[Closed] Svalbard Incident

Err. I get the impression it was kill or be killed.

I know what I'd do.

"Where is there any sense in killing that Bear?"

Simple really, sad as it maybe, it has learnt that humans are relatively easy prey and considering the size of it's territory,surprisingly common in it's environment. Statistically, many apex predators that have killed humans have a very high likelihood of doing it again.

Statistically, many apex predators that have killed humans have a very high likelihood of doing it again.

So kill them all then??

I'm not an animal/eco/wildlife warrior at all but I do think there is plenty of places on earth where we can just let wildlife get on with itself. I don't go putting my hands in a wasp's nest so I don't get stung...

There isnt even a discussion, the bear was in the process of noshing on a few humans, it was them or us.

jam bo - Member
Err. I get the impression it was kill or be killed.

I know what I'd do.

This ^

yes very sad story for everyone affected

yes its a shame a bear was also killed

but its not like the bear killed the boy then ran off. It also took chunks out of 4 (?) others so I am guessing it was sticking around for the full set.

I know what I'd do.

Agreed.

....we are talking about shitting ones pants and curling up into the foetal position, while awaiting death to rain down from above in the form of polar bear hammer claws?

If you were standing with a gun in your hands while a bear was attacking/eating people and you were wondering about whether there was any sense in killing the bear, I'd like to think that having taken the gun off you and shot the bear, I'd then shoot you.

[IMG] [/IMG]
I like bears as much as the next man, and i'd have felt like shit about it, but i'd have shot the bear.
If I could have stopped myself running.

I cant help but think that this group werent fully prepared for a polar bear attack. Round the clock lookouts, trip wires, flares etc....

The bear wasn't killed after the event, like we'd destroy a dog for fear of it doing it again - it was shot during a frenzied attack, as others have suggested: kill or be killed.

They're beautiful yet terrible predators, and you don't mess about when you're in their habitat, much like tigers, lions, jaguars and many of the other figurehead endangered species. It's a tragedy for all involved, but they knew what they were getting themselves into, which is why they were armed in the first place.

What sickens me isn't the individual stories, but the casual disrespect shown for their environment by the oil companies intent on drilling in the Arctic. That's got a far worse potential outcome for the bears than one death. Imagine the sight of one of those magnificent animals covered in oil.

Imagine the sight of one of those magnificent animals covered in oil.

[img] [/img]

I'm a card carrying vegetarian save-the-whales tree-hugger.

I'd shoot the bear.

It's the law of the jungle, innit?

Apparently they had trip wire-flares, but they didn't work.

I feel bad but I'll fess up (at the risk of indignation) the story has made me chuckle.

I thought it was a bit off for the Beeb to describe the dead lad as an Eaton pupil. Presumably the injured lads were only half-Eaton pupils?

Trying not to s**** 🙂

Comedy gold Tucker 😀

Some friends have been on similar expedition to svalbard (geogrpahy field work) and they were all taught how to use a rifle to kill polar bears that threatened the camp. Part of the initiation stuff before you go out to the northern flows apparently.

So... it was an Eton Mess then?

I'm not speaking for BSES, but I have been on two of their expeditions. To the Yukon as a "Young Explorer" and to Iceland as a leader.

BSES' approach always used to be to engender a true sense of adventure and exploring, including all of the risks and responsibilities that go along with that. As a leader, in 2000, I was concerned, but somewhat pleased that they were still able to balance these in an increasingly "protective" society. The bear attack is an absolute tragedy for the individuals involved, but it would be an even bigger tragedy if organisations like BSES no can no longer take young adults to where the wild places are.....

They are not expeditions, they are adventure holidays labelled as expeditions to make them sound more than they are. While I am sure they are usually very nice and educational to those that have the opportunity, it wouldn't be a tragedy if that opportunity was removed.

:inversesnobbery:

Some friends have been on similar expedition to svalbard

Is it something that all posh people do then? I had no idea.

The bear attack is an absolute tragedy for the individuals involved, but it would be an even bigger tragedy if organisations like BSES no can no longer take rich young adults to where the wild places are.....

FTFY

They are not expeditions, they are adventure holidays labelled as expeditions to make them sound more than they are.

+1

Where is there any sense in killing that Bear? It's not a abnormal Bear its just reacted in its defense, so now we've lost another polar bear aswell.

The most inane comment I've read in ages.

The bear wasn't defending itself, it thought they were dinner.

Would you have given it a cuddle and politely apologised for being there?

The bear wasn't defending itself, it thought they were dinner.

Would you have given it a cuddle and politely apologised for being there?

Yes the rights of rich kids having a lovely holiday should obviously take precedence over an endangered species in it's own habitat, doing what comes naturally (hunting).

I think once the group were there and being attacked clearly shooting it was the sensible option, but it's not as if they needed to be there or were there doing valuable scientific research is it?

...or were there doing valuable scientific research is it?

Funny you should say that - some of my collaborators work up there quite regularly. I suspect they'll be less blase about having to carry a rifle with them when they're out sampling....

A unfortunate incident that could have been avoided by the people not going to Svalbard in the first place.

Why do people go to these places where we are the hunted and then get all upset when someone gets attacked - they were food as far as the Polar bear was concerned.

I agree that once it attacked it needed to be shot to protect the others from almost certain slaughter but it was another needless waste of an animals life that could have been avoided by them not being there in the first place.

A poor episode of events

If I was rich enough to go on an adventure holiday, I'd do it and not feel at all bad about the fact that others aren't.

"Rich" "Kids" are no more or less entitled to do whatever they like with their money than you are. Grow up.

but it would be an even bigger tragedy if organisations like BSES no can no longer take young adults to where the wild places are.....

No it wouldn't don't be daft.

If they want a bit of a thrill, something a bit dangerous and risky they can bore their friends with over dinner for years to come, why not take a party of them into say, I dunno, a council estate in Tottenham?

Sprey to disappoint those above, but the expeditions I went on were pretty expeditionary. It may have changed over the last 10 years, so of course, if you have personal experience to back up your views I'll vlast be convinced that my views are out of date. As a teenager my folks couldn't pay for me to go- the idea is you raise the money through sponsorship. I did.

Yes, there have always been a large number of public school types on BSES, but also plenty of ordinary kids as well. the expedition I was a leader on we had a range from public school cadet force to a NE England council estate lad (whose "enthusiasm" for pranks / trouble was soon turned around to be very loyal and grafting team member). If you want to talk "tokens" we also had 2 "disabled" in our team of 12. One deaf girl and an amputee.

If they want a bit of a thrill, something a bit dangerous and risky they can bore their friends with over dinner for years to come, why not take a party of them into say, I dunno, a council estate in Tottenham?

An excellent idea - they could use their rifles to make Tottenham a better place for its law abiding community.

If they want a bit of a thrill, something a bit dangerous and risky they can bore their friends with over dinner for years to come, why not take a party of them into say, I dunno, a council estate in Tottenham?

Snobbery doesn't look any better when it's inverted.

I wonder if some of the views above would be different if the victims were not public school pupils but a group of poor kids sent on an adventure by a charity?

Why shouldn't people still go on adventures or expeditions from any background?

To address the issue of 'they shouldn't have been there, it's the polar bears habitat' -
Mountain bikers ride in places globally where we might damage the ecology or come into contact with potentially dangerous animals. Should people stop riding those places?

Snobbery doesn't look any better when it's inverted.

Where's the snobbery?

From the BSES website...

[i]BSES is strengthening its commitment to youth development by progressing our Dangoor Next Generation programme that targets the kind of young people that would not normally even consider joining an expedition or have the opportunity to do so. We believe that the unique and powerful development benefits of wilderness expeditions are important for all young people, whatever their background.[/i]

I can't see anything on their site that suggests they only work with young people from uber-priveleged backgrounds, so perhaps some of them may be from Tottenham in the first place.

Quality quote from the father of one of the victims

Patrick’s father, Terry, said his son punched the bear in the face to try to
escape. “The bear got into the tent where Patrick was with two friends and
he just grabbed hold of the other boy and killed him,” he said. “I don’t
really know why he chose the boy — perhaps he was closest.

“If he looked at Patrick he was the chubbiest one, he probably had more meat
on him, bless him.

 

Elfinsafety -
Where's the snobbery?

Too close for you to see it.

To those who suggested that these are holidays packaged as expeditions - you are way off the mark. When I went to Iceland in 2000 I was not only a group leader, I was also "chief scientist". My own group spent several weeks camped in a lava field dessert and produced a topographic map of icesheet retreat markers and outflow channels. The mapping was undertaken using GPS and traditional stadia optical theodolites. It wasn't extending the boundaries of science, but it was extending the boundaries of scientific fieldwork for the teenagers in my team. At least 2 were inspired to get themselves into college doing geology.

Other groups were set up on the icecap studying meteorology and ice melt rates, another group were stream gauging ice sheet mel****er flows and a fourth were also making ice sheet edge maps under the tutelage of a leader from the Ordnance Survey.

Too close for you to see it.

Really Al? Really?

No snobbery at all. People have simply imagined such things, as is usually the case on here.

Sigh.

"So kill them all then??" er........not actually what I was suggesting at all, in anyway whatsoever.

I don't know about snobbery. Certainly a lot of poorly informed / uninformed comments.

I'm probably one of the "chippiest" posters on here. Take it or leave it as far as my comments are concerned. BSES inspired me to do a geology degree, based on the scientific fieldwork aspect, and that is still part of my career today. I came to BSES from a comp, as had the previous people who I knew and inspired me to apply. I went back as a leader because I wanted to pass on some of the professional field science skills I had subsequently acquired during my career.

As for the holiday bit? Well I never thought carrying 80-100 pound packs for several days, including all your food, fuel, camping, survival and science kit as a holiday. More like a military operation perhaps?

I can see the temptation of looking at this as some gap year jaunt for rich kids. The gap year Market is one that BSES has to compete in, but the reality is (was?) that they precede that Market / fashion by about 50-60 years, and offer something quite different

it's only a bear guys, it was killing folk and got shot.

is it liberal pussy day on STW today?

Yes Fred, really.

Really, Al? [i]Really[/i]?

Care to explain why then?

rkk01 - Member
I don't know about snobbery. Certainly a lot of poorly informed / uninformed comments.

I'm probably one of the "chippiest" posters on here. Take it or leave it as far as my comments are concerned. BSES inspired me to do a geology degree, based on the scientific fieldwork aspect, and that is still part of my career today. I came to BSES from a comp, as had the previous people who I knew and inspired me to apply. I went back as a leader because I wanted to pass on some of the professional field science skills I had subsequently acquired during my career.

As for the holiday bit? Well I never thought carrying 80-100 pound packs for several days, including all your food, fuel, camping, survival and science kit as a holiday. More like a military operation perhaps?

I can see the temptation of looking at this as some gap year jaunt for rich kids. The gap year Market is one that BSES has to compete in, but the reality is (was?) that they precede that Market / fashion by about 50-60 years, and offer something quite different

please stop responding to trolls with facts and first hand experiences. Some people just see what fits their view of the world. Chances of changing their mind on an internet forum = 0

Fred you assume those kids would not cope because they come from a different and more posh background.

SImples

Do I? Where did I say anything like that, Al? Where?

You've just added 2 and 2 together and made 39.

Find where I made any reference at all to anyone's background. Go on. Off you go. And don't come back until you've found the evidence to back your statement up with.

Oh go on then what point (if any) were you trying to make?

Well tbh Al I was merely trying to make a humorous reference to events in Tottenham (High St rather than a council estate now I realise), but I don't really think it was in very good taste actually. 😳

IE, you don't need to go all the way to Svalbard to find excitement and danger oh I can't be bothered any more.

whats the difference between a polar bear and prince william?

a polar bear doesnt have to marry kate middleton if it wants to eat some posh ****

i g m c
(and prossibly a ban)

kimbers, probably better to substitute Mike Tyndall for Prince Willy there.

whats the difference between a polar bear and prince william?

A polar bear is quite happy to live in the Frozen North, whereas Prince William prefers warmer climes.

That's not the answer, is it....?

😳

Well, I partially trained some of these kids and all of the others on the BSES / Wild fox Norway trip, so a topic close to home.

I paddled the length of Loch Tay with them after they had camped wild for 2 nights, walked over big Scottish hills with no paths, spent a day being pushed to do all sorts of random team challenges and scary high ropes stuff. I saw a bunch of young people who were way beyond what they though they were capable of physically and mentally. BSES trips are not holidays. They are true wilderness journeys with all the physical and emotional challenges that brings.

Half of the particpants were from really rough places in London, Manchester and Birmingham. For them it was a massive challenge not to be nicking my kit or the minibus at the start of the event. By the end they were telling my staff off for leaving kit around and returning it to the owner.

Some of you need to re-think risk (a main reason I bike/paddle/climb etc) and judging people before you know full facts.

My thoughts are with the families of the people involved.

The bear attack is an absolute tragedy for the individuals involved, but it would be an even bigger tragedy if organisations like BSES no can no longer take young adults to where the wild places are.....

^this.

Tell that to the parents of the dead lad.

It's exciting and character building and all that, but it's not essential, is it? I mean, there are other places which are just as wild but don't have polar bears running about.

oh I can't be bothered any more.

It's exciting and character building and all that, but it's not essential, is it? I mean, there are other places which are just as wild but don't have polar bears running about.

Jees guys, A young adult has lost his life and a family have lost their son. most frigteningly of all is that his peers witnessed all this happen. they were then themselves injured in a freak accident involving a WILD animal.

Give it a rest and have a bit of sympathy for those who loved him.

My initial thought on hearing of this incident was thinking that it sounded like a Gap year gone wrong. However I then wandered off into the internet and discovered a bit more about BSES and how it's not all about providing the rich with a way of off-loading their teenagers for a bit of the summer holidays.

I think it would be a shame if the opportunities this charity provide were to closed down. There may well need to be some more investigation into where it is appropriate for them to go and the support provided but it should carry on.

1 good thing that may happen from the death of this explorer is that the BSES may become more wideknown and possibily increase the awareness of this organistion beyond it's current scope. I would have loved to have known about such a thing many years ago when I was younger.

Hopefully the news coverage will open up the charity to more support and more chances for people from all over to apply.

Better not get in a car tomorrow

Quite easy, as I don't own a car.

You stay wrapped up in a place with apparent risk not real risk - some random illness will get you before living life does.

Yawn. I've bin to Norway several times, and had instruction in handling firearms there. Bin out on my own in areas where bears and wolves are known to mooch about in. How about that then, eh?

All I'm saying is, coon't areas where polar bears live be avoided, y'know, to help avoid tragedies like this, and also the need to have to kill an endangered species if it does attack humans? I mean, you're in his back yard, not your own.

Half of the particpants were from really rough places in London, Manchester and Birmingham. For them it was a massive challenge not to be nicking my kit or the minibus at the start of the event. By the end they were telling my staff off for leaving kit around and returning it to the owner.

Fairy nuff, I stand corrected. I just saw the name Horatio and my inverse snob-knee started jerking wildly.

And the stuff about risk - as Elfin said, it's not that people shouldn't go there because they should be 'wrapped up in cotton wool', it's more about not messing up the habitat of (and killing) endangered species due to non-essential trips.

If they want a bit of a thrill, something a bit dangerous and risky they can bore their friends with over dinner for years to come, why not take a party of them into say, I dunno, a council estate in Tottenham?

I mean, there are other places which are just as wild but don't have polar bears running about.

Much of the world has dangerous animals in the wild though. I'm in Canada at the moment (Banff today, moving onto Jasper tomorrow) and so far this week we've had several trails closed near the hotel 'cause of bear activity plus a little girl was attacked by a cougar (which was then hunted and killed) at one of the places we were at (Kananaskis).

When I went to the Yukon with BSES we had a number of brushes with grizzlies. A young bear had to be trapped in base camp as it was raiding food supplies, a few of my team had to resort to tree climbing when a mother an 2 cubs turned up, and one night we were all bricking it as a bear(s) was pushing our tent around. Next morning there were bear prints all over camp. Fortunately we had done as we had been trained and stashed all our food up a high tree - otherwise the bear would have been in the tent, not outside of it!!

Point is, we were all jealous of the previous expedition that had gone to Svalbard and Greenland, as they were armed. Wandering around in grizzly country did not warrant carrying firearms - regarded as a greater risk to us. Wandering around in polar bear country did warrant firearms, because the polar bears will actively hunt humans.

As Epic Steve says, plenty of places were there are dangerous wild animals- we really are quite sheltered in the UK. BSES are very experienced in Svalbard and Greenland expeditions ( I cite these countries because of the polar bears). From what I understand having spoon to expeditioners, coming across these creatures is very common on these expeds. This one appears unusual in that the normal procedures to scare the bear off don't appear to have worked. Starving bear perhaps? That possibly indicates that there are too many polar bears - ie more than the environment can sustain....

Forgot to add...
...good to see a few more posters weighing in to add ther (positive) thoughts onBSES and expeditions in general!