seems to work well and, whilst some parents object to having their children home an hour early one day a week, there seems to be plenty of evidence to show the kids are more attentive & involved at the end of the school week than before it was introduced.

The UK does, I believe, have shorter school days than most EU nations & even Murrkah and the 'three term' academic year seems rather unusual too however, the last time it was proposed to change this it was met with total rejection. Personally, I think 4 terms & a staggered holiday quota would suit modern society better - after all, the current one was put in place where those that were lucky/wealthy enough to have a holiday had to do it in the 'summer' months as they didn't leave the Uk.

Perhaps enforcement of these rules will push parents into demanding change...

CharlieMungus - Member
I don't think anyone is criticising your parenting. I think it is your self- centred and self-interested view which people find difficult.

Funny because several people have explicitly criticised my parenting...

no axe to grind but do remember a great news letter from my sons school:-

point 1) taking your child out of school for even a day can damage their education

point 2) school will be closed for two days next week due to a teachers strike

point 1) taking your child out of school for even a day can damage their education

point 2) school will be closed for two days next week due to a teachers strike

There is no conflict in that, clearly the first refers to taking them out when everyone else is in class.

as I said, not trying to make a point

just made me smile 😀

Jam, this is one of those scenarios where some people will never agree with you. Some rules in life you consider to be less important than others. Other people have different priorities. Just as someone willing to break the speed limit may be criticised for not caring enough about people's safety, so you may be criticised for not caring enough about education. Those criticisms may be incorrect, but they shouldn't be unexpected.

I would also ask you to consider the possibility that your child being off for several weeks may have a negative impact on the other pupils. Equally, half of the class having time off through the year could disadvantage your child.

RichPenny. Agreed. I don't expect everyone to agree with me at all. I think it is about rich to consistently criticise my parenting - when people really don't know anything about it...

Obviously I have considered impacts - but don't really consider them to be significant. Since most parents don't take children out of school through choice the potential for disruption is slim.

J

What are the stats like though? Is it something that's gone from 1% to 20% over a decade?

With the greatest respect, are you actually qualified to determine what the effects might be? I'm certainly not, which is why I was asking questions about what is behind these developments. I thought Nobbys view was very interesting.

Obviously I have considered impacts - but don't really consider them to be significant. Since most parents don't take children out of school through choice the potential for disruption is slim.

It's ot so much the impact that this has on your child that is the issue, for me. The issue is more about the principle of children being taken out of school,as the parents choose. . School is not an individual activity taking you child out of class will have an effect on classmates. But the greater point is that the impact is minimal if only a few people behave like this. The only reason you can do it is because others don't. That's not really very fair