[Closed] Still Blindly Defending him Hora?

I still very much doubt he will ever admit to anything and this will rumble on forever.

So....all of the riders of the day were doping?
And Lance still beat them?
Even if Lance was doping (and he probably was), he was still the best cyclist for the period he was winning, which was a long time.

Why does the man get so much stick? He beat cancer and then carried on winning stuff FFS.
It is/was a filthy sport. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I trust you're not a judge, warton. 😐
I saw another newspaper article with a photo of a London bus on the moon. It must have been true.

Am I right in thinking Armstrong was rigorously tested and came up negative - over and over again? Weren't there random tests? Presuming he's a 'drug cheat' how did he get away with it for so long?

Are lots of bitter ex team mates testifying the best evidence or just hearsay? I would have thought Lances lawyer could pull them to pieces .

Even if Lance was doping (and he probably was), he was still the best cyclist for the period he was winning, which was a long time.

that doesn't necessarily make him the best cyclist, it could just be that he was the best cheat.

Here we go again.....

In the words of Vic & Bob - you wouldn't let it lie!!!

Are we back here again?? As all other posts conclude it will either end up with Conviction & Denial & Appeal after Appeal
or abandoned again due to lack of credible evidence again again.

There is no smoke without fire, sometimes there is fire without smoke and sometimes there is nothing.

Rambling now!! but this one will never end until we get a time machine

That article says nothing!

I trust you're not a judge, warton

Are lots of bitter ex team mates testifying the best evidence or just hearsay

No, I'm not a judge 😀 But my point is they're not bitter team mates, some of those names are / were his best friends in the sport, Levi especially. wherever Lance went, Levi went, racing, training, eating, holidays, you name it. and he is testifying against him. That, IMO is very, very damning for LA. also, they are testifying and getting banned, albeit for 6 months.

If 10 people say they saw a man kill a man, and there are gunpowder traces on his clothes will he be found guilty? Yes. same scenario, different context. 10 people will testify he doped, blood samples from 1999, 2008 and 2009 (at least) back this up.

regarding

Am I right in thinking Armstrong was rigorously tested and came up negative

He was tested by the UCI, who he 'donated' money too, he is in business with the UCI vice president. The UCI is also responsible for promoting the sport, conflict of interest maybe? also there were traces of synthetic EPO in 1999 samples.

No, I'm not a judge But my point is they're not bitter team mates, some of those names are / were his best friends in the sport, Levi especially. wherever Lance went, Levi went, racing, training, eating, holidays, you name it. and he is testifying against him. That, IMO is very, very damning for LA. also, they are testifying and getting banned, albeit for 6 months.

[i]according to[/i]

[i]are said to have[/i]

I'm not defending him, but I'll wait until it's reporting of fact, rather than speculation

Or is it a case of testify and get away with a 6 month ban late in your career or be in deep sh1t yourself ?

Don't hate the player, hate the game

I hate them all

anyone with a link to last weeks thread? the one where hora and a few others look a bit stupid and the newby blind believers with little knowledge of the sport get a crash course?

google is a powerful tool, try landis, ashenden, Simeoni, le-mond and lance armstrong doping for starters.

Doping/cheating is all part of cycling's charm

Haven't read ther report, just that artile linked to on cycling news.

Seems strange that the four riders have admitted doping but are being allowed to continue with the season unaffected. Makes it look more and more like a witch hunt.

mikewsmith - Are we back here again?? As all other posts conclude it will either end up with Conviction & Denial & Appeal after Appeal
or abandoned again due to lack of credible evidence again again

I think this ^^^^ hits the nail on the head.

TBH, given that the article states that Hincapie, Leipheimer, Vande Velde and Zabriskie "opted not to be considered for the Olympics", it smacks very much of them copping a plea in return for testifying against Armstrong.

Dodgy stuff

they are testifying and getting banned, albeit for 6 months.

And a ban that's being suspended to the end of the current season so they can race the tour/vuelta etc... so no ban at all really...

Judge holds vials of blood showing confirmed doping for Armstrong

Until I see that. Sorry keep the press conjecture coming.

anyone with a link to last weeks thread?

Can anyone link to the FBI/Armstrong investigation thread? Looks like a few STW'ers need a reminder of deja Vu....

On which page, will everyone arrive at a consensus on Lance?

Doping/cheating is all part of cycling[s]'s charm[/s]

Going back to the thread title - is Hora his lawyer? And has he lost his sight?

all he needed to do was do what the rest of them did. every single US Postal rider spoke to the committee accept him. If he had done that (no matter what he'd said), and stopped being so pig headed about the whole thing I doubt very much we'd be where we are now.

Looks like they are all plea bargaining: go lightly on me and I'll stick one into Lance.

Now that Peter Sagan, remember you heard it here first. 🙄

Even if they do stick this one on him, it makes USADA look contemptible to allow major names to ride on after admitting doping.

don simon - Member
Now that Peter Sagan, remember you heard it here first

Oddly, have been thinking the same thing.

Oddly, have been thinking the same thing.

I still think they should have an "open" category where you can take what the hell you want. Same for the olympics, and especially pro snowboarding.

Judge holds vials of blood showing confirmed doping for Armstrong

Until I see that. Sorry keep the press conjecture coming.

there will be no judge/jury/lawyer/day in court. it's a usada panel that all olympic and non olympic U.S. professional athletes have agreed to obey by their rules. Lance wants his day in court so his legal team can get busy discrediting witnesses but he has agreed to play by usada rules. the only court he will end up in is CAS but he probably doesn't have mates there unlike the UCI.
this was all explained for the lance fans last week.

I think you're all just jealous that he's more awesome than you.

surely not as awesome as Surfmat?

Am I right in thinking Armstrong was rigorously tested and came up negative - over and over again? Weren't there random tests? Presuming he's a 'drug cheat' how did he get away with it for so long?

Just like Marion Jones

surely not as awesome as Surfmat?

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On which page, will everyone arrive at a consensus on Lance?

Doping/cheating is all part of [s]cycling's charm[/s] all sports

Only cycling is about the only one to try to do anything about it.

Doping/cheating is all part of cycling's charm

ie none 🙁

or perhaps cycling has the worst track record - ther eis a long tradition of drug cheating within the sport and , it could be argued, has been an integral part of th3e sport.
Other sports have had cheats but I suspect none as endemic as cycling.
I bet there have been times when the majority of the peleton have been on drugs and all the top 10…sad but true

I don’t really understand why people still cling to the belief he was clean…it would be nice if it was true but the evidence is really mounting up – many other known drug cheats never failed a drug test – we all know the drugs he is meant to be taking could not be tested by a drugs test so it is a mute point to bring it up that he never failed a drug test – he did but he was allowed - some cream for saddle sores iirc and a dubious one with a large donation that seems to have disappeared.

this whole saga has to end sometime, how investigations have there been now? None of which could come to a verdict of guilty, no matter how much they WANTED to find him guilty. Even the US government with unlimited legal funds couldn't find him guilty. Now, I'm a pro Lance supporter, but if I wasn't then I'd be of the opinion that all these cases against him are only adding to his credibility.

Lance has already had his legacy tainted, in many peoples eyes he will never been seen as the greatest cyclist of all time (even though he is), surely for the anti Lance groups this is enough? Time to stop the witch hunt and move on FFS

So Armstrongs been found guilty then?

Doping/cheating is all part of cycling's charm
ie [s]none [/s] loads and loads

how investigations have there been now? None of which could come to a verdict of guilty, no matter how much they WANTED to find him guilty. Even the US government with unlimited legal funds couldn't find him guilty.

there have been, err, NO investigations into Armstrong. Get your facts right. The last proposed investigation, undertaken by the ADF agency had evidence, enough to prosecute, but the head of the agency pulled the plug on it, with no reason, and refused point blank to discuss it. quite a few ADF agents resigned because of it.

FBI?

So what was the US case against him?

FBI?

Haven't we done all of this before? [i]Several[/i] times?

Where did it get last time? Nowhere. So, why not go and do something more useful instead, folks!

don simon - Member
Now that Peter Sagan, remember you heard it here first
Oddly, have been thinking the same thing.

Look on it as Lance's legacy to the sport

this whole saga has to end sometime

no it doesn't. 😉

Judge holds vials of blood showing confirmed doping for Armstrong

Until I see that. Sorry keep the press conjecture coming.

I'm with Hora on this one. They're trying to charge him on nothing but presumption so far. No actual evidence.
Once this 'vial of blood' has been tested and it's proven, then I'll be convinced.

The fact that they're planning on letting self admitted dopers ride the Tour and Vuelta this year before banning them at the end of the season, when they are coincidentally retiring from the sport, makes it look like nothing more than a hatchet job aimed at Armstrong.

Kinda off on a tangent.....

I lived in the area at the sametime that the Ripper murdered a street worker.

We are both white and have a yorkshire accent.

Possibly some of the above posters could convict me as being the one who did it.......did any of you work on the Police force that investigated those crimes? 😆

**blindingly stupid analogy of the weeeeeek**

Lance was about 10% stronger than the top guys these days and mountains were being climbed much faster in his era than today. Virtually all his contemporaries (many of whom never failed a test) have been found/ adimtted to taking drugs and now his team mates are admitting to to being on the juice.

If you think he was riding clean you are blind.

couple of things that people seem to be missing.

This case is not aimed solely at armstrong (his press are spinning this as a personal vendetta) the case is about supply and use of illegal drugs in sport with from memory 5 people (incl LA< ferrari & bruynell) charged armstrong is one of them, and also relates to incidents that took place as late as 2008.

there are 10 witnesses who testified against the five people confirming what they witnessed, Hincappe, vaughters, leiheimer and verde are supposedly among them, although reading vaughter tweets he seems happy to pretty much admit this, and oddly has also anounced that he nor anyone in the team will be serving a 6 month ban, which seems to indicate that it was armstrong's 'team' that leaked the story.

The federal investigation was to investigate whether or not federal money (via usps) was used in the sale and buying of drugs, even if LA had stood up and said I used epo everyday for 10 years that would have been useless in theor investigation as it didnt prove it was bought with government money. It's USADA's job to investigate doping in sport which they are doing.

Personally I think LA's back is against the wall and his only defence now will be to discredit the witnesses, todays leak seems to be the start of that.

So, why not go and do something more useful instead, folks!

Like your good self 😉

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I think the whole competitive sporting "I'm better than wot you are" thing is childish and elitist. Doping is just a symptom.

Basically, there's 3... No, 4 possibilities:

Lance didn't cheat, everyone else cheated.
Lance cheated, everyone else cheated.
Lance cheated, no-one else cheated.
And (I almost forgot) no-one cheated.

3 combinations in 4 say he's either unimaginably awesome or merely the best by a very very long way.

Even if Lance was doping (and he probably was), he was still the best [s]cyclist[/s] at taking performance enhancing drugs for the period he was winning, which was a long time.

FTFY

Lance was about 10% stronger than the top guys these days and mountains were being climbed much faster in his era than today. Virtually all his contemporaries (many of whom never failed a test) have been found/ adimtted to taking drugs and now his team mates are admitting to to being on the juice.

If you think he was riding clean you are blind.

My tuppence-worth...

I don't agree with the "everyone else was doping, therefore Lance must have been in order to beat them".

Many of his rivals have been proven to have doped and yet there's no such evidence against Lance despite probably the most exhaustive testing any athlete has been subject to.

Every now and again an athlete arises who dominates their sporting rivals ... Usain Bolt, Pete Sampras (more recently, Federer?), Kelly Slater & Layne Beachley, Craig Alexander (IronMan), Michael Phelps, Tiger Woods, Tony Hawk, Wayne Gretzky ...

Or, they were/are all doped up to the eye-balls as well ...

Cantador holds the rate of climb record and the riders haven't slowed down.

Armstrong tested positive for cortisone in 1999 but the UCI accepted an ante-dated medical certificate against its own rules. It's a positive test whichever way you look at it so Armstong has been lying ever since.

Many of his rivals have been proven to have doped and yet there's no such evidence against Lance despite probably the most exhaustive testing any athlete has been subject to.

I love it when people believe the Lance PR machine, without doing any other reading on the topic.

didnt tiger woods have laser eye surgery to make his vision and depth perception super human which is essentially the doping of the golf world?

I dunno about Dave Zabriskie man, that dude's weird.

Lance didn't cheat, everyone else cheated.
Lance cheated, everyone else cheated.
[s]Lance cheated, no-one else cheated.[/s]
[s]And (I almost forgot) no-one cheated.[/s]

Well we know for a fact that some people at least cheated, so only 2 scenarios could be correct.

3 combinations in 4 say he's either unimaginably awesome or merely the best by a very very long way.

Actually either of the only 2 possible scenarios indicate that Lance is unimaginable awesome.
Some people hate awesome.

in many peoples eyes he will never been seen as the greatest cyclist of all time (even though he is),

no he isn't Eddie Merckx is.

Going back to your original point about his allies grassing him up.
You seem to have added 2 and 2 and got 5.
the report says
"George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer, Christian Vande Velde and David Zabriskie are said to have given evidence in the USADA investigation which has charged Armstrong with doping."

given evidence and all supplied evidence of wrong doing are not the samething.
It is just a record that they have been called before USADA and given a statement.
The contents of which we don't know.

So far the case against him by USADA has been a lot of smoke and mirrors. Two big PR machines going head to head.

Basically, there's 3... No, 4 possibilities:

Lance didn't cheat, everyone else cheated.
Lance cheated, everyone else cheated.
Lance cheated, no-one else cheated.
And (I almost forgot) no-one cheated.

3 combinations in 4 say he's either unimaginably awesome or merely the best by a very very long way.

This

Only option 3 has been proven to be wrong as a load of cheats that Lance beat have owned up.

So whichever way you look at it Lance's repuatation as a great cyclist isn't tarnished. But you have to be pretty naive to think he didn't dope.

"I love it when people believe the [s]Lance[/s] USADA PR machine, without doing any other reading on the topic."
FTFY

Nah Dave Zabiskie's alright, he's pretty cool.

[i]didnt tiger woods have laser eye surgery to make his vision and depth perception super human which is essentially the doping of the golf world?[/i]

Only in that golf where you hit the ball with your eyes

....and yet we say nothing about certain UK athletes who go from being pretty good to world beaters, smashing records by considerable margins (a give away perhaps?), at a certain age and train in obscure locations.....but THEY ARE clean obviously.

Have you seen Dave Zabriskie's moustache?

Why, has he lost it?

DezB - damn, coffee on the keyboard moment. Why are the old ones so funny?!?

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in many peoples eyes he will never been seen as the greatest cyclist of all time (even though he is),
no he isn't Eddie Merckx is.

Followed by Hinault, de Vlaeminck, Coppi, and then Bartoli, Le Mond and then Kelly.

Plus Lance is annoying as hell. Can people go to prison for that?

When did Kevin Kline take up cycling?

but if I wasn't then I'd be of the opinion that all these cases against him are only adding to his credibility.

this is the problem to some supporters the belief in his awesomesness is messianic and cannot be tarnished no matter what happens

Lance has already had his legacy tainted, in many peoples eyes he will never been seen as the greatest cyclist of all time (even though he is), surely for the anti Lance groups this is enough? Time to stop the witch hunt and move on FFS

Well if he was a drugs cheat that may explain why he was the greatest ..witch hunt is just you repeating you think he is innocent personally I am waiting for justice to be done and he may be the greatest TdF rider but he is not tjher greatest cyclist

blindingly stupid analogy of the weeeeeek

You flatter I him it is an idiotic and moronic statement

[b]Lance was about 10% stronger than the top guys these days and mountains were being climbed much faster in his era than today. Virtually all his contemporaries (many of whom never failed a test) have been found/ adimtted to taking drugs and now his team mates are admitting to to being on the juice.
If you think he was riding clean you are blind.[/b]

THIS a million times this – look at cuddles he raced and how far down was he in the era ? He has ot got quickr everyone else has got slower. SO either drugs or LA being seriously awesome to the power of sic?

Cantador holds the rate of climb record and the riders haven't slowed down

What climb? Not Alpe D’Huez that is Pantani who also never failed a drugs test and is therefore clean 🙄 . This would be a better argument if you had someone who was not a convicted drugs cheat

"Pantani who also never failed a drugs test"

Really! are you talking about Marco or another Pantani?