MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Off to a childhood friend's funeral tomorrow. Left a wife and a 4 and 7 year old behind.
Don't have a lot to say other than: remember that the biggest killer of middle aged men is themselves.
It's a good thing to talk about how you feel, and its not a weakness. X
Sorry to read this.
Still way too much stigma and far too little understanding around mental health problems by too much of the population.
That is genuinely sad, ygh. You are right, though. People need to talk.
I was additionally disturbed to hear of the suicide of that young woman who was training to become an Olympic snowboarder. Devastating for everyone.
iIt all reminds me of a meme making the rounds a while ago that said:
Suicide: It doesn’t end the pain; it only passes it on to someone else.
My sincere condolences on the death of your friend.
Suicide: It doesn’t end the pain; it only amplifies it and passes it on to someone else.
My sincere condolences on the death of your friend.
A slight edit if I may, SR. However, entirely correct.
There are people out who'll listen, even if you don't think they will.
I still struggle to understand the depths of the lows someone has to be going through to actually take their own life, especially when there are children involved.
Absolutely heartbreaking.
Yourguitarhero - sorry to hear of this. My condolences to you and his family. I know only too well what they are going through. If you or them need to talk, please feel free to contact me. I might not be able to help but can possibly offer advice from my perspective.
Talking is vital, as i have understood more and more over the past few years. It doesn't necessarily need to be face to face talk. I <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">don't know how i could get through this without the support of everyone here. This place has been, and still is a sanctuary for me and all the support is astonishing. </span>
There was a documentary that was interesting and from a slightly different point of view.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oZC53wKqjNE
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Sorry to hear such heartbreaking news.
Not just men though. I’ve been there with very dark thoughts myself, including just a few weeks ago so I have some understanding of it. I don’t feel I can really burden a friend by talking about it. People are always sharing these messages on Facebook about being there for those who feel suicidal but I know that in practice some of them would feel very uncomfortable about it. I just walk for hours instead.
Suicide: It doesn’t end the pain; it only amplifies it and passes it on to someone else.
Speaking from my own personal experience this kind of thinking wasn’t helpful to me. I felt this was really trying to make the person who was already at their lowest ebb - feel guilty. As a misplaced sense of guilt and responsibility was part of my depression- this would drive me further down.
Sorry to hear that Vickypea. I postmsone thinfs like that occasionally, but with the insight that I know I will and have listened. Crazily enough, I found talking to others when they needed help - also helped me...
Sincere condolences to his family.
I could write an essay and have deleted everything I’ve written.
If you can’t talk to friends face to face then please use a forum like this to vent and shout.
Most people are genuine and have good advice.
There are very honest and open people here who will genuinely listen and chat if needed.
People may be disgusted that small children were left without a dad, but if it’s in his head all he wants is relief from a life that he can’t cope with.
Yes it does pass on to the children.
My dad shot himself ( my mum and coroner says accidental but who plays with a shotgun)?
It has affected me and I’m somewhat inclined to go the same way. Since I was 14 or so (30 years) I’ve been contemplating every other day.
Its not healthy.
I have a 2 year old and 7 year old that I obviously love very much.
Nobody can explain to me why I still get a train home and stand on the platform wishing I could just jump and have relief.
People try to be so happy It’s nothing to do with children or money or relationships, something in the brain just has that dark side.
It all really should be amazing when children come along, people get married to the love of there lives, promotions, if you are wired in a certain way, there is nothing you can do.
sorry
If anyone wants to talk about anything then I’m here and many of us here have experience.
Mark
Mark +1.
i know that sometimes I can come across as a bit of an opionated, tactless bellend - but I have had my challenges and am always willing to listen if it helps someone. I can’t emphasise the latter enough.
Echo what others have said above, I too have stood on a platform and thought 'two quick steps now and this shit is done with'. I've had help, and I feel a lot safer for it, but it's never far away.
I get completely the impact of others thinking 'how selfish' and the effect that has on the person. Let me offer a perspective to people who think like that.....how selfless then is the person who is going through a world of shit (whether it's real or in their head is immaterial) and yet still keeps going because to give up passes that on to someone else.
Thoughts with YGH and his friend's family today
I didn't know him well but growing up in the same village you know who everyone is. It was a sad day when i heard the news.
I'd hope anyone who needed to talk could rely on me to listen. I know a Samaritan its a great setup and they genuinely are there for you.
Very sorry about the situation, ygh.
I get completely the impact of others thinking ‘how selfish’ and the effect that has on the person. Let me offer a perspective to people who think like that…..how selfless then is the person who is going through a world of shit (whether it’s real or in their head is immaterial) and yet still keeps going because to give up passes that on to someone else.
This x a lot.
Like many I have struggled on for years thinking it must all be my fault and I’m weak and just need to keep plugging away etc etc
finally got organised enough to seek some help and have been diagnosed with PTSD, severe anxiety and moderate depression. Signed up to a course of CBT and I’m thinking about anti-Ds. It’s a small start, but it’s a start.
Good start Curt80
A school friend of mine killed herself; her father was our family GP and he specialised in psychiatry so the shock was double devastating for him. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Was in a bad ace 2-3 years ago, totally get the train platform thing, also sizing up cliffs, multi storey car parks. Within my social circle I know 4-5 families devastated by suicide, and it was the thought of my kids going through what their kids went through that made me get help.
Low dosage meds bought me enough time to get some useful counseling through work - I didn't properly engage with the CBT but it might have been to early in the process. Some lifestyle changes have helped get things on a more even keel. Now in a much better place and getting weaned off the meds.
It's vital that we talk - see a few friends starting to drift down that road when things get tough, I try and offer an ear if they want it.
My first experience of suicide was a school friend's dad. He was a lovely bloke, all laughs and smiles on the surface. His youngest son came home and found him dead in the car. His kids were 12 and 14. It was such a shock because he hid his fear and pain so well.
Second was my ex's best friend, who jumped off a building. He was 21. In his notes, he said that he wasn't particularly unhappy, but that he couldn't imagine life getting any better. Again, it was a complete shock - he was a very thoughtful lad, but usually good humoured and friendly. A week beforehand he'd accepted my invitation to my then-boyfriend's birthday meal that I was organising, which was a week or two later. We scattered his ashes over the Malvern hills. I'll never forget how broken his parents, particularly his dad was. 🙁
If you're ever feeling so low that you're considering ending it, PLEASE talk to someone.
I still struggle to understand the depths of the lows someone has to be going through to actually take their own life, especially when there are children involved.
I imagine they feel trapped, useless, see no way forward, see no hope, think they are being a burden to their family, think they cannot be the parent or partner they want to be and think others deserve.
The one thing I strongly remember is the tale from someone on here about a little boy walking into his work one day after his Dad has taken his own life to pick up his Dads belongings and asking him if he knew his Dad. Brings home the reality of what is left behind.
My dad hung himself when I was six and I became a dark and troubled youth. No councelling, an emotional wreck of a mother and an abusive stepfather all added up to me becoming a ticking time bomb.
I got into every kind of trouble and eventually threw myself off a cliff at age 20.
The thing is, as mentioned above it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Waking up in ICU with my wee teenaged brother at the end of my bed looking emotionally broken was the first step towards recovery.
I'd sought professional help leading up to my suicide attempt but wasn't taken seriously. I'd isolated myself from friends and family because I didn't want to burden them. My problems were too big, celestial, infernal.
If I could have been brave enough, selfish enough, to get support from those close to me, trusting enough to admit my defeat - then maybe someone could have helped me to get treatment.
It took me a decade to turn my life around, to get stable and to learn to feel good and the journey was filled with highs and lows that I couldn't have previously imagined. And that's just it. Ive had the best times of my life since then and experienced true and sustainable joy. When I jumped into the unknown, I had no idea of the glorious freedom that was waiting for me a few years down the line.
Having suicidal tendencies is an indicator of emotional crisis and if you can seek help it's entirely possible to transform your future.
Please don't try to suffer the burden.
Please find the strength to discover a better way, and please don't be afraid to get help with working out the answers.
What Method was used this case?
Huuuuge problem this, thing is, i believe suicidees are ill so opening up just doesn't seem possible to them.
Very sad state of affairs indeed.
Well done all, you are true lovely people always willing to listen/read and offer help from personal experience or from freinds.
Talking and listening does make a difference.
Speaking from my own personal experience this kind of thinking wasn’t helpful to me. I felt this was really trying to make the person who was already at their lowest ebb – feel guilty. As a misplaced sense of guilt and responsibility was part of my depression- this would drive me further down.
+1
Very unhelpful, just makes things worse.
Encountered it way too many times during my 40 years on the planet. Disproportionate number of men. In fact they've all been men.
Most recent, and worst incident by far, was my girlfriend's flatmate killing himself last summer in the flat. She found him as he was dying but couldn't save him. The aftermath of that, and the damage it's done to her, has been absolutely horrific. We still don't know why he did it, and we never will. Only left a poorly scrawled note saying he was sorry 🙁
The thing is, as mentioned above it’s a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Again, speaking from a very personal perspective - I don’t think that depression is temporary for all people. I feel safe enough here that say I have never have felt the same since my breakdown in 2012.
Yes these silly one line statement things are meaningless and unhelpful and definitely not written by people in this situation.
I seem to notice and read a lot more posts on here about suicide, depression, anxiety etc. Its good to read that some people are willing to listen or even help in anyway they can.....
Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I have had problems with anxiety over the last couple of years ago and recently its got worse as I had my first panic attack a couple of weeks ago, a truly awful thing to experience.
I have not had any thoughts about suicide, but I keep reading about suicide being a killer of men. I guess as men don't like to talk and that there is still a lot of stigma associated with mental health.
I think what frightens me is when does all the anxiety & mental health problems end?
I don’t think that depression is temporary for all people.
I would agree wholeheartedly. But I think that with the right support, and determination (desperation in my case) you can find the right approach, find coping mechanisms, learn to prioritise your mental health, embrace change and growth and discover the changes you need to make to increase your well-being.
Suicide is a permanent solution to feeling suicidal. Suicidal feelings don't ever have to be more than temporary.
I wrote a long post earlier but the ADSL glitched and I lost it. Short version:
- blaming someone for the damage they will cause / have caused by taking their own life is not useful. It happens out of despair not anger.
- I wish I'd talked more about my brothers death over the last 30 years
- if you think someone's suffering, talk to them. There's nothing wrong with asking someone if they're thinking of taking their own life or if they need help.
- Network Rail have done some great things in this area - please read their advice / stories
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/communities/safety-in-the-community/suicide-prevention-railway/
One of my staff killed himself a few years ago and I’ve wrestled with how I could have helped, seen the signs etc. To be fair at the time I couldn’t really get it. Fast forward a number of years and I had to admit to myself and then others that I was a mental health mess. It’s a long journey this one but Inhave good and bad days , sometime it’s overwhelming and I do wonder about a way out but that’s as far as that ever got.
The one thing I’ve learned is a bit of compassion, shutting the f up and listening to people and being empathetic to everyone’s challenges.
Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I have had problems with anxiety over the last couple of years ago and recently its got worse as I had my first panic attack a couple of weeks ago, a truly awful thing to experience.
I have not had any thoughts about suicide, but I keep reading about suicide being a killer of men. I guess as men don’t like to talk and that there is still a lot of stigma associated with mental health.
I think what frightens me is when does all the anxiety & mental health problems end?
I had mental health problems arising from my work this time last year, accumulated anxiety and a few other bits. I never considered suicide but I did end up hurting myself. Fortunately seeing a Psycologist and receiving counselling and treatment (EMDR) helped immensely. I had a bit of a blip again a couple of months at but again a couple of sessions helped again and I'm now in a good place. My point being that professional help can produce good results and you should seek it if you haven't already. Best of luck
A good thread - thanks STW
A tough day, but many parts were celebrations and very positive. And sadly brings a community together, but in that, it helped me meet a lot of people I hadn't seen for a long time.
JoshVegas- i'd forgotten you stay in the village... Whereabouts are you?
..as for the suicide, I flirted with being pissed off at him - thinking of the family left behind. But, it's not like he wasn't aware of them.
Tough to see how distraught the wife was and how (kind of) unobliviois the kids are....
A sad day, but edifying in its way.
X
I have had problems with anxiety over the last couple of years ago and recently its got worse as I had my first panic attack a couple of weeks ago, a truly awful thing to experience.
You've identified what happened, which is good. I'd suggest trying to take action to investigate and possibly control them, rather than be in fear of the next one, there's various self help options, through to seeing your doctor who might wish to prescribe you something like a beta blocker which you can take if you are going into a situation where one may be triggered, they work by blocking the physical effects of adrenaline and stopping that runaway train situation.
One of my staff killed himself a few years ago and I’ve wrestled with how I could have helped, seen the signs etc.
Someone that worked for me tried to take their own life a couple of years ago. My company to their credit went way above and beyond to help him through it. He had about 3 months off, got counselling though work and came back strong
my manager on the other hand was an absolute scum bag.
he suggested I get rid of the guy because he “hadn’t delivered full attendance or performance”
🙄😭
JoshVegas- i’d forgotten you stay in the village… Whereabouts are you?
Stayed in the village peebles now though mum and dad are still up the hill though. I imagine there was a fair old turnout for him?
I've a strong feeling I'm just home from the same funeral as you've just described my day to a tee; held in St Athernase Church, Leuchars?
Regardless if not, a thoroughly sad affair for all involved - there's far too many of this happening to blokes our age at the minute.
Suicide is a massively selfish act. Each time I've tried it, genuinely attempted, I haven't thought for a minute about my family or the consequences to them. It's the same when I'm super high. The consequences of my actions when I'm at either end of the bipolar scale really don't matter to me. My family don't matter to me. Me and the super positive and massively negative emotions and thoughts that I am having take over everything. The most dangerous part is when I'm in despair enough to have these devastating urges but I'm not catatonic anymore and I have enough energy to get on with it.
That's something to watch for. If somebody you know has been demonstrative enough to show that they are in a deep depression and then they start to brighten up. That's when bad things happen. One other thing, if they're talking about doing it, they're very unlikely to actually do it.
People with mental health issues and suicidal urges are very devious. Just ask my wife.
**** this is grim..... My mum found he youngest sister having from the balustrade about ten years ago. Neither my mum, any of her other sisters not my two cousins who are left behind have been the same since.
It's ultimately a ****ish thing to do, but I see it as the only time the person has control of their situation - from their perspective at least.
I've been down in the past and have mildly toyed with the idea, but realised that the things making me feel that way are temporary and changeable. If your job is getting you down.... change it. Why spend 40 hours a week plus your free time me doing and worrying about something that ultimately isn't important...!?!?!???
Yesterday I attended the funeral of a friend that committed suicide, leaving a wife and two kids behind.
I still can't believe he's gone, always had a smile on his face.
As was said in the service- don't let the darkness block out the light, let the darkness out to let the light shine through.
I still struggle to understand the depths of the lows someone has to be going through to actually take their own life
Aisling Bea said something brilliant when talking to Adam Buxton. Her dad commited suicide, and she thought he didn't want to die forever, just at that moment.
If you can help someone at that moment, it might last a lifetime.
so sorry for you.
As someone who's been to that edge and looked over, don't think ill of the people that are gone. It's easy to see it as a selfish act and no doubt it is - but instead think this of them; when life is so bad that giving it all up seems like the right or only option..... to carry on, day after day, week after week, not for themselves but for the effect it has / would have on friends and family. That's a very selfless act, and one that some can't manage.
I still have times like it, although they are slowly decreasing. I have an amazing family here on STW and a handful of wonderful people in my life. People still find it awkward to talk to me in person, which I sort of understand as it is a difficult subject to talk about.
I started a post yesterday filled with helpline phone numbers, seems to have disappeared from the front page though.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helplines-for-xmas-if-needed/
Perhaps they see it as the last thing they could do to free their loved ones. I know that’s hard to comprehend, but imagine your totally & utterly trapped by a black cloud that shrouds everything. You get no enjoyment from anything, anything. Anthing & everything is hard. You can’t talk about it because you can’t put it in to words. And who would you tell ? You can’t burden your loved ones, your a grown man FFS. When it gets so bad, there is nothing that offers ang hope, just darkness. Walking away will hurt them. Not walking away will hurt them. Trapped by knowing anything you do will hurt them. But it’s seemingly the only thing you can offer them, to release them from you. It’s despair, a desperate, desperate act that feels like the only thing you have left. Slowly but slowly anything that offers hope is switched off, closed off, shut down. Then there’s this thing, this act. You know it will hurt but you imagine the calmness & release that switching off will bring. This becomes the only thing that offers anything. And it grows, day by bad, minute by minute, it grows. Knowing you have this means of release becomes the only thing you focus on. You start to look at how, when, where. Why just doesn’t come in to it any more.
&
I know he must of been in some kind of torture to do think that was his only solution. I feel most for his family. I couldn't dream of leaving my wife and little girl, but that just reinforces how desperate things must of looked to him.
I don't really want to add anything from my own experience right now. However, I recently came across this video which I thought might be useful for anyone struggling to understand what goes through the mind of someone who kills themselves:
The craziest thing is, if you watch any of his other videos, he seems like the last person in the world who would ever think about killing themselves.
Iain Lee of comedy and I'm a Celebrity . . . fame joins the fabulous humans in the world.
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/dec/20/talkradio-host-iain-lee-suicidal-caller-phone
As he says it's not heroic just a serious bit of empathy and humanity in an increasingly rudderless world.
I started a post yesterday filled with helpline phone numbers, seems to have disappeared from the front page though.
Your wonderful, selfless post has been stickied, friend, first thread on the forum.
Our minds really are complex and weird machines. I can never fathom how somebody that has a wife and kids and a full time job feels the need to do such an act. Speaking from myself whom i've been single by choice for 4 years. On days when I feel low I can't have a chat with the wife or take the kids out somewhere, but it has never crossed or entered my mind to carry out an act to end it all. As i've no neurology experience whatsoever, I can only assume that genes, society and personal experiences may make a person want to carry out the act.
rmacattack- this is not an easy subject. I understand it must be virtually impossible to understand why someone would choose to take their own life, but as someone who has been almost to those depths, I can only imagine that what you describe as “low” isn’t particularly low on the scale of what some people experience.
One of my classmates from school committed suicide when I was 17/18, he'd split up with his girlfriend and I think she told him he wasn't allowed to see his child anymore.
I guess that was the final straw! I'd bumped into him a couple days before and he seemed fine and obviously did a good job of hiding how he was really feeling.
Iain Lee of comedy and I’m a Celebrity . . . fame joins the fabulous humans in the world
There's lots of them on here too. All the people that offer help and advice to others and especially the ones who post about their own personal struggles and feelings, that must take real guts!
I got very depressed in my teens. My GP put me on anti depressants which made me worst. I saw a specialist in Harley Street, and it turned out I had bipolar. He put me on mood stabilizers ( another drug for a different condition which can be used for this is his experience ) and I have been great ever since. Never in a bad mood either. When your depressed it can seem like the end. Sometimes you do not listen to anyone.
Always go and see a GP but a specialist is so much better I found.
I am proof you can come out of it.
I lost a good friend just over 12 months ago. Like me , a copper. Things got on top of him, the job, life, everything. I miss him. His family misses him. He left behind a family too. I suffered with feelings of guilt, could I have read the signs, done more etc...but no one had any clue.
Take people and their problems on a case by case basis - The whole "talk about it" thing can too easily come across as a platitude - People do talk all the time about how they want to end things and then follow through with it - I attended a funeral this year - He'd spoken for years about the darkness he encountered- on the face of it he had an OK life - nice girlfriend and a loving family - He was found hanging in a carpark on a cold damp winter's morning in a London carpark ..
I've had BPD, anxiety & depression for decades. My dad noticed something change when I was 7. I'm 48 now. I've cut ,overdosed ,drank 4 litres of vodka & had my tongue pulled out of my throat by a stranger because I was choking on it. The list goes on. For a lot of us it's not a passing phase. Like someone mentioned. You feel a burden,a waste of space, a hindrance, so empty that you feel like you don't exist. Getting help in the UK is a nightmare. I waited 14 months for 1 appointment. Then I saw a mental health worker for 2 months. I was passed on to another department. They didn't bother sending the letters out about my next appointments & now I've got to wait another 14 weeks to see the Same woman I saw in the first place. People say they care, but they don't make the effort to see you,even when they know you're so messed up you can't leave the house. I was driving around for a couple of months with 200 yards of rope in the car. I planned on putting the rope round a tree, round my neck & driving off at full belt. I did research into decapitation. It takes 4 seconds for the brain to die once the heads off. But I kept thinking of our little un wondering why dad topped himself. He's the only thing keeping me here. Seek help if you can find it. Talk to anyone who'll listen. This time of year is awful for people with mental illness. Debt, loneliness, thinking of dead friends & relatives,even lack of sunlight. Don't let the ignorant get to you. Try not to give up.
Please keep trying to find the help nofx, I know it can't be easy but you'll leave a big hole in a lot of lives.
To echo breadcrumb, nofx, we're here and we're a helpful bunch.
I had a friend kill herself. Or so the papers said. I didnt find out till years after, but for some reason she was in the psychiatric hospital.No doubt someone had convinced her to go there for some 'help',and they doped her up to the eyeballs. I imagine that the drugs hurt her so much(literally), and she thought she'd never be released, so she threw herself under a train.
Either that or another of the inmates decided to do her in
Perhaps I can understand her pain, but that was real for her
What I'd say is that we have feelings, and if we dont 'switch off' they can get strong. If we do switch off, we become unfeeling, brutal, robots, but, if we can stay with our feelings,like a dream,they evolve, and so can change.
One cant nail them down, in a 2 dimensional format, like a painting, cos thats when they die.
So yes its ok to have feelings,but dont try to take any action, cos thats the end of the feeling, thats escaping from your feelings, so you will never know what feelings mean.Every time that feeling will come back, and you will have the same negative response
Hang on until the bubble bursts. Then you will see things differently
Just wanted to thanks those who’ve shared their experiences on this thread. I honestly struggle to understand how someone can get to the point of suicide, but reading this has helped me understand a little more and will make me more aware of friends and colleagues in future. Scares me to think how often I fail to take the time to really listen to how someone is doing, must do better!
I think (after 25ish years and counting of depression) that part of the difficulty in understanding suicide comes from not understanding the sheer detachment depression brings.
From the outside you see someone with a partner, children and job but for them, in their head, these people are far away. In my experience depression causes me to detach from the people around me, i can be with them physically but inside its like there is a wall between us and the lower one gets the more isolated you feel. Then again i have a nice big stack of trust issues, so maybe this is not true in all cases.
to all of those affected keep pestering your gp's and try and see a pyschristist to get better meds. Try to do it though. Being sectioned is no fun at all. If your bad they try and drug you up lots. If your violent they drug you with an injection and leave you on the floor for hours. Other people in there can be scary and it can be a violent place. Some people have difficulty ever getting out if they are really bad, although the NHS does it's best. It was tough at first though as I was in a dark place. They gave me so many meds at first though that I could not stand up. As you progress these meds are then lowered and over time you do tend to get better. Not seeing much daylight for a few months was difficult though.
As I got better though at times I quite enjoyed it there. Free use of a gym, food and new friends. I had 8 hours of leave a day and locked my mtb outside so I could go riding and hung around with pretty girls watching 4 music.
So see your Gp and try and get a physatrist to see you. lnvolve your family and do not things accumumalte otherwise you may finally lose it and get sectioned.
trumpton- do they still do that to people? I thought they had stopped some years ago
One thing I learnt, while doing my scuba diving, rescue diver course.was about all the anxiety I got trying to do everything right underwater, like taking the mask off,controlling y buoyancy, etc.
So watching beginners first time in the water, learning what mistakes they made, allowed my to take a look from another perspective, like a third party, with a detached view. It was then something I could reference,say it wasnt me that was having the problem anymore,so I didnt get caught up in the panic again. I could just watch the thoughts go by,
they still do that. I dred to think of how long I would have spent in their as the meds they gave me got me better but were not ideal. So although I got better I still was not really happy with the meds at the time. Worst of all my physch was not happy with my progress and they are the only ones who can sign you out. I have aspergers and my physc ( physictristc spelling ) did not understand me at all. In the end he did me a massive favour and refered me to a specialist place for pople with autism. These guys were brilliant and carefully matched ( new ) meds to me and after a few attempts found the perfect one for me. It's common for people with autism to get sectioned and be in there for years on end, sometimes never coming out. There's been a few campains on tv for this to stop. It's not so bad if you just have aspergers but even then I was not understood and did not react properly to the meds, so the physc just saw me as not progressing and wouldn't let me out.