[Closed] Support for Far RIght?

Liverpool is the 'whitest' big city in the uk, don't think there's massive support for the far right though. Having said that there's probably a lot of latent racism about.

the Guardian report is rather incoherent

I agree. And the article/report appears to be jumping to all sorts of conclusions on the flimsiest of "evidence".

I'm surprised, because I have the utmost respect for Searchlight, an organisation which has for decades engaged in the vital work of keeping tabs on, and exposing, racist and fascist organisations.

I think there is a lot of anti-immigrant feeling about however unpalatable that is, but a lot of people who might want to restrict immigration would stop short of voting for the far right - it's degrees along a continuum.

The challenge is to address the concerns/dispel the perceptions, without fuelling the flames.

Didn't notice any British trying to stop that armed robbery on a jewellery store the other day, only an 'immigrant':

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/856201-jewellery-robbery-hero-just-an-ordinary-man-trying-to-do-the-right-thing

Cheeky gits.......they come over here and apprehend our own armed robbers - who the **** do they think they are 😐

Besides, if they're not UK citizens, then presumably they haven't the authority do a citizen's arrest 💡

Whereas the recent armed robbery foilers in Northampton and Peterborough were not obviously non-white/British.

Your point was?

look at british society today, and i mean look closely.

immigration has gone up alot, unemployment is up alot. it doesn't take a genius to link the two together. The reality might be skills shortages and the like, but the counter argument is why can't the local population be trained to do the job? Look at care/nursing for an extreme example, there is a huge reliance on filipino nurses to provide cover. The argument you here is the wages are too low so people don't want to do the job. So remove the filipinos and wages would have to rise to encourage people to do the work.

Look at factory work, most factories rely heavily on polish labour and have used this as a way of keeping wages down.

Remember this argument is not about whether you want the job or not, it is about image.

Now place yourself in the lower socio economic groups and tell me that immigration is a good thing when you can't get a job, and if you are lucky the wages will have been static for a decade?

immigration has gone up alot, unemployment is up alot. it doesn't take a genius to link the two together.

No, it takes an idiot to do that.

😆

Ernie, i think you are displaying the problem in the UK of a certain sector, why is that statement wrong. Politicians need to confront the attitude and tell people why they are wrong not just dimiss their concerns as *******s. If you don't address the concerns fascism rises. it has in the past and in all probability it will again.

You can laugh at the daily mail but far to many people read it and BELIEVE it!!!

Is that a surprise? I thought this is rather normal when govt become so out of touch with the people and career politicians become celebrities. Way to go let's screw the people while I get a book deal for my memoir. Look at me, look at me, I am shy I am a politician.

What's this deal about giving aid to foreign govts/countries? Are they starving? What's the point of multiplying when they do not have the resources to feed their people?

Now I know, Ernie, you're not going to treat anything by Fraser Nelson (previously political editor of The Scotsman and a business reporter with The Times. In addition to his role as editor of The Spectator, Nelson is also a political columnist for the News of the World) with a great deal of respect. And indeed I cant abide the NoTW, but when it comes to getting inside the stats and making graphs I come a poor second to him 🙂

immigration has gone up a lot, unemployment is up alot. it doesn't take a genius to link the two together.

I think the simplicity of the statement is wrong, but there's some interesting stats around national origin and new jobs take up:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3722968/immigration-facts-and-figures.thtml

What's this deal about giving aids to foreign govts/ countries

Elvis told me that the US government gave em aids,
with monkeys! 😯

Im off out for a walk in the watery sunshine. I expect this thread to be a full on STW-nuclear-war-fest by the time I get back. ....mmm'kay!?

why is that statement wrong.

It's wrong on too many levels and I don't have enough time. The reasons for the current increases in unemployment are a tad more complex than you suggest.

Sure, I won't deny that many people will look for simplistic answers and handy scapegoats, but it doesn't make it right.

And just for the record, I strongly support tight immigration controls and consider the "open door" EU policy to be a disaster for Britain.

khani - Member

Elvis told me that the us government gave em aids, with monkeys!

LOL! That's a good one. Yes, spread the goodwill give them aids. LOL!

p/s: edited ... aid not aids.

women working has gone up a lot, unemployment is up alot. it doesn't take a genius to link the two together

Now place yourself in the lower socio economic groups and tell me that immigration is a good thing when you can't get a job, and if you are lucky the wages will have been static for a decade?

stoner/ernie, i am aware it is a very simplistic statement, but look at the graphs, jobs are going to foreign born workers, not to british born workers.

The reasons are almost irrelevant to the mindset of some sectors of society. But they must be challenged!

What to do about it, now that is the question, we can keep on importing more and more workers, refusing to build new housing, failing to ensure an adequate skills pool and at some point something will have to give, ie fascism. Or we can look where we are, and begin to think about where we want to be and what needs to be done to bring the whole population along. This isn't the middle ages where you can tell people to clean out the pig sties and as long as they are good church goers they will go to heaven whilst their lords enjoy every luxury.

Those graphs posted by Stoner made me actually clench my fists in anger. Not because of the contents 'showing' how Johnny Foreigner and all his foreign mates are coming over here and taking our jobs, but because of the deplorable use of scales in the first and third graphs.

Accurate and truthful they very may well be, but unbiased they are not.

EDIT: Oh crapola, I just fell off my chair in painful hysterics when I looked beyond the pictures and noticed where the graphs came from and read what Stoner said about that twonk's graph-making abilities. Genuine LOL.

I'll say this... without the sterling efforts of (among others) Filipino nurses, healthcare in this country would simply collapse. They are, generally speaking, superbly professional nurses - hardworking and polite.

The irony of [i]Daily Wail[/i] readers moaning about foreigners doing oh-so-icky jobs they would never do themselves never ceases to amaze me. **** 'em, tbh. 😈

noteeth, my So works in healthcare alot of the people she works with are filipino, and yes the system is now over reliant on foreign staff.

Look at it slightly differently, wages are crap, is this what they are or would removing the foreign nurses mean the wages would be better.

It is all well and good for a politician in their islington flat quaffing some cristal to tell everyone that immigration is a good thing. But they never actually say why it is a good thing when people live in crowded slums, worrying about the latest fuel hike.

would removing the foreign nurses mean the wages would be better

The big freeze in nursing wages ain't going to thaw anytime soon.

The further irony, of course, is that the NHS has [i]always[/i] relied upon foreign nurses and medics. There is a pretty healthy global labour market in nursing - if you are an experienced critical care nurse, for example, every developed healthcare system in the world wants you!

Frankly, I'd rather not see the back of the Filipinos I work with. Aptitude in acute care always shines thru, whether you are foreign or not - and there's nothing to stop Brits getting on with it.

There is a pretty healthy global labour market in nursing - if you are an experienced critical care nurse, for example, every developed healthcare system in the world wants you!

I don't see anything "healthy" about poaching fully trained healthcare workers from poor Third World countries. In fact it stinks imo.

mrmo - Member

noteeth, my So works in healthcare alot of the people she works with are filipino, and yes the system is now over reliant on foreign staff.

Then after working 5 years legally, same goes to other industries in UK, they can apply for green card / citizenship. Try doing that in US of A.

I don't see anything "healthy" about poaching fully trained healthcare workers from poor Third World countries

That's a somewhat separate point, Ernie (and in public health terms, one I'd be inclined to agree with). My point was: if you have those skills, the world is wide open.

noteeth - Member

That's a somewhat separate point, Ernie (and in public health terms, one I'd be inclined to agree with). My point was: if you have those skills, the world is wide open.

But why give greencard after working for 5 years? Why not 10?

The reasons for the current increases in unemployment are a tad more complex than you suggest.

yes, you have to factor in that EU nationals have to work for 2 (IIRC)years before they qualify for UK benefits, hence will work or run out of money

now the first wave will soon be able to claim thus pushing up UK unemployments stats further, not to mention all the kids back in the home country already on UK child benefits, tax credits etc, etc

I strongly support tight immigration controls and consider the "open door" EU policy to be a disaster for Britain

really??!

closet daily wail supporter afterall? 😉

define "tight" and also show how you would comply with Human Rights Legislation, remember currently you can't get deported if you have a kid who is in the UK legally 😉

Then after working 5 years legally, same goes to other industries in UK, they can apply for citizenship. Try doing that in US of A.

but do we want to go down the "guest workers" route, where your children can be born in a country and still not be entitled to citizenship.

define "tight" and also show how you would comply with Human Rights Legislation

What's this .............an exam question ?

big_n_daft - Member

really??!

closet daily wail supporter afterall?

define "tight" and also show how you would comply with Human Rights Legislation, remember currently you can't get deported if you have a kid who is in the UK legally

Or if you are here for a year or less and your wife conceived and later gives birth the child is automatically a citizen. Try that in Japan.

[img] [/img]

OK so I'm probably thick - but isn't this graph very misleading?

mrmo - Member

but do we want to go down the "guest workers" route, where your children can be born in a country and still not be entitled to citizenship.

The children should follow the parents even if the children are born abroad. i.e. if non of the parents are UK citizen/permanent resident(s) then why should a short term visitor be granted green card?

OK so I'm probably thick - but isn't this graph very misleading?

reasonably clear what they are saying to me, remember the source for bias reasons, but basically the number of UK born wokers has been falling from 2001, and the number of foreign born workers in the uk has been rising year on year for over a decade. Starting from 1.5million out of 20.5million at the beginning of the decade to 2.8million out of 20.5million in 2009.

What's this .............an exam question ?

no, I'm just trying to understand how you could have a "daily wail" stance on immigration based on the tone/ content of previous posts which usually tend to deride people who hold views similar to those esposed by that paper

or have I got your left wing "but don't vote labour" (IIRC) views wrong?

Yes it is, Grumm, and no you're not thick: it's presented in a style that is intended to immediately provoke a reaction that prevents one from seeing the actual numbers.

"Oh my, dear no no, by all that is holy, look how the foreign red devils are swamping us civilised blues!"

In fact, now that I think about it some more, after my initial laughter, I'm quite disappointed that anyone (mentioning no names...) would perpetuate such tosh by posting it anywhere else (i.e. here).

The children should follow the parents even if the children are born abroad. i.e. if non of the parents are UK citizen/permanent resident(s) then why should a short term visitor be granted green card?

and if the parents have lived and worked in a country for 20+ years? the children are 18+ have no knowledge of any country but the one in which they live?

I am not any immigration, just anti doing something without actually thinking what it means.

Start from the premise that half the population are of below average intelligence, that not everyone can be a chairman of a ftse company, but that everyone deserves the opportunity to a decent standard of living and a decent range of opportunities.

and if the parents have lived and worked in a country for 20+ years? the children are 18+ have no knowledge of any country but the one in which they live?

I am not any immigration, just anti doing something without actually thinking what it means.

so what would a "tight" policy be in this circumstance?

IGMC 😉

Two sides to the story and these must be addressed:

1. Why do companies hire foreign workers? Cheap & efficient?

2. Do the foreign workers force the companies to hire them? Because they are cheap & efficient?

3. Why do companies move their operations overseas? Cheap & efficient?

4. Why not many foreign companies move their operations to the UK? Expensive and inefficient?

5. Why aren't our young ones not interested in hard working? Celebrities influence?

mrmo - Member

and if the parents have lived and worked in a country for 20+ years? the children are 18+ have no knowledge of any country but the one in which they live?

If they have worked & lived here for 20+ years surely common sense dictates that they are of value to the society and in that case they should live here. But 5 years or less ...

I am not any immigration, just anti doing something without actually thinking what it means.

No, being generous is a good thing but being generous without thinking of the wider implication is not.

Start from the premise that half the population are of below average intelligence, that not everyone can be a chairman of a ftse company, but that everyone deserves the opportunity to a decent standard of living and a decent range of opportunities.

Yes, everyone deserve a better living standard but they are already given the opportunity to better their lives for working here. Shouldn't their own govts be responsible for them as well?

You see, a right wing anarchist like myself, fully supports the freedom of movement of people and jobs!

In fact, if you look at the Stats over what happened under Labour, there was a huge rise in "jobs" - and most of them were filled by hard working immigrants, keen to improve themselves, often living in poor conditions to save money to send home. They're not here to sponge off our benefits, they're here to work (however I'd accept that there are a small number of immigrants here for that reason) Now the value of the pound has dropped, and the jobs are disappearing, we'll see many of them return home.

The problem isn't the immigrants, its the [s]lazy shite's who are able to work but prefer to remain on benefits rather than get off their arses and get a job[/s] people stuck in the benefit trap...

Yes, everyone deserve a better living standard but they are already given the opportunity to better their lives for working here. But shouldn't their govt be responsible for them as well?

I would argue that many in the UK don't get that chance, there is alot of who you know, not what you know. There are alot of bright working class kids not given the chance, because they don't know the "rules".

And i am not talking about immigration, but rather what do you do with the 5+million economically inactive in the UK now. How do you provide roll models and opportunities for the brightest, and what do you do with the less bright that means they are useful and can actually benefit from the wealth generated in the UK?

mrmo - Member

I would argue that many in the UK don't get that chance, there is alot of who you know, not what you know. There are alot of bright working class kids not given the chance, because they don't know the "rules".

Yes, that's true but how serious nobody knows.

And i am not talking about immigration, but rather what do you do with the 5+million economically inactive in the UK now. How do you provide roll models and opportunities for the brightest, and what do you do with the less bright that means they are useful and can actually benefit from the wealth generated in the UK?

A serious reprogramming of mindset I am afraid for those who hire and for those who apply for jobs.

big_n_daft - Member

[b]"What's this .............an exam question ? "[/b]

no, I'm just trying to understand how you could have a "daily wail" stance on immigration based on the tone/ content of previous posts which usually tend to deride people who hold views similar to those esposed by that paper

What stance on immigration based on the tone/ content of previous posts ? 😕

Here are a few previous comments I've made on immigration :

ernie_lynch - Member

I have absolutely no issue with East Europeans at all.

I do however, have an issue with TJ talking about "some of the toughest immigration controls in the world" when 1.5 million immigrants entered the UK without any controls whatsoever.

I also have an issue with New Labour cynically exploiting people who are desperate for work, to force wages in the UK down, in pursuit of their Thatcherite agenda of a low wage, low inflation, high labour availability, economy.

And I also have an issue with the door being kept firmly shut on immigrants from the Commonwealth countries.
If the UK is to allow entry to new immigrants, then priority should be given those from Commonwealth countries.
I would rather see a West Indian or Bangladeshi allowed entry into the UK, than a Lithuanian or Bulgarian....any day of the week.

The only exceptions imo, are those fleeing persecution. I have an issue with New Labour's Daily Mail dictated agenda on asylum seekers. But the bottom line is that immigration should be strictly controlled. And fuk the EU......Britain is an independent sovereign nation.

Posted 9 months ago

ernie_lynch - Member

do we really have a problem with immigration?

Yes we do imo. Sadly it's an issue which no political party is prepared to tackle without a racist dimension to it
Posted 1 year ago

ernie_lynch - Member

[b]"Ernie, can you stop talking about 'Labour's open door policy', people will start to believe you".[/b]

No I won't stop talking about 'Labour's open door policy'. It's true, and everybody knows it's true. New Labour freely decided at the time of EU enlargement, to leave the door wide open to allow unrestricted immigration from the new EU member states. There were absolutely no controls and no quotas.

[b]"It's the same tactic that Nick Griffin uses - keep talking b*ll*cks and eventually some people who can't be bothered to think for themselves will start to think it's true."[/b]

I would suggest that pretending something which is patently true, is not true, plays right into the hands of the BNP. I am not scared of talking about immigration, and I am certainly not prepared to sit back and let the issue be hijacked by racists.

ernie_lynch - Member

I don't think most people fear a multicultural society kimbers. On the contrary, most people celebrate it. And quite rightly so. What bothers a lot of people is the thought of an open door policy of uncontrolled immigration. Sadly this government has cynically exploited desperate and poor foreigners as a source of cheap labour for profit hungry companies who couldn't give a toss about Britain or the plight of the ordinary British people (black and white) The BNP is obviously not the answer, because racism and fascism never is.

Posted 1 year ago

Maybe big_n_daft, you believe the bollox you read in the Daily Mail ? Next you'll be accusing me of being "soft on crime".

As Zulu-Eleven points out, it's right-wingers like himself who feel that human beings should be callously moved around freely, as required, like nothing more than plant or materials, to satisfy the needs of Capitalism. People only exist to serve the market - the market does not exist to serve the people. Apparently.

Indeed Ernie, why, I suppose that I even advocated the purchase of cattle trucks to move them in 🙄

Indeed Ernie, why, I suppose that I even advocated the purchase of cattle trucks to move them in

positive luxury why not?
[img] [/img]

it worked before afterall.

Well you wouldn't do that Zulu-Eleven ......it would represent "state intervention". The [i]"invisible hand of the market"[/i] sorts that out.

Mrmo, Ernie - why would one wish to move slaves round the world in boats, when its far, far cheaper and easier to employ slaves in their home country, in [u]state controlled and run factories[/u] on subsistence wages, and move the produce from the factory to the market in the boats?

If people are free to move, they are free to go where their working conditions and wages are best - its the left wing utopia that takes away those freedoms...

health and safety, there are only so many workers you can loose before you need some more, think of mining. You can't take the mine to the slaves, the slaves have to go to the mines.

Good thing that Maggie freed all those slaves then innit 😉

If people are free to move, they are free to go where their working conditions and wages are best

Yes of course ! ....... immigration is designed to push wages and conditions [b]up[/b] !

You really come out with it sometimes don't you mate 😀

No - it levels the playing field

Dont forget, immigration and portability of labour works both ways!

[img] [/img]

Yes of course ! ....... immigration is designed to push wages and conditions up !

You really come out with it sometimes don't you mate

Works if your a filipino nurse, that is something you can't argue.

No - it levels the playing field

as for levelling the playing field
[img] [/img]

i give you the favela, is that really what you meant, because that is the result of levelling, it is almost always down.

Look at the world, look at the food and resources,

Sorry, are you saying that the residents of a Brazilian shantytown are there because they're free to move wherever they want, or because they're [b]not[/b] free to move wherever they want?

I can promise you one thing however, complete freedom of movement and trade, would massively lower the wealth and quality of life of everyone in the "west" overnight - and thats why western governments are so opposed to it - but, like Ernie says, I'm a right wing anarchist!

Dont forget, immigration and portability of labour works both ways!

I had noticed. So for example, the German government thinks to itself "how can we improve the wages and conditions of our building workers ?" and the conclusion they come to is, "we'll allow a lot of cheap immigrants into the country".

You know full well ratty, that right-wingers support the "portability of labour" because it drives down wages and conditions. Not because of some sort of altruistic concern for the plight of poor people in other countries.

no, what i am saying is that portability of labour and goods will inevitably lead to the UK having slums once more. You bring in workers to do jobs because they are cheaper, but where do you house them?

So, mrmo - its OK for them to live in slums, as long as they're in slums abroad, while we continue happily with our bourgeois western lifestyle?

Having just read the opinions of the left, I think immigrants (lovely people) should be worried about the left, not the right.

If only we could have a one-in-one-out policy we could replace all the idle useless gits with motivated types who've moved half-way around the world for opportunity.

Which is why socialism [i]must[/i] be international.

It is only by saying "everyone in that favela is entitled to a substantial return on his or her labour, enabling him to enjoy a standard of living and a dignity that I demand for myself" rather than "send those Mexican bastards back to where they came from and stop them taking my job" that there is any possibility of avoiding a world in which in every country the bulk of people live miserable lives in poverty and squalor while the people they work for pull ever further away.

😀 Now I've heard it all .........Zulu-Eleven wants to solve other countries unemployment problems for them !!!!

LOL !

No it is not OK, but do we want the creation of slums in the UK? current policy on housing allied to immigration policy risks the development of illegal settlements as the only way of providing housing.

But the big problem is resources are finite, economics are based on the idea of infinite growth, so something has to give. The UK is no longer the ultimate global power, it lost its place years ago, the US has had its period and now it too its slipping. No empire lasts forever.

mrmo - Member

noteeth, my So works in healthcare alot of the people she works with are filipino, and yes the system is now over reliant on foreign staff.

Has been for years. I remember a few years back one of the tabloids- possibly the Mail- ran a story on shortages of maternity beds and linked it to immigrants having kids. Course, if you took all the immigrant labour out of the NHS there'd be a far [i]worse[/i] shortage.

Out of curiosity does she work in elderly care?

In fact, now that I think about it some more, after my initial laughter, I'm quite disappointed that anyone (mentioning no names...) would perpetuate such tosh by posting it anywhere else (i.e. here).

well I actually assumed there was no-one in here quite so thick to that they cant read scales on a graph. Turns out I was so very wrong obviously 🙄 And the idea that the Spectator is aimed at knuckle draggers is laughable.

The argument in Nelson's piece, if anyone bothered to actually read it instead of assuming it was all "burn the darkies" stuff, was that Brown's rhetoric about "British jobs for British workers" was a fallacy.

He's said nothing about the nature of the jobs nor the origin of the workers, but the point is about the lack of skills in the UK workforce such that immigration is essential and the limiting effect of the welfare state on achieving full employment.

Out of curiosity does she work in elderly care?

at the moment elderly care, previously disabled adults, both are massively reliant on filipinos.

the thing about the graph scales is that when they start firm an arbitary point chosen by the graph maker they tend to do this to exagerate the statistics.
And really the spectator was having a go at interventionist left wing Brown whatever next 😉
you are correct it is not for dullards

JY - nelson is a statistical economist as well as political journalist. The point he was trying to evidence in the graph was the direct substitution of growth in jobs in the UK with growth in jobs to non-nationals. Anyone with half a wit can determine when a graphical argument is relative to the whole or relative in itself (marginal). Much of the work I do involves choosing the right scale for the context, whether it be arithmetic, 0 origin, on two axes, logarithmic etc. None are meant to deceive (its normal to assume a modicum of intellect in the graph reader. 😉 ) but the right scale can concentrate the mind to the point of the argument.

mrmo - Member

at the moment elderly care, previously disabled adults, both are massively reliant on filipinos.

Thought that might be it, cheers. I've a friend that's a trainee nurse and she's been basically marked out as some sort of lunatic for specialising in geriatric care, nobody else on her course wants to go into it. I can see why tbh.

its normal to assume a modicum of intellect in the graph reader.

He's usually very considered in his points and analysis. He's no hang'em'n'flog'em righty. I just think its a shame he choses to write in the NOTW.

I think the simplicity of the statement is wrong, but there's some interesting stats around national origin and new jobs take up

Oh I do so love graphs where the origin isn't at zero for making statistical points with. Even better to have two curves on the same graph where not only is the origin different, but so is the scale!

Shame you're all never quite so fussy when your graphs are about something you believe in 😉

[img] [/img]

Now, lets look at pretty much the same data presented, quite specifically as you suggest

zero origin, same scale
[img] http://www.woodfortrees.org/graph/hadsst2gl/from:1900/to:2010/plot/esrl-co2 [/img]

(very slightly different data set, HADSST2 global mean rather than GISS version, no antarctic CO2 data)

You can quite clearly see that data presented in the fashion you demand is useless!

top stalking 😉

same scale

Though you also appear to be mistaking me for an AGW zealot.

Now, lets look at pretty much the same data presented, quite specifically as you suggest

zero origin, same scale

But that's not the same scale is it. The units are different

Course its the same scale - SI derived units!

Neither ppm nor ºC is an SI unit!

"British jobs for British workers" was a fallacy.

He's said nothing about the nature of the jobs nor the origin of the workers, but the point is about the lack of skills in the UK workforce such that immigration is essential and the limiting effect of the welfare state on achieving full employment.

British workers cost too much in British industry's eyes, in terms of training, benefits and wages. It's easier to nick trained personnel from abroad or use low skilled labour to drive down wage costs.

Not matter the Political rhetoric over immigrants, it's not going to change anytime soon while industry holds the keys to the castle.

Course its the same scale - SI derived units!

What???

Jesus, how precious can one be 😉

I'm with you on this one Zulu-Eleven ........ all the usual boring people have to get all "technical". I reckon what you did was close enough ........ statistical graphs isn't an exact science ffs. Ignore them mate.