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The Welsh teams are competitive in the pro12
Not really 4th, 8,9,10th of 12. Onlyvthe italians are below scarlets, blues and dragons.
galaticos of the Ospreys, throwing millions at southern hemi mercenaries wont do the game in Wales any good.
Doesnt have to be one or the other. But when the O's had Holah, Filo, Marshall et al it didnt stop them producing loads of Wales players.
Those players are better than Arhip, Ardron, Bernado, Cuvibati, Dirkson, Hassler, Matevasi, Natoga and Steenkamp...dross.
Yes it is, the owners are the Fremch eq of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Rupert Murdoch. Even allowing for the huge wages, they have prob lost more down their sofa.
What happens when they get bored, lose their money, get locked up or die?
Toulons budget this year was reported to be 35 million euros!!!! Shit the ****ing bed!!!!
Listening to it on the radio sounded like the dream Ba Ba's side 😆
I'm sceptical of that number @wrecker. I think some of the other French sides are spending more. Dan Carter doesnt come cheap and if Toulon had that sort of budget they would have a better 10 than Michelak
Exactly wrecker.
Listening to it on the radio sounded like the dream Ba Ba's side
I doubt that Toulon have ever heard of Baabaas style throwabout rugby. They are THE trundle-orcs, if ever a team could be described as such. Such a waste of talent.
I'm sceptical of that number @wrecker. I think some of the other French sides are spending more. Dan Carter doesnt come cheap and if Toulon had that sort of budget they would have a better 10 than Michelak
It might be bollocks.
Was reading about glaws. For sale for £25m-odd. They aren't going to win the euro cup, or even the AP any time soon but they play decent rugby, have a fair sized following, some good players and they turn a 1/2M profit every year. There's a lot to be said for that. Sure there are better investment opportunities around, but for a wealthy fan its a goer surely?
if Toulon had that sort of budget they would have a better 10 than Michelak
They do.
Sanchez, Hernandez and Giteau.
Burgess to start as flanker, will be interesting.
Interesting stuff a_a. It's a shame for the bloke but he seems to be a sensible chap who recognises that there's more to life than Rugby. Good luck to him.
"Once I got all the information from the medical staff the actual decision was quite easy,"
I wonder how a boxer or MMA fighter would get on?
@wrecker - 10x earnings puts Gloucester at £5m. Clearly I have no idea how valuing sports franchises really works but there is nothing like the money in rugby that there is in football which just keeps going up and up. From what I know owning Rugby clubs has been a rich mans hobby, the Toulon owner has put in a big amount over the last 5+ years.
@Pigface, yes interesting indeed, its been discussed since he came over as to whether he'd play flanker or centre. I'd say flanker is more technical and harder to pick up quickly if you've not been playing there for years. I wonder if the emergence of all the centre talent for England has promoted this. We shall see.
@wrecker - 10x earnings puts Gloucester at £5m.
That valuation doesn't include any assets though does it?
From what I know owning Rugby clubs has been a rich mans hobby, the Toulon owner has put in a big amount over the last 5+ years.
Kind of the point, Glaws is sustainable in that it turns a profit. Whilst there are better investments out there, at least this won't be a complete money pit like many clubs would. Bath lost £2.9m this year and £3.5-odd last year.
Gloucester is probably as good a bet as you'd get for an investment in the AP. Turns a profit, owns its own ground, plus if rumour has it, a fair amount around the immediate vicinity. I bet if you remove the `home' matches at Twickenham, Wembley etc, only Tigers attract a bigger crowd. Average AP gate this season is over 14k so with a capacity of 16.5k, there is room for improvement.
I dunno scamper;
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/stats/attendance.php#koP2isMuKlWo02m4.97
But broadly agreed that Glaws isn't a bad business. I have no idea if it's worth anywhere near £25M though.
I can't believe Irish, Sarries, Quins etc get those totals from your day in, day out Premiership matches outside Twickers
I call bobbins on those figures Exeter get really good crowds, What is the capacity at Bath it used to be tiny.
Here's last years from another source;
http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=436
I think the wreck used to hold 12k, now 14k. According to my ST holding colleague, most home games are a sell out. Sandy Park holds 12.5K. Exeter don't have as many fans as barf.
I think Exeter is about 10k? Barth can't be more than about 12k surely? EDIT, there you go.
Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure Glaws attendance figures this year are back up to where they were when they were regularly challenging for the title 6 years or so ago. So they must be doing something right off the pitch along with evidently more use of the Facilities outside rugby.
Glaws are lucky IMHO. A fairly sizable city with a monopoly on live sport (at a decent level), no soccer or whatever to try and compete with. It's brilliant! I wish we in brizzle could sack both of our shit soccer teams and just be a rugby city!
those figures are massively skewed by the "super Saturday" games at borrowed stadiums these show averages and (freak) highest
http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=469
edit
wrecker found it too 🙂
I wonder if the emergence of all the centre talent for England has promoted this. We shall see.
....we're hardly short on Flankers though either are we? Certainly not 6's anyway....there's no way that he's going to play 7 is there?!
Tend to agree that they'd be a great investment for someone who wanted to buy a rugby team.
The fans are there, their own grounds there, lack of debt, bring through their own players too - with a decent catchment area.
And they've got David Humphrey's running the show - if you look at what he did with Ulster in recent history you'll see that success on the pitch shouldn't be a complete pipe-dream too.
Was a good interview with him on Irish news , but talking about Glaws now. His philosophy's the same at Glaws now as it was at Ulster - and IMO it's the same at the other provinces and is the fundamental driving force behind Irish rugby success at club level.
“I have always maintained that on-pitch success drives everything,” Humphreys said.
“The better you do on the pitch, the more people will come and watch you. The more people who come and watch you, the more sponsors you can attract. The more sponsors you can attract, the more money you have for recruitment, facilities and the academy.
“This league is so tough that you need to build a squad that can sustain a challenge for the entire season.”
http://www.the42.ie/david-humphreys-ulster-2027944-Apr2015/
Also, meant to pick up on this earlier
The competition in the European cup is essentially the IRU and unrestrained spending.
IRFU involvement is a massive red herring when talking about Irish success. Leinster would carry on as they are as a sustainable club without the IRFU. They generate their own income, through gates, prize money and merchandise , not from central funds. Think only a couple of clubs in Europe have higher average attendances - Bordeaux and Leicester spring to mind. It's that sort of philosophy above, with cooperation and people pulling in the same direction that drives the success.
Ulster and Munster are similar - self suficient- and have less outgoings as they both own their own grounds. Don't think Connacht are quite there, but they're a vital part of the overall success as they complete the set up as 4 provinces - which is what the fans want, it the "goldilocks" set up for this situation and the fans and player numbers involved.
Otherwise the regions might as well be franchises.
But would the Irish players still want to stay there if they had to pay all their tax?
You've still got almost the entire Ireland national side spread around 2 teams, and the support should be good; there aren't many clubs competing for fans! IRFU involvement in the success is anything but a red herring!
Duckman,
Do players play rugby for success on the pitch or for a tax status?
wrecker,
The spread of fans support is split between a similar number of teams as Wales and more than in Scotland, the two most comparable others, so number of teams is hardly a factor in determining club rugby success.
And how is the "[i]almost the entire national side spread around 2 teams[/i]" any different from Scotland? Apart from the fact it's actually 4.
The support is spread of fans is split between a similar number of teams as Wales and more than in Scotland, the two most comparable others, so it's hardly a factor in determining club rugby success.
Eh? Concentrating your best players into a few teams at the expense of a national league is going to be an advantage to the national side. And I don't think the welsh regions get the kind of numbers that Munster and Leinster do.
And how is the "almost the entire national side spread around 2 teams" any different from Scotland?
Because the Irish are actually quite good. They have plenty of support, ample money and a very good grassroots structure.
Apart from the fact it's actually 4.
How many players from Ulster and Connaught were in the Irish 1st XV this 6N?
Do players play rugby for success on the pitch or for a tax status?
I think most pro players play for money if they eanted on field sucess they would go to Toulon. To suggest that the Irish Rugby Union dont contribute to success by paying anything is odd.
There are hundreds of thousands of people who pay (a little) to play the game for the love of it, our subs were £4 per game. I like to think most professional players play because they love the game, it just happens that they get paid to do it.
I like to think most professional players play because they love the game, it just happens that they get paid to do it.
I think they do at the start, and consider themselves very lucky. Our coach played for Bath and Wasps. He suffered injury after injury, and now says that if he had his time again he doubts he'd choose to have gone pro. Others have become a bit jaded, having had time in AP and champ clubs (some still playing). A few years in, it is a job and one they can't afford to quit.
I'm sure they do love the game but they also wamted good money. Irish teams in combination with central contracts and a favourable tax situation means they pay well. I'm sure those two new kiwi lads havent moved to ireland for the standard of rugby or the guiness.
Concentrating your best players into a few teams at the expense of a national league is going to be an advantage to the national side.
We were talking about club success and what gives Irish the advantage there, not about International success - which until very recently has been a whole lot rarer. The concentration in fewer clubs actually means they take a much bigger hit at 6N and autumn international time with players away. Hardly a club advantage for the games that carry on, apart from the fact it's made them invest in their youth and development set-ups to try to maintain and build on what they've achieved.
Anyway, it's not a case of the Irish clubs bringing players in and concentrating them in a few teams. It's actually the teams investing in youth and development , bringing their own players through and building sucessful teams based on them, and then them players going on to represent their country at International level. Successfully.
And I don't think the welsh regions get the kind of numbers that Munster and Leinster do.
Not at present. But they did 10-15 years ago, even more tbh. Leinster were struggling to sell out Donnybrook with 6000 capacity. Now they've had to move to keep up with fan interest, based on performances on the pitch. It comes back to club success driving supporter interest driving income and re-investment. What the IRFU do deserve credit for is prioritizing investment coaching, training and development of young players.
As I mentioned before, the initial set up is "goldilocks" IMO because 4 teams as 4 provinces just fits so well with what's there already. You couldn't choose a better way to have if you had 1000 years. It's taken advantage of a natural fan loyalty underlying the situation. And player and supporter numbers just happen to workout so well with 4. You could say The IRFU got lucky in this regard, but it's not so different from what the WRU and SRU have tried to do.
Because the Irish are actually quite good. They have plenty of support, ample money and a very good grassroots structure.
Based on good home grown player coming through a good youth development structure and achieving good club success
Here's a very accurate picture of Irish rugby club finances;
http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493
Regardless of tax, the players are well paid.
Pah, to you and your facts. The irish stay in ireland because they love their mams and country. Not like those welsh who would sell their nans for a contract in France.
So, I see Future World Cup Winner Sam is playing in the back row today.
On another note, the Ospreylian front row are playing beautiful rugby on the wings tonight! Soft hands, bach!
They're getting mullered in the scrum, mind you!
Glasgow are giving Cardiff a bit of a lesson tonight.
Is it me, or is Burgess not quite all that?
For all the hype, Burgess seems to be quite a decent, honest chap. I wish him all the best (which is saying something; I'm a bristol fan) and to be fair, he hasn't looked out of place so far at all.
On another note, the Ospreylian front row are playing beautiful rugby on the wings tonight! Soft hands, bach!
Quite. 11-3 up at half time vs the mighty Treviso 😆
For someone whom we've been told is the best League player in years I'm a bit puzzled as to why he keeps dropping the ball - its been a bit of a feature of his season so far.
Not that I know owt of course.
Nathan Hughes appeal upheld
If you missed it, we have more now on that breaking story we brought to you during the first half.Wasps forward Nathan Hughes has successfully appealed against his three-week ban for the incident that left Northampton and Wales wing George North unconscious during the Saints' victory on 27 March.
An independent panel has ruled that "no act of foul play took place".
bbc
Here's a very accurate picture of Irish rugby club finances;
Interested to know how you made the judgement on it's accuracy?
To me , it looked more like a forum piece of opinion and speculation from a (slightly envious) Welsh rugby fan.
Plenty of similar on here , and worth about the same too. 😉
I'm sure Nick Williams will be cleared soon!!
Dudley Phillips is a shite ref.
Not like those welsh who would sell their nans for a contract in France.
I thought you'd already established they moved 'cos they wanted success?
here
anagallis_arvensis - Member
...if they wanted on field sucess they would go to Toulon.
POSTED 6 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Burgess seems to be quite a decent, honest chap.
Very much so! Seems a good guy.
Sadly, he's been hyped beyond all compare and that's just not fair on him if he doesn't come even close to living up to it. Very few run and wriggle converts ever have.....
Interested to know how you made the judgement on it's accuracy?
Because it's based on the IRFUs published accounts. I can't deny that the piece is slanted but the facts are indisputable.
Sadly, he's been hyped beyond all compare and that's just not fair on him if he doesn't come even close to living up to it. Very few run and wriggle converts ever have.....
I wouldn't be so hasty. He did OK tonight on the blindside. Replaced after an hour by Fearns (of henson punch fame) who managed to stay on the field for a whole minute before going in the bin 🙄 Halfwit.
wrecker - Member
For all the hype, Burgess seems to be quite a decent, honest chap. I wish him all the best (which is saying something; I'm a bristol fan) and to be fair, he hasn't looked out of place so far at all.
POSTED 47 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Like him too. Decent and honest - think he looks more suited to being a forward, the more constant involvement, as long as he learns to stay on the right side of the refs re penalties.
And tbh, if Haskell can be an international six...
Not like those welsh who would sell their nans for a contract in France.
I thought you'd already established they moved 'cos they wanted success?
here
anagallis_arvensis - Member
...if they wanted on field sucess they would go to Toulon.
POSTED 6 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
No, i was talking about the irish in second bit you posted.
I'd be interested to see the data you compared it to to verify his claims as accurate.
And tbh, if Haskell can be an international six...
😀
wrecker - Member
And tbh, if Haskell can be an international six...
😀
😀
But he's played in the Southern Hemisphere you know! He's like, amazing, dude!
"Brand" Haskell - Making every other international 6 look good for ages!
I'd be interested to see the data you compared it to to verify his claims as accurate.
Sorry Loum, but the info with references is all there, if you want to refute it; go ahead.
79mins 10 secs. Bath up by 10. Commentator; It's looking less like Newcastle will get a win from this.
Hardly intuitive.
be interested to see the data you compared it to to verify his claims as accurate.
Which bits do you think are inaccurate and why?
No, i was talking about the irish in second bit you posted.
This bit?
if they wanted on field sucess they would go to Toulon.
You sure there?
The thing is, that 5 of the last 9 European cups have been won by Irish teams, so I'm really not sure why they'd need to move to Toulon for that.
And then checking the teams for the upcoming Semi final, all the Irish lads involved look to be lining up for Leinster.
Whereas the Toulon squad looks to have a Welshman called Halfpenny, and I'm not sure he won much at club level before moving over there.
So you'll have to accept my apologies for misunderstanding you - but the facts all pointed towards it looking like that's what you were tying to say.
you'll have to accept my apologies for misunderstanding you - but the facts all pointed towards it looking like that's what you were tying to say.
Facts dont "try" to say anything they either say it or they dont.
Have Cardiff been this poor all season? Except for 10 mins when Glasgow chilled out they were very ordinary.
Yes, Cardiff have been shit all season, they have a lot of injuries at the moment too. Tavis Knoyle played 12 last week and some 19 year old kid was drafted inbthis week. Coach legged it back to NZ a few weeks ago. Only the Dregs and the 2 italian teams are below them in the league. Scarlets have been pretty poor too. Ospreys have done well with some kids but whoever chose the starting front row tonight wants shooting.
I thought so - Glasgow played well enough but hard to imagine they will get the same freedom in the last 3 games - Connacht, Ospreys and Ulster.
I think I counted "seem" twice and "appear" three times in the first four or five paragraphs in that piece from gwlad. I'm not sure I'd have linked it describing it as "accurate". But hey, if it fits with how you feel, then fill yer boots. 🙂
If you're going to dismantle a piece then go ahead. It'll need to be a bit more involved than pointing out fluffy language though, like finding actual inaccuracies and that.
And I don't think the welsh regions get the kind of numbers that Munster and Leinster do.
Not at present. But they did 10-15 years ago, even more tbh. Leinster were struggling to sell out Donnybrook with 6000 capacity.
No they didn't, not even a fraction. That's one reason that the rebel season happened (1999) and why the regions were formed (2003?). Since the regions were formed they lost a huge number of potential 'live'spectators.
I was at Euro Cup games (against big teams like Stade Francais) where there were barely 1500 people in St Helens. The only time they'd get decent numbers was when playing Llanelli or Cardiff.
The last time I remember big crowds in Welsh league games would be when I was a teenager. I'm 47 this year!
If you're going to dismantle a piece then go ahead. It'll need to be a bit more involved than pointing out fluffy language though, like finding actual inaccuracies and that.
Like I said, if it fits what you want to believe, then fair enough, go with it. It just [i]seems[/i] a bit fluffy to me. Or maybe it [i]appears[/i] a bit fluffy.
To be clear. What are ioum and wrecker disagreeing about? I think its fairly obvious that irish teams have more money to spend than the welsh regions and it would seem they can compete with the English prem teams too, judging by the two kiwi lads that were signed this week. Its also the case that the pro12 teams have an advantage over the english prem in europe because they dont have to spread their resources as far. The Welsh teams have not shown this to be the case due to lack of cash.
Its hard to put a figure to it all though as we dont even know which irish players are on central contracts.
They all are.
I've read a few pieces on the Welsh club vs province (probably posted here by stw-ers) and I think that move caused a massive loss of identity for the supporters. All that history in the Welsh club game cast aside. I'm not surprised the club supporters don't travel to the cities to watch the new clubs, that and the fact that on the broader European stage they have not been competitve
What every irish player or every irish international?
The welshvregions get good crowds when they play each other its the game v the irish, welsh and italians no one cares about!!
What's the definition of a central contract?
A contract where the player is paid by the union?
Which irish players are paid by the IRFU?
All of them!
Complicated, not sure I understand the structures.
Anyway more importantly, Dudley Philips bent, incompetant or blind. Binned Webb for a high tackle last night. Webb grabbed the bloke under the arms! Didnt even check with the video ref.
Oh and the video ref who was italian couldnt identify the italian player comitting an offence despite seeing his face. He needed his number.
anagallis_arvensis - MemberOh and the video ref who was italian couldnt identify the italian ayer committing an offence despite seeing his face. He needed his number.
Although tbf the offence they were looking at wasn't even an offence. Both players went for a high ball. If the Italian had been carded it would have been a poor decision. Philips though is a terrible, terrible ref and made many terrible decisions last night.
True it was nothing, but to claim he didnt know who it was makes tbe whole thing a shambles.
anagallis_arvensis - MemberTrue it was nothing, but to claim he didnt know who it was makes tbe whole thing a shambles.
It IS a shambles! Often neither the TMO or the ref is willing to make the correct decision. The Nick Williams thing was a perfect example.
Ulster have had how many people banned this season following video refs and refs only having given them yellows.
Only established internationals are on Irish contracts. Most of the Ulster squad are contracted to Ulster Rugby not the IRFU. I believe the only IRFU contracted are Best, Timble and Bowe. The likes of Henry and Henderson would be on an Ulster contract.
What happened Nigel Owens in the Ulster game?
He was 'accidentally' taken out by one of the Ulster 2nd rows. (Henderson?) 😉What happened Nigel Owens in the Ulster game?
Seriously, it was just an accidental collision. 🙂
Great win for Exeter and the Dragons
Leinster look like they might not make the playoffs.