I take full responsibility for buggering up things by posting something which apparently not everyone can agree on.
As has been pointed out several times by users and mods on various threads, it's not the disagreeing that is the issue, it's the manner of the disagreeing that spoils it for the rest of us
What are you talking about? No mod has told me that they don't like the manner that I disagree. Where have you got that from?
Care to comment about Suella Braverman decision concerning justice for the Windrush Generation? Have you read the Guardian linked on the previous page?
Yes racism is an emotional issue for most people, and I have varying degree of tolerance towards it. My tolerance towards racism based on unthinking stereotyping is fairly high, often it's unintended and caused by thoughtlessness. My tolerance for racism when it's combined with hypocrisy is somewhat lower.
Would the leader of the Labour Party be more vocal if the issue here affected Jewish people? Based on his recent behaviour I think yes.
Call me an idealist but I reject all racism. Including against Jews, Asians, and people of African heritage. As my post on the previous page clearly point out.
Just to recap: "sources told the guardian" a couple of days ago that this govt is going to ditch some of its windrush inquiry response.
And some folks aren't sufficiently outraged, including the labour front bench?
I predict that when (and if, but let's face it when) this actually happens, rather than being something sources say will happen, they will be very outraged. And this will be a bigger story than a guardian "sources say".
Everyone happy with that?
Ernie
Why do you say there is no racism against EU white folk?
Its clear that a large part of the brexit vote was exactly this. Or are you confining that to government policy? Brexit was largely a racist vote as all the research makes clear
Otherwise I totally agree with you
Edit: This six page thread is dedicated to Suella Braverman. I thought her recent decision concerning the Windrush Generation might be of interest. Apparently not particularly – my disappointment with Labour’s front bench over the issue gets more criticism than Braverman does.
No, it's very interesting.
What's not so interesting is you using it as a point scoring exercise against people who point out that the Brexit vote was based on racism.
Believe it or not, you are the one who decided to bring Brexit into this discussion. It would have been just as easy for you to not mention Brexit at all but you couldn't help yourself. Just to remind you what you said:
Or is all the best anger and outrage reserved for brexit and FOM?
For someone who doesn't like to talk about Brexit you do seem to love introducing the topic into discussions.
I am perfectly happy to talk about some people's obsession with brexit, it's on every bleedin political thread.
What I am reluctant to discuss is the pros and cons of question which was settled more than 6 years ago. Even back then it was impossible to have a sensible discussion about the subject - if you didn't support the EU it wasn't for any legitimate reasons but because you were stupid, racist, or a looney, or a combination of all three.
You might not agree with my opinion but I believe that there is a high degree of hypocrisy concerning racism and criticism of the Labour leadership. You won't silence me.
Starmer is denounced in extraordinarily strong terms for alledgedly pandering to racists as a result of accepting the fact that the UK is no longer an EU member state.
But I get castigated for expressing my disappointment in Labour's front bench for not being vocal enough in denouncing the truly appalling injustices meted out to black people of the Windrush Generation. Injustices so obviously unacceptable that previous Tory governments have been shamed into promising to rectify them.
I call that hypocrisy.
I am a white foreign born EU national I have never personally experienced serious racism in the UK. As the youngest I am the only one out of me and my siblings not to speak English with a foreign accent. My father spoke English with an extremely strong accent, as did my grandmother. And yet, unsurprisingly, as a white family in London we never experienced any consequential racism.
But some people want to focus on alledged racism against white people getting into ridiculous rants about it, whilst not having half the passion about racism against black UK residents.
There have been people who arrived to the UK as toddlers from the Caribbean 6 or 7 decades ago, and have spent a lifetime working, who have been denied NHS treatment because they couldn't prove that they had a legal right to be in the UK.
I haven't heard of a single similar case involving a white European.
IMO the single most racist aspect of the UK is its immigration and nationality laws. In or out of the EU does not make one iota difference to that fact. IMO
I am perfectly happy to talk about people’s obsession with brexit, it’s on every bleedin political thread.
It's on this thread because you brought it up. At least have the decency to wait for someone else to bring it up before you start complaining people have brought it up.
But I get castigated for expressing my disappointment in Labour’s front bench for not being vocal enough in denouncing the truly appalling injustices meted out to black people of the Windrush Generation.
Nope, you got castigated for using the this issue to try to score points against people who say (on threads that aren't this one) that Brexit was motivated by racism.
Everyone else agrees with you on everything else you are saying. You are not a special and unique snowflake when it comes to our feelings about this issue.
I haven’t heard of a single similar case involving a white European.
I have.
I also know of white europeans on the end of racist attacks
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-56814292
You are lucky in living in london where racism against immigrants especially white ones is rare Your experience is not universal
But I get castigated for expressing my disappointment in Labour’s front bench for not being vocal enough in denouncing the truly appalling injustices meted out to black people of the Windrush Generation.
Not seen any castigation of you and I agree with you, its just a reflection of the modern labour party being scared of the racists that they won't condemn it
Abbott has made a statement today on it
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/09/tories-never-sorry-windrush-suella-braverman
Shadow Home Secretary last Friday
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1611438125225545765?s=20&t=yzmrpeORHv4Q31C-dtj6aA
Shadow Foreign Secretary on Saturday
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1611673024633376768?s=20&t=WQcpztqdN7vUlqTl4nhUlw
using the this issue to try to score points
I didn't post the Guardian link to "score points". I posted it because it was, and is, relevant to the Suella Braverman thread.
Far from expecting an argument I expected that their would be a fairly unanimous opinion concerning how shameful Braverman's decision was. There was no reference to brexit in my original post.
The response was somewhat disappointing. TJ agreed that it was appalling but, hey, what can you do, Tories are racists, and other person expressed disapproval. But the very first post was an attempt to ridicule me.
Contrast that with the anger directed at Starmer over brexit and accusations of him pandering to racists, it was obvious that I would make the link between the two. Not to "score points" but to expose the obvious inconsistencies.
It really is as if brexit is the only issue that matters. Don't criticise the Labour front bench and their weak stand against racism unless the issue is brexit.
I have
There is absolutely no comparison. I said:
There have been people who arrived to the UK as toddlers from the Caribbean 6 or 7 decades ago, and have spent a lifetime working, who have been denied NHS treatment because they couldn’t prove that they had a legal right to be in the UK.
Your link isn't even vaguely comparable.**
And I am aware of Lammy's comments. I didn't say that there had been no response from the Labour front bench, just that I was disappointed at the level of response. This latest development has been barely mentioned in the media, most people will be unaware of it, despite the fact that the Windrush scandal is a huge story that most people are aware of.
Firm promises and commitments are being quietly being shelved with the minimum of fuss.
And btw the central point of my original post was to highlight Braverman's appalling decision, my disappointment in Labour's lacklustre response was just a observation. It turns out that I might feel stronger about the issue than some people.
** A better comparison would be me. I came to the UK decades ago as a six year old and have worked here for a lifetime. There is absolutely zero chance that I will be denied NHS treatment when I go for my MRI scan on Friday. I'm not black and I didn't come from the Caribbean.
This latest development has been barely mentioned in the media
Depressing, isn’t it.
First ones I found Ernie. anti east europen racism is there. I can find plenty more
At the moment all we know about Bravermans things are leaked proposals. When its actually published will we see more response?
I guess my reaction was because I am not surprised that tories are being racist. I couldn't loathe the tory party any more and you in the past have told me off for calling the tory party vile scum 🙂
Your point is basically valid tho.
the pros and cons of question which was settled more than 6 years ago
It wasn't though, was it?
The vote was about that, but as pointed out,it only actually happened two years ago and it's still not fully done and can't be unless Norn Irn is absorbed into Republic Of. For just one. That's before you get into making strikes illegal and all that nonsense
Or we could shake off the madness and grovel to Ursula von Leyen to please let us back in the club.
First ones I found Ernie. anti east europen racism is there.
I'm sorry TJ that's nonsense. The woman wasn't even denied NHS treatment. She said that she would ignore the letter.
I am talking about people who came to the UK as toddlers from the Caribbean and who have actually been denied NHS treatment for cancer.
I don't have British nationality but I won't be denied NHS treatment when I go to the hospital on Friday because I have have the right under the EU national settled status scheme. Even if I had come to the UK only five years ago.
That option doesn't exist for those who came as toddlers from the Caribbean with their parents and have lived practically their entire lives for the last 6 or 7 decades in the UK.
Sure their long dead parents might have screwed up and not realised what was legally necessary, assuming that there would never be a problem for their child. But deny them NHS treatment or even deport them after a lifetime of paying UK taxes? FFS
Find me white Europeans that have been treated in that manner.
It's called the Windrush scandal for a reason. HMT Empire Windrush sailed between the Caribbean and the UK. There is no European equivalent.
It’s a legacy of Empire… these are British people being let down, often their lives ruined, by a Conservative government using bureaucracy to deny them the rights they (and the rest of us) once thought they had. If they haven’t yet done the same to people falling into the settled status (and more ominous pre-settled status) schemes that they’ve invented to water down the rights of Europeans living here… (or those missing out on them due to parental or civil service mistakes)… be thankful for now… but those people should watch their backs (in your particular case I’d be spending the money getting British Citizenship with modern and tangible documentation that you have it… don’t place yourself at the mercy of the UK Home Secretary, ever, given the choice, whoever they are).
Well you've hit the nail on the head Kelvin, the very obvious reason that I have never been arsed to apply for British nationality is precisely because it would provide me with absolutely no advantages at all. Plus the need to swear an oath of allegiance to Queen Elizabeth II and her successors (not very convincing when you are on Special Branch's list of far-left activists) and I would probably fail the citizen's test, most Brits probably would.
The only disadvantages that I can think of, genuinely, is that I can only vote in local elections and in recent years I have vaguely pissed off the staff at the French consulate by talking to them in English when applying for a passport, my French has deteriorated beyond reasonable use - their English is now much better than my French!
Other than that I cannot think of one single disadvantage. I suspect however that if I was black I would have applied for British nationality a long time ago.
It’s a Legacy of Empire
The irony is that when when HMT Empire Windrush was docking into Tilbury docks the Caribbean was still part of the British Empire. When I came to the UK I didn't even come from British territory, and yet I now have more right to be here, along with other EU nationals, even if they have only been here for half a dozen years, than some people who came from British Commonwealth countries decades ago. It's frankly ridiculous. And racist.
is precisely because it would provide me with absolutely no advantages at all
Having current and tangible documents to show you are have UK nationality absolutely would give you the advantage of your stay and rights here not being at the whim of a UK Home Secretary. Unlike those caught up in the Windrush scandal due to lost or destroyed documents, or anyone living here but not taking up UK nationality at all (except perhaps Irish nationals).
Nah, I'm not at the mercy of the Home Office. There is no way Britian will expell or deport French nationals. I'm better protected than Shamima Begum who was born in the UK and only has UK nationality was.
I will probably do something though because renewing my passport is a bit of a pain in the arse and also because UK law has changed and I have now have a right through my mother, due to sex equality laws. I won't have to swear allegiance to anyone! My mother had British nationality but couldn't pass it on to me.
I won’t have to swear allegiance to anyone!
Always a bonus!
Ernie
You said you had never heard of a european being refused NHS treatment. I found one example and I have heard of many where european folk have had to prove their entitlement to healthcare
You said you had never heard of anti european racist attacks - again I have heard of many and found you one example
Yes its not the same. However to say these things do not exist is wrong. they do
Nah, I’m not at the mercy of the Home Office. There is no way Britian will expell or deport French nationals.
I’m sure Boris Becker once thought similarly. I know of Irish citizens who have been deported and we have a common travel area agreement.
(To be clear I don’t care what you do about citizenship but I would put nothing past the Home Office atm)
You said you had never heard of a european being refused NHS treatment.
No I did not say that at all. I said that I knew of no examples of Europeans who came legally into the UK as toddlers, lived here uninterrupted for decades, paid all their taxes, being refused NHS. It's happened to people from the Caribbean.
I found one example
No you didn't. That was not a comparable example at all. She wasn't even refused NHS treatment. Plus she said that she would ignore the letter. Did you actually read your own link?
There is no racism against Europeans when it comes to immigration and nationality legislation and procedures.
But the obsession on here is to bang on about alleged racism against Europeans.
Edit: Whilst ignoring actual racism against black people.
Edit 2 : ** Or denied NHS treatment – Windrush Generation individuals have been denied NHS cancer treatment,
Edit
so I found you one example of racist attacks on a european so they are real not alleged. I found one example of someone having to prove their entitlement toNHScare
Yes you are right some of the windrush folk could not prove their entitlement or found it very hard and yes you are right its a disgrace
I also carefully did not call the tories scum for their actions or condemn them in strong words partly because have told me off for that before 🙂
Good point kilo, probably best to get Brit nationality in case I get a custodial sentence of more than 12 months.
Although of course we know that they can withdraw Brit nationality due to criminal activity. So pointless.
TJ the example you threw up concerns possible non-UK residents. Non-UK do not, understandably, have an automatic right to certain NHS treatment/procedures, why should they? That's not necessarily racism at all
The examples I am referring to concern UK residents from the Caribbean who have lived here for decades, and are refused NHS treatment - that is racism imo.
There really isn't a comparison between the two.
I found one example of someone having to prove their entitlement toNHScare
No you haven't. You have found one example of someone who is refusing to prove her entitlement, without any evidence on your part that she has been refused treatment.
There is no comparison with the injustices meted out to some from the Windrush Generation.
My point was re your comment that the UK won’t deport French citizens. The HO is perfectly happy to deport EU nationals.
Withdrawal of British citizenship due to criminality is actually very difficult to action. The threshold is involvement in serious organised crime, with a lengthy appeals process, as opposed to just getting a 12 month sentence, the threshold for deportation. Deprivation and deportation are miles apart in practice, law and use.
👍
And how many on here care? Where’s the usual ranting and outrage about how terrible the Tories are?
It is a thread about Braverman - any outrage comes by default and there is no need to rant about how terrible the tories are when she is peak terrible tory and 99% of people know that already.
I think Ernie's got a valid point and we should all be aware of our implicit bias. Part of it is just pure selfishness. We are all going to be affected personally by the racism of the Brexit vote (it may be a 'lesser' racism but it was still driven by racism) if we're not already being affected so it tends to dominate our focus.
Windrush is not going to affect me personally. I am angry about it, but in the same way that I'm angry about a lot of things that don't affect me personally.
However, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Tories were emboldened by the referendum. Of course, this all started in 2011 but the referendum really gave the Tories validation that they were on the right track and racism wins votes.
So yeah, ernie, we all suffer from implicit bias and in an ideal world we could distribute our anger to the most worthy causes but humans just don't work like that, unfortunately.
However, you still tried to use this issue to score petty STW points and you still voted for Brexit. You are more responsible for this than any of the people here you are trying to shift the blame onto.
For someone who goes on about petty point scoring it is strange Bruce that you feel it necessary to keep telling me what my motives were for posting a link to an important story concerning the Home Secretary Suella Braverman.
You are of course entitled to your opinion but I know exactly why I posted a significant story about Suella Braverman on a thread about Suella Braverman, I really don't need to be told.
There is nothing strange about me adding my personal view when I posted the link to the Guardian story.
Expressing my disappointment at the Labour leadership's apparent weak response at a very significant injustice was perfectly valid imo, especially in light of the fact Labour has been repeatedly accused on stw of pandering to racists.
It also greatly contrasts Sir Keir Starmer's very high profile campaign against alledged anti-Semitism - no one has been denied NHS cancer treatment or deported in recent years due to anti-Semitism.
I also think it was perfectly valid for me to make the connection between immigration from the Caribbean and freedom of movement, we are talking about the right of people to enter and settle in the UK. And different attitudes towards FOM and Commonwealth immigration are very much linked to racism imo.
I don't like racism and if you want to suggest that me highlighting it is merely an exercise in pretty point scoring then that's up to you, but I will continue to do so especially when it is bound up with high levels of hypocrisy.
The Windrush scandal does really wind me up exceptionally. I think it is probably because of a combination of factors - gross injustice, obvious racism, and the fact that although it was never going to affect me I too came to the UK as very young immigrant child, it somehow makes it more personal for me.
And just so you can accuse me of more petty point scoring here is another example of racism combined with hypocrisy which sickens me:
Edit: That above story will not get a fraction of the coverage that alledged anti-Semitism got in the media when Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader. Black people in the UK simply don't matter to the Labour Party as much as Jews and East Europeans do. Perhaps they are the wrong colour.
I'm sure Cruella will be quietly chuffed about this:
https://twitter.com/maybulman/status/1611309095193137152?s=20&t=_dBEmSe3nB9QyICtImwQ1Q
This tells you everything you need to know about the supposed 'safe routes' that she was clearly so clueless about at the last parliamentary committee. This government covers itself in glory once again
Like I said, I agreed with everything you said. So far I haven't seen anyone who has disagreed.
However, you seem to be saying I objected to everything you said. I didn't, please stop saying I did.
What I objected to was Mr. 'I never talk about Brexit' telling the rest of us off and bringing Brexit into the discussion in order to highlight our 'hypocrisy'.
If you don't want to address my point that it was your vote for Brexit that helped turbocharge all forms of racism in the UK then that's fine. I understand the subject falls foul of your convoluted formula for determining what constitutes talking about Brexit and what doesn't.
I own my implicit bias and I accept it means I don't focus as much on some issues as I do others. I consciously try to account and correct for it that but I am human and I also accept that I'm going to be more concerned with things that affect me directly.
Can you accept your own shortcomings in this or are you going to continue to pretend that the Brexit vote had no effect on overall levels of racism in the UK?
Can you accept your own shortcomings
Well thankfully you are here to point them out to me, so hopefully that should help.
Expressing my disappointment at the Labour leadership’s apparent weak response at a very significant injustice was perfectly valid imo, especially in light of the fact Labour has been repeatedly accused on stw of pandering to racists.
a perfectly valid point IMO and i also get the point about no mention of this on STW considering other topics that get discussed to death.
I do not see this as internet point scoring from Ernie but I see why it can appear like that. Ernie is the best (mass?) debater on here IMO. He has strong views and makes them known strongly
Rarely anything but polite and well thought thru argument. Sarky bugger at times tho 🙂
Ernie and I butt heads a lot but there is no personal animus just two folk with strong views butting heads. He often makes really good points and makes me stop and think. . I for one welcome his contributions as its a part of making this place less of an echo chamber.
I do not see this as internet point scoring from Ernie but I see why it can appear like that. Ernie is the best (mass?) debater on here IMO. He has strong views and makes them known strongly
Rarely anything but polite and well thought thru argument. Sarky bugger at times tho 🙂
If he wants to debate then he can debate. What I'm getting sick of is him popping up on threads to make snarky comments regarding Brexit and then saying, 'I don't talk about Brexit' when he gets challenged.
Talk about Brexit or don't talk about Brexit, it's absolutely fine either way. Just don't get upset if people want to talk to you about Brexit if you start talking about Brexit.
My daughters were very nearly denied entry into the UK last year. They were 15 and 17 at the time, travelling with my wife and I in the same car back from the continent. They were both born in the UK and have lived there all their lives, gone to school here, have NI numbers and NHS numbers.
The reason? Both only have Dutch passports. The border guard said she had reasonable belief that they would be staying longer than 3 months (no shit love, they live here).
Had they been travelling alone they would definietly have been detained. Apparently even though they were born here (which it says on thier Dutch passports) they absolutely have to have a British passport or apply for right to remain.
My wife who is Dutch and has lived here for 25 years in continuous employment at a pretty high level has also been asked to prove her status numorous times in various circumstances over the last 12 months, but very rarely before that.
Things are getting much worse very rapidly and I don't doubt for a second that as a French citizen without a UK passport you will come up against increasing pressure to 'prove' your legitamcy as the whole Brexit shitshow continues
This country is so messed up its beyond belief
I thunk the moral of the story is get as many passports as you can in these troubling times.
My partner was born abroad to an English mother and travelled here regularly with right of abode until she moved here at 15 (never really gave it much attention as it was never a problem).
Traveling to Europe could be a problem so about 15 years ago she decided to get her British passport to make traveling on the continent easier. Bloody glad she did that then rather than waiting till now...
Citizenship ceremony was an utter pantomime and amounted to nothing more than pledging allegiance to the queen and her descendants to some people dressed up like Morris dancers. It was outrageous and my partner sent me home half way through the ceremony lest I say something.
She said things only got worse after I left so she was probably right to send me on my way, she said many people were confused with what was going on and the atmosphere was awful.
What I’m getting sick of is him popping up on threads to make snarky comments regarding Brexit and then saying, ‘I don’t talk about Brexit’ when he gets challenged.
Yeah it's a point which you have made more than once Bruce, I think everyone, including me, gets it.
And I have also already made the point that I am perfectly prepared to question the validity of blaming everything on brexit and this obsessive attitude which only wants to talk about brexit and practically nothing else. I don't think that I am the only one to see it like that.
However I am not prepared to debate the issue of whether the UK should remain in the EU, which was always very difficult to debate sensibly anyhow - if you don't agree you are a looney/stupid/racist, and is no longer a relevant question, or the issue of rejoining which is clearly not going to happen anytime soon.
If that makes you "sick" I can only offer my apologies, it's just the way it is, I won't be changing what I post. You might consider lightening up though and not getting too upset about what other people post? It works quite well for me - if I disagree I might challenge them but I tend not to create a song and dance concerning how upset they have made me feel.
Winston - thanks for your advice. Yes entering a country with a hard border can occasionally cause issues. However I am very confident indeed that not having a UK passport will not disadvantage me in my ability to enter the UK.
I can prove settled status, which gives as much right to enter the UK as a UK passport holder within less than 5 seconds - the time it takes me to write "settled status" in the search box of my email account in my phone. I've just done a dry run.
When the Home Office granted me settled status they made it clear that I would not be getting a hard copy and that the Home Office email and the links provided was all that I needed to prove my legal right to enter and remain in the UK.
I might not have needed to provide proof when the UK was in the EU but now that the UK has a hard border I might be asked. It might be vaguely inconvenient but it's not exactly the end of the world - it's what happens when you enter most countries in the world.
And back on topic, the EU settled status scheme is not available to the Windrush Generation. As an EU national I have more rights in the UK than some people born in Commonwealth countries.
People effected by the Windrush scandal had MORE rights here than those now with settled status... or indeed than EU citizens living here before Brexit... what they didn't have (through no fault of their own) was the EVIDENCE that they did. I wouldn't trust the home office to keep records for me, or administer a digital only scheme, I'd want firm documentation in my own hands (and I do). Great that you're so relaxed about it all, but, please, don't get caught out.
and I would probably fail the citizen’s test, most Brits probably would.
A Polish friend of mine was studying for her citizens test, and while I'm no historian, I like to think I've a pretty good grasp of British history, and honestly I'd have failed so hard they'd have put me on a plane to Rwanda the same day. Its a ridiculous thing.
Yeah, my wife was vaguely thinking of getting a UK passport at one time so we tried a few of the 'mock' papers. Absolute nonsense - I couldn't get half the answers right. Questions about friggin UK TV gameshows , Royal palaces and mad traditions absolutely no one has done since the dark ages.
To be expected I guess as they want you to fail
Yeah, my wife was vaguely thinking of getting a UK passport at one time so we tried a few of the ‘mock’ papers.
A few got passed around at work by someone applying for citizenship. All of us, apart from him, failed.
