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i just think that's another one caught, a young rider getting caught is a different matter it's for their and cycling sake that armstrong needs to stop being a false idol and become a pariah.
I'm not sure that Armstrong is entirely to blame, a huge amount of blame has to be placed on the money and pressure from teams/team managers, even from a very young age.
ie arguably the greatest ever)
He has been immense at marketing the man, the myth the legend the brand ...like becks has with football
LA targeted the TdF and that alone, no classics, other major tours ..i think he only took part in one other but not sure. Great yes, greatest ever, No.
i'm not saying he is, he's definitely a big cog in the machine though.
that's why he's getting all the attention compared to the others charged by USADA.
it still wouldn't surprise me if he somehow wiggles out of this situation despite the burden of proof being lower than a law court.
another point is other sports that have a doping problem but it's not a popular topic unless it's cycling, there is an interesting situation going on in tennis at the moment where players are complaining about a proven doper* coming back from a ban, not because he is a doper but because they think he is spying on them in the changing room.
what have they got to hide?
*was caught with HGH but was transparent about the medical reasons he took it thus reducing his ban.
[url= http://tensport.com.au/news/newsarticles/Tennis-Im-not-locker-room-drugs-spy-says-Odesnik.htm ]http://tensport.com.au/news/newsarticles/Tennis-Im-not-locker-room-drugs-spy-says-Odesnik.htm[/url]
..i think he only took part in one other but not sure
cancer.
And thats bollocks. Cavendish, Wiggins, Boonen, Gilbert, Cancellara, where are the stories about these high achievers? nowhere, because there's nothing to see.
[url= http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/04/boonen-totals-ferrari-after-post-flanders-fete/ ]Not strictly related, but pretty funny.. and implicates a 'performance enhancing' drug[/url]
My colleague told me about this, the car was wrecked near his house so he snuck over to have a gawp .. no pics unfortunately.
Personally I would have a word with my mate after checking the date that story was published.
@ Mr Smith I am not sure cancer is a recognised bike race. Clearly his story is a remarkable one of recovery from the Big C to be a superb athlete. You can see why it would inspire folk and why he , and others, would not want to tarnish it.
If he is found guilty then he should be a pariah, as should Merckx, Anquetil, Coppi, Simpson, Ullrich and probably Hinault and Indurain, although those last two were never proven, just rather suspicious. Maybe all previous results should be struck from the record, and the sport should start again with a clean slate. Unfair to those who did achieve victories clean (assuming anyone did), but the way the sport glorifies convicted drug cheats cannot possibly help with this issue.
It's a very unfortunate fact that professional cycling's history is inextricably linked with drugs. We may even have riders who have admitted to doping riding on the tour right now. Armstrong isn't really to blame, although he does demonstrate what success can bring. Unfortunately as long as there is money and prestige in cycling [b]and[/b] people think they can get away with it, then there will be doping. The authorities have to make sure that people can't get away with it.
no doubt he gives a lot of inspiration to people in their battle with cancer, hopefully that will be his legacy not the other things he also used drugs to beat.
Warton if one of them started to dominate though just watch the whispering start..
How can he be soo good etc.
Seeing Lance felled by a carrier bag then his true grit recovery ..is that drugs or someone digging deeper than you and me ever could? At the end of a long stage as well.
If LA wasnt such an abrasive character he'd be a thousand times more popular however its probably part of what drives him as well.
Can we stop these sort of threads now. Its turning into trolling. Lets wait and see. Of course if the charges are dropped again it will be seen as suddenly the agency are"his friends".
Still a star amongst stars IMO. Though I know nothing of Armstrong outside of his racing, never could give a ****.
Then I did grow up following Merckx, and have always struggled with the random nature of these so called witch hunts.
I do feel sorry for Hincapie as his scalp must surely be next, then again he is a nice cheat! rather like Pantani.
Of course if the charges are dropped again it will be seen as suddenly the agency are"his friends".
Exactly. It's got to the point now where there are no winners. If he's found not guilty then there will be people saying it's a conspiracy, a whitewash. If found guilty then there's still no winners and there will be people saying it's all a fabrication - what does it achieve exactly? What do you do with the results? We've already agreed that most others in the top 10 were doping so do you just put an asterisk next to LA (in the same way there should be an asterisk next to a lot of other people). And where now? Strip Virenque of his 7 KOM wins? Posthumously strip Pantani of his win?
And how have USADA got all these former close allies to testify exactly? Have they all suddenly developed a conscience or have USADA managed to find just enough evidence to blackmail them with in return for testimony to bring down their number 1 target. Either way, it's suspicious, unfair and brings us back to the witch-hunt that this has become.
Seeing Lance felled by a carrier bag then his true grit recovery ..is that drugs or someone digging deeper than you and me ever could?
that's you embellishing his 'achievements' and glossing over those who have ridden the spring classics (LA didn't like the cold,mud,cobbles) those who have ridden 2 weeks in the tour with broken collar bones or got back on the bike having been thrown through a barbed wire fence.
i wouldn't set yourself as the standard of what digging deeper means to the average sportsman, that would make every hard climb some kind of epic challenge.
Can we stop these sort of threads now. Its turning into trolling. Lets wait and see.
just stop posting/looking at the tread then, others are happy to have healthy discourse about doping, there must be other threads for you to look at/contribute? i'm sure i saw a what car thread the other day?
Warton if one of them started to dominate though just watch the whispering start..
Yeah, because Cancellara and Boonen haven't dominated the spring classics for the last 6 years have they? Cancellara has only been world TT champion 4 times for christs sake, call that dominating???
You seem to think road cycling begins and ends with the tour, which is what most people who covet the elastic band think
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Cancellara#Career_highlights ]Cancellara[/url]
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boonen#Palmares ]Boonen[/url]
You seem to think road cycling begins and ends with the tour, which is what most people who covet the elastic band think
You mean it doesn't. 😥
Seeing Lance felled by a carrier bag then his true grit recovery ..is that drugs or someone digging deeper than you and me ever could? At the end of a long stage as well.
Panatani has the record time up Ale duez after a long stage, cav the fastest sprinter.you did read the article earlier that said that epo affected people differently ...perhaps he just got a better boost ...anyway I am sure could dig deeper with drugs than without - assuming i took the right ones. this is just more of the LA is awesome and no one else can compare with him - true for the TdF of late but not true in general as people keep saying.
If LA wasnt such an abrasive character he'd be a thousand times more popular however its probably part of what drives him as well.
How exactly could he be more popular ?. His personality is neither here nor there People who know very little or nothing about cycling will name LA as the best of all time for example, for many i bet he is the only cyclist they can name.
Can we stop these sort of threads now. Its turning into trolling.
Is it?perhaps you could stop "trolling" with your unwavering defence? Oh you mean the doubters/people you disagree with dont you
Lets wait and see. Of course if the charges are dropped again it will be seen as suddenly the agency are"his friends".
Well he does seem to have had special treatment in the past re testing so perhaps if this had not happened there would be no suspicion?
Of course if he is found guilty you will immediately accept it , stop saying it was a witch hunt and admit you were wrong?
Somebody asked for stories about [url= http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2009-05-09-boonen-cocaine-test_N.htm ]Boonen[/url]
And what do people think about three Sky riders looking far too easy while Cadel grovels to stay on and all the others have been shot out the back?
I thought it was great!
Like in the good old days of drug-fuelled attacks.
is that drugs or someone digging deeper than you and me ever could
Digging deeper is a sport commenentor myth. In fact you reach a point where trying harder is counter productive. In my case it was around 350W and somewhere between 170bpm and 180bpm depending on fitnes, type of event and duration. I could peak at over 200bpm in a sprint but in an X-C ski race, run, triathlon or bike race I knew that if there were more than a few kms to go then my time over 180bpm was strictly limited and to be used wisely.
Trying to push harder when already at 180bmp and breathing hard soon resulted in a loss of coordination, a break down in style (especially on skis), my head starting to swim, balance going. All these problems resulting in slower progress than recognising the signs of being at the threshold and maintaining that level.
Digging deeper is no myth, just different to what you think it is.
Define it then, cynic-al. Athletes have a psysiological limit beyond which no amount of mental grit will produce anymore power. On the contrary it will simply put the athlete into the red and the athlete will slow down.
Have you ever done or watched a VO2 max test? Whether it's you on the bike or someone else it doesn't take many runs to find the point at which the body's ability to absorb and transport oxygen is reached and the athlete goes into the red.
Trying to push harder when already at 180bmp and breathing hard soon resulted in a loss of coordination, a break down in style (especially on skis), my head starting to swim, balance going. All these problems resulting in slower progress than recognising the signs of being at the threshold and maintaining that level.
And this would explain why you're not a professional athlete, household name or hero to the masses. Pros dig deep, everyone else finds excuses.
No, Don, the reason I'm not a professional athlete is that some people have higher physiological limits than me. On the same test protocol and at similar heart rates Bernard Hinault (similar weight and build) produced 450W. I really doubt he suffered anymore than me to arrive at that result.
All the doping methods that have proved so succesful in recent years have increased the psysiological limits rather than the mental limits. For example, more red blood cells (EPO and other hormones or blood transfussions) means more oxygen to the muscles which can then function at higher rates for longer
I really doubt he suffered anymore than me to arrive at that result.
I imagine he could just dig deeper and ignore any pain and suffering though.
I've done a couple actually, 430W IIRC.
It's about more or different things than you think, is my point.
EDIT...are you a sportive racer?
Edukator speaks the truth. If you've ever raced with a HRM, and ridden in a break, using the same HRM to gauge your effort, going just into the red when on the front, then recovering in the few available seconds until it's your turn again, if you've ever been spat out of the back of the leading bunch watching your heart rate climb past what you assumed was your maximum but still unable to do anything, the idea of 'digging deeper' is a nonsense.
There are physiological limits, and those limits cannot be stretched or altered or redefined by any mental process.
Read this: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=9207
Note this:
[i]PEZ: When we were organising this interview, you referred to pro cycling as "disgusting" - why ?
DW: Because it's run by small minded people who put winning at any price above all normal moral and ethical considerations.
And nothing has changed - only the money has improved.
The size of the bloody ego of the average Elite athlete borders on pathological.
Ironically, all of the true greats - Lemond, Kelly, Hinualt, Indurain have that "extra" that makes them more than just their wins - they have humility.
Doping is rife; has always been and is now far more effective.
[b]Anyone who can't understand that EPO, HGH and the rest give so great an advantage that without it all you can hope for is the leftovers, just doesn't understand physiology[/b]. [/i]
cynic-al - Member
EDIT...are you a sportive racer?
😆
430W eh, unless you're a real porker that makes you a national champion at least, cynic-al. Chris Boardman was measured at 442W.
Reply to your edit, cynic-al:
I've done a few cyclosportives. 102nd from the third wave in the Etape du Tour 97. My main sport is/was winter triathlon with top ten results in the French national championships and world cup events. With only 350 sustainable Watts on tap.
Average 387, max 428.
What educkator said
If you can put out an average sustainable power of 387W I would expect a maximum power of two or three times that, more like 800W. If your max is 428 I really doubt you can sustain more than 250W up a Col, cynic-al.
I'm not arguing against the laws of physiology (tho I'd win if did 😀 ) just saying digging deep is not just about when one is riding on The limit.
I was just quoting figures from my ramp test. Happy to concede I'm nothing special!
mental strength may count in training but you cannot beat the laws of physiology with mental strength.
Granted a winner will have both and the winniest may have immense digability but digging deep if there is nothing to dig into is useless
I'm nothing special!
Send back the BH certificate NOW.
stop this willy waving armchair 2nd cat wannabe neverwasbeen ego stroking and stick to the Pro's.
Sorry Junk, the blue plaque has already been fitted to the house, I couldn't.
willy waving armchair 2nd cat wannabe neverwasbeen ego stroking
T-shirt waiting to happen!
while waiting for the t-shrt read this:
[url= http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/ashenden-understanding-usadas-armstrong-charges_227833 ]http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/ashenden-understanding-usadas-armstrong-charges_227833[/url]
"pro" just means you get paid. There are plently of amateurs out there that perform a lot better than many pros and are successful in their chosen profession too.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/ashenden-understanding-usadas-armstrong-charges_227833
i did read it and it talks about how they decide it says nothing about the LA case.
I fell I have earned the T-shirt now as i had to dig deep to finish it
chapeau to you sir!
What have you achieved in life, Mr Smith? And how many of your 2nd wanabees would have run rings around Armstrong on the same doping protocols, but had the integrity to say "no" to dope.
i won the flower show calligraphy competition age 13 and in the same year i won the air-rifle comp (against the adults too),
that's got to be up there with a tour-giro double?
so lance tries a restraining order so he can have his day in court with some legal muscle and where the burden of proof is higher.
[url= http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/courts/entries/2012/07/09/lance_armstrongs_lawyers_file.html ]http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/courts/entries/2012/07/09/lance_armstrongs_lawyers_file.html[/url]
case dismissed, judge pissed at 80page complaint
[url= http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/armstrong-suit-to-block-doping-charges-dismissed-2413887.html ]http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/armstrong-suit-to-block-doping-charges-dismissed-2413887.html[/url]
I did like the fact the judge made a point of saying the document read like a press release not a court filing.
Basically, USADA are saying there was organised doping within US Postal, as they have banned the 3 doctors involved in US Postal for life.
So, organised doping within Lance's team, and he didn't know about it, when he was team leader? really?
It’s our word against his word. I like our word. We like our credibility
US District Judge Sam Sparks said the original lawsuit seemed more of an attempt to win over public opinion than to focus on legal argument."This court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong's desire for publicity, self-aggrandisement or vilification of defendants, by sifting through 80 mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims," Sparks wrote on Monday.
Here we go again.....
Menthe à l'eau avec des glaçons?
An interesting comment after Rémy got arrested yesterday. Roughly translated from TF1:
"it's a waste of time testing athletes, the only way to catch them is flagrant délit (caught in the act), the gendarmes have been following him since the Tour 2011 and were waitng for him on the car park of the hotel when he met the dealer. The products they are using can't be detected".
Edit: for the non-francophones, Erwann Menthéour was a racer that wrote a book on the Britany racing mafia/dope scene, his nickname was "mente à l'eau".
