[Closed] Still Blindly Defending him Hora?

Thor Hushvod of Credit Agricole:

DZ: Thor what does it feel like to have the coolest name in the peleton?

TH: I didn’t know it was a cool name.

DZ: Trust me it is.

TH: O.k. then. It feels pretty cool then.

DZ: Thanks for the interview.

in many peoples eyes he will never been seen as the greatest cyclist of all time (even though he is)

no he isn't Eddie Merckx is.

I'm not sure he can be declared the greatest cyclist of all time considering that he failed two or three drug tests during his time.

Even if he was awesome to the power of sic and conincidentally far better than any clean rider in history at a time when EPO was rampant, his whole team was dirty and I would be very surprised if Lance didn't know it.

Remember the blue train? Most of them seem to have been on drugs and I don't believe a team leader like Lance would leave the preparation of his TDF team to chance. I'm sure we'll find out more but I would be very surprised if there wasn't an organised doping program like Freiburg University.

I'm not sure he can be declared the greatest cyclist of all time considering that he failed two or three drug tests during his time.

as did all the top ten (apart from the likes of coppi etc when there was no testing and drug use the norm)

Simeoni gets my vote for the greatest.

Really! are you talking about Marco or another Pantani?

Yep he never failed a drugs test - he was once chucked off a tour for odd haematocrit levels but never failed a test.

And for all those claiming armstrong is the most tested athlete ever - this is not the case - more spin from the publicity machine.

I used to be a huge armstrong fan, wastotally in the def clean camp but unfortunately for me there's too much evidence against him now (epo in urine samples, the failed test, his treatment of jesus, simeoni and other riders, the gagging orders on his wife and girlfriends,the team being pre warned of tests and having half hour to prepare for tests, and now the sworn testomony of ten ex team mates). At the end of the end of hte day he's also not a nice person (anyone remember the youtube footage of him deliberately riding into a man at the end of a race and then having a go at him?)

Pantani who also never failed a drugs test"

Really! are you talking about Marco or another Pantani?

Yes this one he had a haemocritic level above 50% so it was termed a fail but he never teested postitive for any drug

Although he never tested positive, his career was beset by doping allegations. In the 1999 Giro d'Italia, he was expelled due to his irregular blood values. Although he was disqualified for "health reasons", it was implied that Pantani's high haematocrit was the product of EPO use. Following later accusations, Pantani went into a depression from which he never fully recovered. He died of acute cocaine poisoning in 2004.

People supporting LA are increasing looking like kids who don't want to accept there is no Father Christmas.

Stop sucking up the spin from the Armstrong Empire.

1. Drugs have been found in his samples
2. The inventor of the test for EPO has looked back at LA blood patterns and said it was impossible for him not to have been doping
3. He battered people we now know were on EPO
4. The list of witnesses who have testified against him is getting longer and longer.

Well Pantini certainly failed one drug test! But not a sport related one.

"Although he never tested positive" that is a bit of an untruth.
You need to look a bit further than the wiki.
Failed tests yes, convicted? no. Death stopped play:-(

Possibly some of the above posters could convict me as being the one who did it.......did any of you work on the Police force that investigated those crimes?

My dad did, I'll have a word with him....

I suspect they're gonna catch LA via the backdoor, which is a cunning wheeze but could backfire. Sounds like they're gonna name and shame sseven people including LA, prove 6 did do some doping/helping doping and thus the implication is LA is guilty. Dangerous tactic that isn't going to resolve anything unless they nail him on his own with his own results etc. etc.

Can we wait and see please.

I doubt he'll ever be proven guilty..

..or innocent!

Oh no. Hes guilty as sin. As proven by drug addicts and internet followers of le Tour 😉

It is worth repeating that those who think "They were all cheating so it's a level playing field" are being naive. It isn't just a case of popping a pill & then going faster. A lot will depend on the skill of the doctor in giving the right drugs in the right doses (that's why they got paid so much.) Even then, different people respond in different ways to doping. Someone percieved as naturally awesome may just have a body which responds better than others to the pharmacology they have available.

omeone percieve as naturally awesome may just have a body which responds better than others to the pharmacology they have available.

In the same way as some people have bodies that respond better to training than others..
The concept of a level playing field in any form is always naive. It's just down to which bumps in the field you approve of.

"Although he never tested positive" that is a bit of an untruth.
You need to look a bit further than the wiki.
Failed tests yes, convicted? no. Death stopped play:-(

Bit like lance but saddly no longer here

hora you can wait for the results but tbh nothing will convince me he is anything other than a doper - no one is that awesome. He was able to beat exceptionally talented athletes like Ulrich and Pantani and not have cheated NO ONE could have done this.
I doubt anything will convince his fan boys either who will shout set up /witch hunt, never failed a test etc

I cannot see LA admitting it and have a road to damascus moment he star would plummet and the sense of smugness from the "doubters" may cause the world to stop spinning

I really does take some incredible personal faith in him to ignore the evidence

" He was able to beat exceptionally talented athletes like Ulrich and Pantani and not have cheated NO ONE could have done this"
I understand what you are saying and it is hard to beleave.
But during the time in question i think that dopers had gone from "i need something to get me over that hill" to "i need something all the time to be the best."
With that comes a certain amount of failure, crash and burn if you like. So they could be beaten with a more consistant approuch.

But we'll see about LA.

Fanboy?

What an exceptional story though. He cameback and not just to live a careful life but to live a life that was at the peak of physical endurance for ANY man.

Simple awesome. Clean or otherwise.

Simple [s]awesome[/s]annoying American who is not as good as other cyclists in history but somepeople want to bum him regardless. Clean or otherwise.

In the same way as some people have bodies that respond better to training than others..
The concept of a level playing field in any form is always naive. It's just down to which bumps in the field you approve of.

I tend to approve of the bumps which aren't cheating.

Do you follow Lance on twitter?

He'd have a teeny weeny bit more credibility of his mantra wasn't "Never tested positive" but "Never taken performance enhancing drugs".

The fact that they're planning on letting self admitted dopers ride the Tour and Vuelta this year before banning them at the end of the season, when they are coincidentally retiring from the sport, makes it look like nothing more than a hatchet job aimed at Armstrong.

If you don't give them some sort of reduced ban/penalty for their testimony, who on earth would come forward on a voluntary basis? Seems quite reasonable if these people (amongst the dozens AT LEAST who know what happened) put themselves out that they don't end up with lifetime bans.

He'd have a teeny weeny bit more credibility of his mantra wasn't "Never tested positive" but "Never taken performance enhancing drugs".

Got to agree. There's an air of the Richard Virenque about his comments (Virenquesque??)

he has though al but as part of his cancer treatment so he cannot really say that tbh but it is an interesting phrase he uses.

What an exceptional story though. He cameback and not just to live a careful life but to live a life that was at the peak of physical endurance for ANY man.

Simple awesome. Clean or otherwise.

If you don't give them some sort of reduced ban/penalty for their testimony, who on earth would come forward on a voluntary basis? Seems quite reasonable if these people (amongst the dozens AT LEAST who know what happened) put themselves out that they don't end up with lifetime bans.

I understand that they need to offer them something to get them to testify but if this is the case, how can you knowingly let a rider like Hincapie ride for Cadel Evans in the Tour and give him a potentially significant advantage over other riders?
If this is the case then it would just serve to tarnish the win if Evans were to take the yellow jersey.

Do you follow Lance on twitter?

No.

He blocked me as I dared to ask why he moaned so much about being tested.

Well I would expect they don't think they are doping now as these offenses are going back quite some time. According to the news reports I read, they've admitted to PAST doping not that they're racing today doped. I'd assume that they're tested and viewed as clean, particularly the Garmin guys.

Do you follow Lance on twitter?

No, he blocked me for daring to suggest that getting his team to stop on the final day of the tour to change kit was disrespectful to the winner of the tour. The last day is the winners day, and his hijacking of the media coverage was pretty low

So, if they strip him of his titles, is the second placed person also likely to have been doping?

My feeling is yes.

if you look at actually who came second its a resounding yes.. Most of them have admitted or been convicted...

it was so much better in the old days when cyclists were real men and only took coke, amphetamines and alcohol to improved their speed and hopped on the odd bus

Lance has the best tweets.

LOL at realman

Lance has the best tweets.

no way. they belong to NY velocity of toto fame.

Lance has the best tweets

Particularly when he slammed a bloke about to go under the knife to cut out a tumour but who, oddly, didn't want anyone to buy him a Livestrong bracelet.

I can't believe Lance is doing ironman.

So, if they strip him of his titles, is the second placed person also likely to have been doping?

My feeling is yes.

[url= ]Interesting chart of Armstrong TdF top 10s showing known dopers[/url] - riders in grey have been busted or otherwise closely implicated at some time (not necessarily in that year's Tour though).

No, he blocked me for daring to suggest that getting his team to stop on the final day of the tour to change kit was disrespectful to the winner of the tour.

the race organizers made them change,

they didnt set off, change and then change back,

they set off in the changed kit and had to change back

the winner of that tour cheated anyway

2.5 pages added in the last 4 hours, good work chaps and chapesses.
Are we any closer to an answer or am I still going to have to wait for an official verdict?

I can't believe Lance is doing ironman.

Is this a gay porn flick?

Bobsleigh.

I can't believe Lance is doing ironman.

He's not. Banned.

[img] [/img]

That's a pretty cool livestrong helmet.

Lance has already had his legacy tainted, in many peoples eyes he will never been seen as the greatest cyclist of all time (even though he is), surely for the anti Lance groups this is enough? Time to stop the witch hunt and move on FFS

Yeah right. drugs or no drugs the guy isn't fit to clean Merckx or Hinault's shoes.

The bottom line is what is the motivation for all the people people who have come forward to testify against him? Read into it, the UCI was/is rotten to the core and Armstrong was totally immersed in it. He had the most prolific performance enhancing durg doctor in the business working with him even after he was given a lifetime ban from cycling. He knew positive tests against him could be swept under the rug just like they were in the Tour of Switzerland. He was directly and indirectly worth a lot of money to the UCI.

If people like Landis and Hamilton can be thrown under the bus then Armstrong absolutely should be too.

Do you never get bored with this?

Followed by Hinault, de Vlaeminck, Coppi, and then Bartoli, Le Mond and then Kelly.

I'm faintly (that is, just a little bit) puzzled why these riders are placed on a pedestal when they won their tours in a time of widespread doping. Why is that? Is it that we don't like to stick the boot into old men? Is it that we simply don't like brash Yanks with "go get em" attitude? I'm genuinely puzzles by this.

My own heroes are Hinault & Indurain - absolute machines in my eyes. Was indurain a doper? He was/is a physical freak with a massively high lung and heart volume, but even then, did he dope?

Why is the focus on Armstrong so much? Why do we care? I just love watching the tour, and couldn't give a flying **** if they're all or none on dope - I still love the sport and spectacle.

Main reason is the others has some style or panache IMHO
LA was like a machine in the TdF but he rarely even competed in the other grand tours and never won any bar the TdF, never won and day races or classics etc ...this does limit his legacy for those who follow cycling beyond the TdF. He is the greatest at the TdF but not even close to the greatest of all time

Re why do we forgive them the doping [ not all did on that post iirc] - is it because they have not built a legacy and multi billion industry around their image selling the dream of them and all that jazz whilst promoting cancer surviving by being paid 200 k a time to appear at events ?...LA built the pedestal he stands atop and many perceive it to be one built on utter BS rather than it being about the bike.
if he said I worked my arse of but I did what everyone else in the peleton did and I still beat them then fair enough ...his message is nothing like that at all.

[url= http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/lance-armstrong-the-end/ ]http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/lance-armstrong-the-end/[/url]

[img] [/img]

UCI have confirmed that no one has currently been given a 6 month suspension. The leak appears to have come from Bruyneel as he writes for the paper that printed the story of Hincapie et al getting 6 month bans.....just further distraction tactics from the Lance camp.

Thats not to say that they wont be getting the bans at some point in the near future though. (I'd imagine that they will announce it after le Tour though)

Why is the focus on Armstrong so much? Why do we care? I just love watching the tour, and couldn't give a flying **** if they're all or none on dope - I still love the sport and spectacle.

It is a very good question. I can only answer for myself.

With regard to the historic riders, I think the difference was that the drugs of choice allowed them to overcome pain rather actually enhance the performance and there would be a payback for using them. What we have got to remember is that cycling was certainly then a poor man's sport and the pay was very low. Half the time they took the drugs simply to stay awake when driving between events. It was a very tough life.

EPO changed all that and as it was performance enhancing, I came to love the tour during the Indurain era, my guess is that he took drugs but it is only a guess. However, he is a very reserved man who achieved what he did and then has gone on to live a relatively quiet life. Or to put it another way, he was arrogant on the bike but not off it.

I think that provides a huge contrast with Lance Armstrong, I could write for hours on this, but suffice to say people question miracles now more than they did before - witness the religious threads.

the article from that pic is very good

That an entire generation of cycling has turned out to be deeply tainted is beyond doubt. From the early 1990s through to really quite recently, you have to ask yourself how big race winners did it. Some have tested positive, or have confessed to doping (when trotting out the “never tested positive” line, it’s worth considering that David Millar, Ivan Basso, Jan Ullrich and Bjarne Riis, to take a few examples, never tested positive).

Blood boosting, either by transfusions or ‘Edgar Allen Poe’ [peleton slang for EPO], give such an unfair advantage to some riders that what results from their usage is not sport. Apart from the fact that such high climbing speeds as were being achieved from the mid-1990s onwards effectively deaden any tactical interest or finesse, these doping techniques aren’t democratic. It’s not the case that the same hierarchy exists with doped riders and non-doped riders – we often hear that it doesn’t matter if everybody is cheating because the strongest riders win anyway. Some riders gain more of an advantage than others from blood manipulation, Bjarne Riis being just one striking example.

Michele Ferrari, Armstrong’s old coach and one of the six defendants in the USADA action, is on the record as talking about the Texan being able to express a sustained power output of 6.7 watts per kilogram of body weight when he was winning the Tour.

The late Aldo Sassi, who was respected as one of the best cycling coaches and whose reputation was spotless, concluded that a sustained 6.2 watts per kilo was probably the limit of human achievement under normal physiological conditions. Unpredictable and variables, such as length of effort, would skew the numbers a little, but figures above 6 are freakish – the absolute limit of human achievement. 6.0 would win a Grand Tour these days (Sassi was quoted in the New York Times as saying that in the 2009 Giro, only one rider – Denis Menchov – got above six). 6.7 is impossible. It’s over 11 per cent more than 6.0, in an elite area of performance where the margins between riders are impossibly thin. It would be the equivalent of a long jumper jumping 9.93 metres (Mike Powell’s world record is 8.95 metres, and that was a pretty freakish jump).

Armstrong rode up Alpe d’Huez in 37-36 in the 2004 Tour de France, one second behind Marco Pantani’s record (although there is debate about the measurements based on where the climb actually starts and finishes). The fastest time last year was 41-21, by Samuel Sanchez. That’s a difference of just under 10 per cent.

Sorry, USADA not UCI...

[img] [/img]

Or perhaps there were just more talented riders in the Tour back then ? It's not impossible. I mean the standard of XC racing has dropped considerably since I retired. I could have kicked any of those girls racing today NO PROBLEM in my time (holds up sarcasm sign).

You can't make a valid comparison.

Look; is he a wrong un' or not? could we reach a consensus please. I am off on holiday on Sunday and need new Sunnies, as happens local shop,cycleworld, has livestrong Jawbones going cheap. Don't want to buy them if it means customs are going to tar me with the same brush and rubber glove.

@duckman. you're quackers 😀

What I hate is the duplicity and hypocrisy about it all, the trial by media.

Whether Armstrong doped or not is almost immaterial, it's actually become a bit of a distraction to the main show of "lets destroy Armstrong by any means possible".

No-one else has been subjected to the same witch-hunt. Known dopers, people who've tested positive and/or confessed are quietly left to get on with their lives. OK, you can argue that Armstrong is a bit more public with his LiveStrong stuff and a lot richer thanks to that and to his years as the highest profile cyclist in the world - was that all built on a lie? The investigation seemed to suggest otherwise when it was dropped but then of course you've got the conspiracy theorists saying it was dropped due to high level political interference.

I don't think the full truth is ever going to be known and it's become a real mess of accusation, counter claim and conspiracy from all sides. 🙁

I can't believe everyone's going on about lance!

You should be more pissed of that the USDA did this right as the tour started. I can't believe so many of you are not more pissed about that.

He may be guilty he may not. But why now?

Don't argue about something none of you know nothing about other than stuff you've read. Don't be so niev.

binners - Member
Do you never get bored with this?

No they never get bored as it fills the gaps between winning their own bike races.

Don't argue about something none of you know nothing about other than stuff you've read. Don't be so niev.

quote of the day. possibly the week.

No-one else has been subjected to the same witch-hunt. Known dopers, people who've tested positive and/or confessed are quietly left to get on with their lives.

Your wakeboard may be on the wrong way round, but this is most lucid.

You should be more pissed of that the USDA did this right as the tour started. I can't believe so many of you are not more pissed about that.

Oh that's standard practice! USADA know full well that if they'd have done this back in January, everyone who did actually notice would have gone "oh that, again?!" and then forgotten about it. It's Chapter 1 in "how to accuse someone of doping" - wait til the week preceding the Tour.

By doing it this way, they're guaranteed the publicity: you can leave a bored journalist with just enough info to go searching and it can be threaded into most Tour stories somehow and you end up with the media doing your work for you.

Much like the 45-minute claim over Iraq. One line is a made-up dossier seized on by the media, next thing the entire world thinks that Saddam can nuke the world in 45 minutes. Trial by media.

What I hate is the duplicity and hypocrisy about it all, the trial by media.

If you choose to live your life in the media, it can come back to haunt you. Ullrich just walked away and kept quiet but his case went through this year and bizarrely he got a heavier sentence than Contador because his ban wasn't back dated whereas AC's was.

Maybe they want maximum publicity to prove that the system is bigger than anyone? Whatever happens if you go after him it will always be a big story.

next thing the entire world thinks that Saddam can nuke the world in 45 minutes.

what will some of the experts on "lance is guilty" actually do with their lives once he is/if found guilty.
try looking at the system rather than pinning it all on one guy. lets get it changed so cheating in such a systematic way can't happen again.

No-one else has been subjected to the same witch-hunt. Known dopers, people who've tested positive and/or confessed are quietly left to get on with their lives.

There is also the feeling that he is the one who got away - many of those found guilty also never tested positive - LA actually has at least once and probably more often. Look how hard it was to get Bertie done for example so lets call it progress as it was still quicker than getting LA.

pay attention at the back.

(at MT)

Did anyone notice he also WORE A HELMET!! idiot

(just trying to keep the interest going)

Does anyone think Emily Batty might dope?

Would anyone care?

Realman - do you think pictures would help with an answer to that?

I can't see how they could hurt.

more reading, better than an insight from Hora.

[url= http://fraudbytes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/lance-armstrong-investigation-what-do.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+Fraudbytes+%28FraudBytes%29 ]http://fraudbytes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/lance-armstrong-investigation-what-do.html?[/url]

more reading, better than an insight from Hora.

What a sport road racing shows itself to be to outsiders. What a cheerleader it is with such protagonists.

I remember stopping road riding at 17 hating club politics. Now its not 'about the bike' but about denigrating the sports highest achievers at every turn.

If Lance wasnt so abrasive in his defence/in general would he have attracted the accusations?

[img] [/img]

I was going to post, but I'm to drunk 😀

go on then, the problem I have is he's so quick to try and discredit witnesses, authorities etc etc. There's no discussion. it's "they are all liars" first the cyclists who spoke up, and now that his friends have, he tries to discredit the way the USADA got their info ( the 6 month ban looks to be untrue, possibly from Bruneel, a regular contributor to the paper).

As that article says, where's the disbelief and hurt that his best friends have lied about him? there's none, which to me is very strange indeed. just more attempts to discredit the information they have. The longer this goes on, the more he is looking guilty, and desperately looking for a way out IMO...

Now its not 'about the bike' but about denigrating the sports highest achievers at every turn.

And thats bollocks. Cavendish, Wiggins, Boonen, Gilbert, Cancellara, where are the stories about these high achievers? nowhere, because there's nothing to see.

If Lance wasnt so abrasive in his defence/in general would he have attracted the accusations?

What is hard to get, its not that he is abrasive, its not that I dont like him, its not that he is not awesome. The problem is , that to some, he cheated. He has then built a temple to all things LA on a lie - he did it all with will power and with a little yellow band you can achieve great things just like he did on a bike and with nothing else. To those who are not road cyclists, like Hora, they view him as some sort of super human demi god who can do no wrong. He built the pedestal that hora and RM look up to on this image and those that purport to know may wish to see him knocked off it.

If he does get found guilty, then of the five riders to win the tour five times (ie arguably the greatest ever), there would be what, one left who hasn't been shown to dope at some point? Positive if people are eventually caught, but pretty sad for cycling in general, especially as most of them are still idolised despite the drugs.

it's not sad for cycling, hopefully it will prove that manipulative egotistical cheaters can no longer use their money and fame to coerce those who run the sport into thinking that it's better to maintain the charade for the good of the sport.
cycling needs dopers like Millar to set an example, it doesn't need dopers like armstrong. every time i hear of some 30+ rider failing a test it doesn't sadden me, i just think that's another one caught, a young rider getting caught is a different matter it's for their and cycling sake that armstrong needs to stop being a false idol and become a pariah.