Yeah it’s a point which you have made more than once Bruce, I think everyone, including me, gets it.
I'm not sure if you do get it. You know how people keep telling you you're trolling? They keep telling you that because that's what you're doing.
Snarky comment then run away = Trolling.
However I am not prepared to debate the issue of whether the UK should remain in the EU, which was always very difficult to debate sensibly anyhow – if you don’t agree you are a looney/stupid/racist, and is no longer a relevant question, or the issue of rejoining which is clearly not going to happen anytime soon.
That's one thing you won't discuss. There are many others.
Basically, as soon as you get asked a difficult question the 'I don't discuss Brexit' excuse comes out.
If that makes you “sick” I can only offer my apologies, it’s just the way it is, I won’t be changing what I post. You might consider lightening up though and not getting too upset about what other people post? It works quite well for me – if I disagree I might challenge them but I tend not to create a song and dance concerning how upset they have made me feel.
And now you are trying to reframe our exchange so that your original objective (to troll and get a reaction) has been met.
You believe what you have to.
My daughters were very nearly denied entry into the UK last year. They were 15 and 17 at the time, travelling with my wife and I in the same car back from the continent. They were both born in the UK and have lived there all their lives, gone to school here, have NI numbers and NHS numbers.
We had a similar conversation coming back from France, my wife who is French handed over the passports and handed over the girls French passports by mistake, both are dual citizens. The passport control person then started to question my wife's right to remain and asked to her certificate. Which didn't go down very well with my Wife, this sort of thing just enrages her. She has been in the UK for 30 odd years, all they need to do is check her NI & NHS numbers on the system, but no they have to make a point. Just really makes one feel welcome.
you’re trolling...
Snarky comment then run away = Trolling.
to troll and get a reaction
Well if I'm trolling why do keep engaging ffs - isn't the normal advice to ignore trolls? Other than to personally criticise me I don't see the point.
Edit: In all the years that I have been on stw I don't recall ever calling anyone a troll. There are a very small number of people on here who what they post has a tendency to annoy me slightly, what I tend to do is to try to avoid reading their posts. I don't think that the appropriate reaction is to accuse them of being trolls.
Which one are you Ernie?
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/3176/2920571243_e2acc8ddb9_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/3176/2920571243_e2acc8ddb9_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/5s5G5B ]Trolls[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr
🙂
Probably the biggest one on the Left I guess.
Probably the biggest one on the Left I guess.
Applauds
LOLs
Well if I’m trolling why do keep engaging ffs – isn’t the normal advice to ignore trolls? Other than to personally criticise me I don’t see the point.
Edit: In all the years that I have been on stw I don’t recall ever calling anyone a troll. There are a very small number of people on here who what they post has a tendency to annoy me slightly, what I tend to do is to try to avoid reading their posts. I don’t think that the appropriate reaction is to accuse them of being trolls.
Because I've decided you're my special project.
Trolling is not just annoying people. It's contributing nothing to the discussion while trying to wind people up. That's what you seem to be trying to do when people are discussing Brexit.
So, every time you make a snarky Brexit comment and then do your usual, 'I don't talk about Brexit' I'm going to point it out to you since you seem to be oblivious (giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not intentionally trolling and just think you've come up with a really really clever way of discussing Brexit).
Like I said, if you don't want to discuss Brexit don't start talking about Brexit and everyone can go about their day.
Because I’ve decided you’re my special project.
Thanks, I didn't realise that you cared that much. Makes me feel special.
I like to think I’ve a pretty good grasp of British history, and honestly I’d have failed so hard they’d have put me on a plane to Rwanda the same day. Its a ridiculous thing.
At the risk of being called a troll and accused of point scoring, because it is likely to get a negative reaction from someone (only criticise the Tories not Labour, unless it is to do with Brexit) I think it is important to remember that the whole daft American inspired idea of a citizens test came from a Blairite Home Secretary. It was a Labour government that introduced the citizen's test through an act of parliament - Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002
The reason it is important imo is because the whole problem needs to be understood. As I have said previously imo the single most racist aspect of the UK is its immigration and nationality legislation. And that applies both under Tory and Labour governments. So it is not enough to attack Tory governments and yet remain silent whenever a Labour government comes to power.
I have no problem with immigration controls, imo they are clearly necessary. What I have a problem with however is when they are clearly racist. David Blunkett as Home Secretary backed the citizen's test imo to pander to the tabloids and because the right-wing of the Labour Party wanted to appear tough on immigration - give immigrants another hurdle to jump over.
The citizen's test, which btw isn't only for those wishing to become naturalised British citizens but is also necessary for anyone seeking indefinite leave to remain in the UK (although thankfully not EU nationals under Settled Status) is daft on several levels imo.
Firstly it simply isn't needed - if UK born citizens don't need to know the answers to the questions to be good citizens why would foreign born ones need to?
Secondly it is strongly biased towards foreigners of European heritage, you can decide how intended that is. Apparently, for example, the pass rate among Australians is much higher than among Bangladeshis.
Secondly the questions are bollox, who gives a **** what king was married to who 500 years ago? They could at least have questions that might actually be useful to know the answers to, eg, who do you pay council tax to? What is an MOT certificate? How do you access primary care? What number do you phone in an emergency? And so on.
And thirdly there is no guarantee that the private firm that is responsible for the citizen's test, and which presumably makes large amounts of money out of the scheme, actually knows the correct answers themselves:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/apr/29/immigration.immigrationpolicy
I don't know if those facts were set by a foreigner but the one quoting Winston Churchill certainly looks as if it might have been.
And in one case they have impressively managed to get their legal, historical, and geographical facts, all mixed up and wrong in just one statement:
Claim: Great Britain includes Northern Ireland
Fact: The United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland. Great Britain is made up of England, Wales and Scotland.
Those questions were set when we had a Labour government btw.
Edit : To be fair I'm not sure if the guide "Life in the United Kingdom: a Journey to Citizenship," was actually written by the private firm or the government.
Bloody Labour - grr!
Bloody communists!!!
… oh…
You're getting good at this pondo.
Are you a Labour Party member?
yet remain silent whenever a Labour government comes to power
We didn’t. And they’re not.
Can we get back to the person the ERG have made the current Home Secretary, and how hostile she can get away with making the UK…
At the risk of being called a troll and accused of point scoring, because it is likely to get a negative reaction from someone (only criticise the Tories not Labour, unless it is to do with Brexit)
Assuming that's aimed at me, when have I ever given any indication I think Labour are any less racist than the Tories. As you yourself said, they often get cover to be the first to introduce really egregious policies by virtue of not being the Tories.
The problem's not the Tories or Labour. It's the racist voters and, to a lesser extent, the FPTP system that means both parties have to chase the racist vote to get elected.
Labour governments going way back before Tony Blair have had a pretty dodgy attitude towards the rights of "foreign" born non-European nationals.
Just look at the shabby treatment of the Chagossians as an example of previous Labour attitude to dark-skinned Brits.
Very little fuss is made concerning Labour governments compared to Tory governments in that respect.
Tony Blair's record in that area was not good, if you are not aware it makes my point.
FFS Bruce. Ernie may be many things but troll is not one of them. A troll is someone who makes negative arguments or deliberately inflammatory statements to get a reaction.
You are getting as bad as me for pointless argument and getting wound up by minutiae. Is that really an acolade you want? the TJ prize for being an argumentative sod? 🙂
Just look at the shabby treatment of the Chagossians as an example of previous Labour attitude to dark-skinned Brits.
Now that one I have made a fuss about on here. compare their treatment to the Falkland islanders!
Very little fuss is made concerning Labour governments compared to Tory governments in that respect.
Tony Blair’s record in that area was not good, if you are not aware it makes my point.
Again, I'm agreeing with you. And again, I've never had any illusions about Labour. Labour and the Tories have been two cheeks of the same arse since I've been old enough to vote. And long before that.
FFS Bruce. Ernie may be many things but troll is not one of them. A troll is someone who makes negative arguments or deliberately inflammatory statements to get a reaction.
That's a very page 7 attitude TJ. Do try to keep up.
Just look at the shabby treatment of the Chagossians as an example of previous Labour attitude to dark-skinned Brits.
Being dual heritage - English and Mauritian, also passionate about human rights and fairness. This cause is close to my heart.
#@%=@# disgraceful that the home office is being used as her personal defense in this
Braverman says that she won't apologise for using words like "invasion" to discribe immigrants seeking to enter the UK.
If she can talk about an invasion of immigrants whilst speaking from the floor of the House of Commons would the Speaker have no problem if an MP spoke of the time to Braverman's parents invaded the UK?
Would it be classed as acceptable parliamentary language?
Braverman has talked about her parents not being born in the UK, as she did in the clip mentioned above, I wonder if she has ever described it as part of an invasion?
Imagine if she had said:
‘You are right, language is important, as is learning from the lessons of our treatment of previous displaced people, I will think carefully before I use words like that in the future, thank you’
It’s not difficult is it, and she is meant to be a politician, it’s her job to be mindful about what she says.
I’m glad she’s rubbish at being a politician, as it shows her true colours, unless of course she is being careful, and is thinking much worse.
Braverman has talked about her parents not being born in the UK, as she did in the clip mentioned above, I wonder if she has ever described it as part of an invasion?
No, because as we know it was different in her case. Although not different in Windrush case. Each period needs to be considered as an invasion or a mass migration and only the racist immigrants can decide which.
Jkomo, Braverman is merely maintaining a long Tory tradition of describing foreigners in derogatory terms, the only thing that is notable is that she is the child of immigrants herself.
Going back to even before she became PM this is what Margaret Thatcher said:
"people are really rather afraid that this country might be rather swamped by people with a different culture"
Much more recently David Cameron, a Tory who strangely rarely seems to get criticised on stw, has used some pretty offensive language in reference to immigrants, including describing them as a "swarm". Apparently according to Cameron immigrants share similarities with locusts.
And these incendiary words do matter :
The irony is that Cameron was trying to warn people that if we voted for Brexit we'd be at risk of 10s of 1000s of illegal immigrants crossing the Channel that we'd be forced to accommodate....
Dehumanising immigrants & scapegoating them for their own failures is populism 101, Braverman knows exactly what she's doing
To be honest when someone who was actively persecuted by the Nazis tells you, very eloquently, that your choice of language and actions is making you a bit Nazi-ish and you ignore them, you have a problem.
Only if you don't want to act like a Nazi, which presumably she knows she is?
I presume the Home Office staff who then went on the offensive to defend her were ‘merely following orders’?
I’m sure a psychologist could have a field day with these children of immigrants (like Braverman, Patel, Zahawi and the PM himself) who appear to have a venomous hatred of immigrants and seem to revel in making their lives as miserable as possible
Is good that she makes no attempt to hide her true vile self.
Is good that she makes no attempt to hide her true vile self.
Less good is the clapping from the audience at the end of the full clip.
I’m sure a psychologist could have a field day with these children of immigrants (like Braverman, Patel, Zahawi and the PM himself) who appear to have a venomous hatred of immigrants and seem to revel in making their lives as miserable as possible
Maybe it is a bit more complicated than "immigrants"; to someone of Asian ancestry many immigrants are also "foreigners" whichever way you look at it.
I don't think that government ministers with South Asian heritage and culture feel venomous hatred towards immigrants, I think they are just ambitious Tories.
If you are a dark skinned member of the Conservative Party you probably need to prove yourself more than most. You are already at a disadvantage just for not being a white and Christian.
With Zahawi, Braverman, and Sunak, you have a Muslim, a Buddhist, and a Hindu, I don't know how well that goes down in local Conservative Associations but I can imagine a certain amount of unease among some. Especially as these are very senior ministers that we are talking about - not just local councillors.
.... but their twuntery is a personal choice to help them climb the greasy pole.
You can always buy your way into Britain…
https://twitter.com/shoaibmkhan/status/1580636927426199552?s=21
…but suspended for Russian oligarchs.
Another dead cat or just so incompetent she was accidentally honest?
Oh she is properly incompetent all right
You can always buy your way into Britain…
With the added bonus once thats done then they could legally donate to the tories.
Ms Braverman said she was visiting Rwanda this weekend to "reinforce the government's commitment to the partnership as part of our plan to stop the boats and discuss plans to operationalise our agreement shortly".
In others words the trip is a publicity stunt.
Any need to "discuss plans to operationalise our agreement shortly" could have been satisfied by picking up a telephone.
This will give the Daily Mail, Telegraph, and Express, the opportunity to plaster photos across their pages giving publicity to the government's hugely expensive and unworkable scheme.
The Guardian and other critical media are not allowed on the trip
Well obviously not..... this publicity stunt is suppose to bring good publicity, not bad publicity!
Anyone work for Air traffic control or knows how to crack their system?, it seems to me that the easiest way to put this Braverman/right wing press thing to bed would be to direct the flight over Ukrainian airspace. - kill two birds with one stone so to speak.
She may as well have gone to ****ing Disneyland for all the likelihood of an actual workable policy emerging from it.
They're not even pretending to be a serious government any more. Its just government by tabloid headline. I'd like to know how much this succession of stunts is costing us all? This Rwanda farce must be into the billions by now with all the legal fees etc and they know as well as we do that the best they can hope for as an outcome is a token couple of flights of brown people taking a heavily subsidised trip out to Africa.
Its pure culture war bollocks as shown by the small list of 'guests' Cruella took with her. I expect we'll be seeing a lot more of this now. With anyone who refuses to tow the government line being shut out. It tells you everything that the BBC is verbotten but GeeBeebies are along for the ride
I’m sure a psychologist could have a field day with these children of immigrants (like Braverman, Patel, Zahawi and the PM himself) who appear to have a venomous hatred of immigrants
Zahawi is an immigrant. Johnson is also a (repeat) immigrant.
Sunak was in the process of becoming an immigrant… in the USA.
