[Closed] Support for Far RIght?

Indeed Ernie, why, I suppose that I even advocated the purchase of cattle trucks to move them in

positive luxury why not?
[img] [/img]

it worked before afterall.

Well you wouldn't do that Zulu-Eleven ......it would represent "state intervention". The [i]"invisible hand of the market"[/i] sorts that out.

Mrmo, Ernie - why would one wish to move slaves round the world in boats, when its far, far cheaper and easier to employ slaves in their home country, in [u]state controlled and run factories[/u] on subsistence wages, and move the produce from the factory to the market in the boats?

If people are free to move, they are free to go where their working conditions and wages are best - its the left wing utopia that takes away those freedoms...

health and safety, there are only so many workers you can loose before you need some more, think of mining. You can't take the mine to the slaves, the slaves have to go to the mines.

Good thing that Maggie freed all those slaves then innit 😉

If people are free to move, they are free to go where their working conditions and wages are best

Yes of course ! ....... immigration is designed to push wages and conditions [b]up[/b] !

You really come out with it sometimes don't you mate 😀

No - it levels the playing field

Dont forget, immigration and portability of labour works both ways!

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Yes of course ! ....... immigration is designed to push wages and conditions up !

You really come out with it sometimes don't you mate

Works if your a filipino nurse, that is something you can't argue.

No - it levels the playing field

as for levelling the playing field
[img] [/img]

i give you the favela, is that really what you meant, because that is the result of levelling, it is almost always down.

Look at the world, look at the food and resources,

Sorry, are you saying that the residents of a Brazilian shantytown are there because they're free to move wherever they want, or because they're [b]not[/b] free to move wherever they want?

I can promise you one thing however, complete freedom of movement and trade, would massively lower the wealth and quality of life of everyone in the "west" overnight - and thats why western governments are so opposed to it - but, like Ernie says, I'm a right wing anarchist!

Dont forget, immigration and portability of labour works both ways!

I had noticed. So for example, the German government thinks to itself "how can we improve the wages and conditions of our building workers ?" and the conclusion they come to is, "we'll allow a lot of cheap immigrants into the country".

You know full well ratty, that right-wingers support the "portability of labour" because it drives down wages and conditions. Not because of some sort of altruistic concern for the plight of poor people in other countries.

no, what i am saying is that portability of labour and goods will inevitably lead to the UK having slums once more. You bring in workers to do jobs because they are cheaper, but where do you house them?

So, mrmo - its OK for them to live in slums, as long as they're in slums abroad, while we continue happily with our bourgeois western lifestyle?

Having just read the opinions of the left, I think immigrants (lovely people) should be worried about the left, not the right.

If only we could have a one-in-one-out policy we could replace all the idle useless gits with motivated types who've moved half-way around the world for opportunity.

Which is why socialism [i]must[/i] be international.

It is only by saying "everyone in that favela is entitled to a substantial return on his or her labour, enabling him to enjoy a standard of living and a dignity that I demand for myself" rather than "send those Mexican bastards back to where they came from and stop them taking my job" that there is any possibility of avoiding a world in which in every country the bulk of people live miserable lives in poverty and squalor while the people they work for pull ever further away.

😀 Now I've heard it all .........Zulu-Eleven wants to solve other countries unemployment problems for them !!!!

LOL !

No it is not OK, but do we want the creation of slums in the UK? current policy on housing allied to immigration policy risks the development of illegal settlements as the only way of providing housing.

But the big problem is resources are finite, economics are based on the idea of infinite growth, so something has to give. The UK is no longer the ultimate global power, it lost its place years ago, the US has had its period and now it too its slipping. No empire lasts forever.

mrmo - Member

noteeth, my So works in healthcare alot of the people she works with are filipino, and yes the system is now over reliant on foreign staff.

Has been for years. I remember a few years back one of the tabloids- possibly the Mail- ran a story on shortages of maternity beds and linked it to immigrants having kids. Course, if you took all the immigrant labour out of the NHS there'd be a far [i]worse[/i] shortage.

Out of curiosity does she work in elderly care?

In fact, now that I think about it some more, after my initial laughter, I'm quite disappointed that anyone (mentioning no names...) would perpetuate such tosh by posting it anywhere else (i.e. here).

well I actually assumed there was no-one in here quite so thick to that they cant read scales on a graph. Turns out I was so very wrong obviously 🙄 And the idea that the Spectator is aimed at knuckle draggers is laughable.

The argument in Nelson's piece, if anyone bothered to actually read it instead of assuming it was all "burn the darkies" stuff, was that Brown's rhetoric about "British jobs for British workers" was a fallacy.

He's said nothing about the nature of the jobs nor the origin of the workers, but the point is about the lack of skills in the UK workforce such that immigration is essential and the limiting effect of the welfare state on achieving full employment.

Out of curiosity does she work in elderly care?

at the moment elderly care, previously disabled adults, both are massively reliant on filipinos.

the thing about the graph scales is that when they start firm an arbitary point chosen by the graph maker they tend to do this to exagerate the statistics.
And really the spectator was having a go at interventionist left wing Brown whatever next 😉
you are correct it is not for dullards

JY - nelson is a statistical economist as well as political journalist. The point he was trying to evidence in the graph was the direct substitution of growth in jobs in the UK with growth in jobs to non-nationals. Anyone with half a wit can determine when a graphical argument is relative to the whole or relative in itself (marginal). Much of the work I do involves choosing the right scale for the context, whether it be arithmetic, 0 origin, on two axes, logarithmic etc. None are meant to deceive (its normal to assume a modicum of intellect in the graph reader. 😉 ) but the right scale can concentrate the mind to the point of the argument.

mrmo - Member

at the moment elderly care, previously disabled adults, both are massively reliant on filipinos.

Thought that might be it, cheers. I've a friend that's a trainee nurse and she's been basically marked out as some sort of lunatic for specialising in geriatric care, nobody else on her course wants to go into it. I can see why tbh.

its normal to assume a modicum of intellect in the graph reader.

He's usually very considered in his points and analysis. He's no hang'em'n'flog'em righty. I just think its a shame he choses to write in the NOTW.

I think the simplicity of the statement is wrong, but there's some interesting stats around national origin and new jobs take up

Oh I do so love graphs where the origin isn't at zero for making statistical points with. Even better to have two curves on the same graph where not only is the origin different, but so is the scale!

Shame you're all never quite so fussy when your graphs are about something you believe in 😉

[img] [/img]

Now, lets look at pretty much the same data presented, quite specifically as you suggest

zero origin, same scale
[img] http://www.woodfortrees.org/graph/hadsst2gl/from:1900/to:2010/plot/esrl-co2 [/img]

(very slightly different data set, HADSST2 global mean rather than GISS version, no antarctic CO2 data)

You can quite clearly see that data presented in the fashion you demand is useless!

top stalking 😉

same scale

Though you also appear to be mistaking me for an AGW zealot.

Now, lets look at pretty much the same data presented, quite specifically as you suggest

zero origin, same scale

But that's not the same scale is it. The units are different

Course its the same scale - SI derived units!

Neither ppm nor ºC is an SI unit!

"British jobs for British workers" was a fallacy.

He's said nothing about the nature of the jobs nor the origin of the workers, but the point is about the lack of skills in the UK workforce such that immigration is essential and the limiting effect of the welfare state on achieving full employment.

British workers cost too much in British industry's eyes, in terms of training, benefits and wages. It's easier to nick trained personnel from abroad or use low skilled labour to drive down wage costs.

Not matter the Political rhetoric over immigrants, it's not going to change anytime soon while industry holds the keys to the castle.

Course its the same scale - SI derived units!

What???

Jesus, how precious can one be 😉

I'm with you on this one Zulu-Eleven ........ all the usual boring people have to get all "technical". I reckon what you did was close enough ........ statistical graphs isn't an exact science ffs. Ignore them mate.

I know Ernie - you go in with a bit of well natured trolling, and people get all upset over the difference between Celsius and Kelvin 😀

well I actually assumed there was no-one in here quite so thick to that they cant read scales on a graph. Turns out I was so very wrong obviously And the idea that the Spectator is aimed at knuckle draggers is laughable. 🙄

How surprising that you start insulting peole's intelligence when you get pulled up for posting deliberately misleading nonsense. 🙄

people are only upset because the graphs are misleading, they'd make more sense if they were normalised

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Nice one! Excellent shortcut for thinking!

shortcut for thinking

.........or also sometimes known as, "can't be arsed"

Yup, but one of the blights on us is that too many people 'can't be arsed' to think. Call it what you like.

LMFAO!

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We have a twofold problem as I see it.

1) Each low paid, low skilled British born worker, when they loose their job stop paying a few thousand in tax each year end up costing many many more times that in benefits. I'd guess it costs the tax payer around £30k a year in lost tax revenue and benefits paid when a British born person gets the push. Once in this situation, it's very difficult to find a job with a worthwhile wage.

2) Slack immigration rules and EU law enables an influx of cheaper more willing labour to fill those jobs that British born unemployed workers can't afford to take. These workers tend to share properties to minimise living costs and send any surplus money back to their families in their country of origin. 1st generation immigrants in Slough went through a phase of coverting outbuildings to house these new people. So council tax receipts are down. The only way the council can monitor who lives in each dwelling is by the amount of rubbish which has to be collected. More school places are required for the offspring, more services allround are needed which presents those people who don't overpopulate their homes with a disproportionate and unfair financial burden. Like local authorities have spare cash to burn!!

Many immigrant workers qualify for UK Child benefit who's offspring don't even live in this country, but money is legitimately being sent out of the UK. This is clearly wrong and a disaster for UK public services! (not to mention us poor council tax payers).

It's all EU loony left socialist ideals that has brought this about and most Britons are angered by such injustices? Are we Brits mugs or what?

So the UK economy looses a lot of discretionary spending. The tax man and the councils get less revenue - everyone suffers!

The issue as I see it is all about people paying their fare share and the UK making employment of British born workers a priority over all others in the interests of the public purse, the interests of British people and preserving the quality of public services.

You don't get nowt for nowt in this world and as the UK is in general decline in the global scheme of things, we need to stop throwing away money on unworthy causes and look after the long term interests of the UK - PERIOD!

We also need to start to bring back production from the Far East and increase our exports. When we have solved the benefits issue, then we should open our doors to unskilled foreign labour

It is clear that many more people are concerned about this matter than a minority of far right wing boneheads! We should reject this taboo around debating immigration fostered by the socialist thought police.
The subkect needs to be discussed openly by people and with impunity, whatever their politics!

PS, I don't read the Mail, or the Guardian, they are comics!

minimum wage?