[Closed] Standards and Apple Standards

Ha! Nobbers... 🙂

iolo said;
Why nobbers?

Because their desire to be different is just for the sake of it. They seemingly have no desire to make things easier for their consumer base. It makes sense to standardise chargers.

I'm all for being different but sometimes Apple are just too cool for school to the point that they seem spoilt imho...

The curse of modern tech is all the blummin chargers you need. It would be great and so much less wasteful if they were cross-compatible.

I can see exactly why apple do it but,............nobbers. 🙂

The iphone port passes far more information through it than a usb port is capable of, ie high quality audio.

Its not just being different for the sake of it, it actually has a use, of course other manufacturers are happy to accept lower quality options then try and paint apple as the outsider.

Charging is easy, its just a usb adapter.

High quality audio can be done in less than 6mbps, which is what USB 1 can support. USB 2 would easily handle anything a iPhone could want to do.

It's Apple being different for the sake of it. I imagine it has a lot to do with docking and keeping the docks exclusive to apple devices.

I imagine it has a lot to do with docking and keeping the docks exclusive to apple devices.

Good point really my missus went looking for something to play music from, came back with the conclusion that she needed as I-pod and a dock/speaker. 10 mins later we had a mini hifi with 3.5mm and USB inputs for a hell of a lot less. Imagine if all the [s]ipod dock stations[/s] speakers with a silly plug on were USB.....

not sure on the new 19 pin jobby, but the older Apple connection had a line level analogue audio output, not sure if that could be done over USB

Apple really are a greedy bunch of <ladybits>.

not sure if that could be done over USB

Probably not, but there are other technologies now that Apple could bee using their significant resources and budget to invest in, improve or maybe just adopt.

A basic digital to analogue converter in the dock would suffice though, I should think.

A basic digital to analogue converter in the dock would suffice though, I should think.

yep

I would guess the real reason for the connector is that it allows them to have a whole market of products made which are specifically marketed as being iPod compatible.

Its not apple that need the common standard - their phones and iPods have such a large market share the don't need the economy or the limitation of sharing a common parts bucket with other manufacturers, particularly as they have such a small product line. All the other other phone manufacturers are marketing a few dozen different phones each but are collectively inhabiting a fraction of the market place. Its their choice to collaborate, not apple's to be different.

Its not apple that need the common standard - their phones and iPods have such a large market share the don't need the economy or the limitation of sharing a common parts bucket with other manufacturers

As far as I know, you can't even charge an iphone with an ipod charger.... or at least thats the experience I have when trying to charge me birds iphone on my ipod(80gb classic model) car charger...
It may be different with current models(lets hope so huh?)

They don't even appear to share a 'common parts bucket' with themselves!.... 😀

crusky there ^ makes a good point (IMO). The same charger that did my first iPhone, still does my second. Mrs deadly's had three...same charger all the way has done each of them. It would do an iTouchy too if we had one.

My man drawer full of old chargers is pretty much a different charger for every (around 5 I think) SonyErricshite and the last microscopically thin (and thus easily bent) charger for the greatest piece of shit of a phone I've ever owned, a Nokia N84 8GB.

As far as I know, you can't even charge an iphone with an ipod charger

My man drawer full of old chargers is pretty much a different charger for every (around 5 I think) SonyErricshite and the last microscopically thin (and thus easily bent) charger for the greatest piece of shit of a phone I've ever owned, a Nokia N84 8GB.

Exactly, so lets standardise them all Apple! 😀

Exactly, so lets standardise them all Apple!

Amen to that. After all, their stuff just works. 😉

Also.... mini usb has always been there. Calling it a standard is just that, a name. Any of the manufacturers can choose to use it, but non are compelled to.

Current Apple chargers do indeed come in two forms, the earlier charging-over-firewire versions and the most recent versions; older ones won't charge newer devices, which is sometimes a pain (this seems more common with devices that will "work" in docking stations and the like but won't charge from them...)

Personally one of the main things I don't like about our Android phones is that while they do everything and more than our ipods do, you can't get docks for them so if we wanted to use them as music players we'd have to fart around with cables into headphone sockets, stereos with aux ports and whatnot.

While it is a little more faff having to carry round an ipod wire and a micro-USB wire for everything else, I can see why apple want to keep using a common dockable connector and form factor rather than just a micro-USB one.

This [url= http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/seven-reasons-im-glad-apples-killing-the-dock-connector/13150 ]ZDnet post[/url] suggests it's a 19-pin microUSB port.

I don't see a 'new dock connector' as a problem anyway. lots of newer 'dock' devices now connect via WiFi or Bluetooth for music playback. For most of us there's the pragmatic 3.5mm stereo jack solution to this non-problem.

For the current dock ports, there's a simple micro/mini USB to Apple Dock connector adapter available.

With the current vogue for manufacturers to offer no charger & instead give a USB cable for charging, the adapter landfill problem should subside soon: a case of technology solving the problem before politics can move again. Apple's iPhone charger, with its USB connection, is pretty handy for charging other devices with a USB cable e.g. PS3 controllers & other phones.

It does seem an odd move, but I guess it must make sense to Apple. Perhaps it allows them to control the thickness & mounting of the connector in the iPhone & so might be part of slimming the next iPhones, iPads & iPods. It'll be (slightly) interesting to see what this rumoured 'new dock connector' turns out to be.

Personally one of the main things I don't like about our Android phones is that while they do everything and more than our ipods do, you can't get docks for them so if we wanted to use them as music players we'd have to fart around with cables into headphone sockets, stereos with aux ports and whatnot.

This would change if charging points/docks were standardised. I don't really care which standard wins through, but it would be nice if there was one(I do realise there will never be...).

However, having owned several ipods, I have always found the docking station element a little unreliable and they have worn over time and developed connection faults. The large connectors are also a little 'clumpy' imho, especially with Apples usually sleek appearance.

The port is also quite a large opening in the unit and a magnet for dust and 3rd-degree pocket lint. The micro usb is much neater really, less of an opening but still, not ideal.

Anyway, something which works for everything would free up some much needed space in the man-drawer.

I don't see that there's a problem. lots of newer 'dock' devices now connect via WiFi or Bluetooth for music playback. And for most of us there's the pragmatic 3.5mm stereo jack solution to this non-problem.

Not a solution if you want to charge and dock/play at the same time...

Personally one of the main things I don't like about our Android phones is that while they do everything and more than our ipods do, you can't get docks for them

All those apple dock gadgets though aren't made by apple, they're made by other manufactures who see a profit in making aftermarket bits for a large group of consumers who all have the same phone. With android phones theres fewer of them in total, even if they have the same connector they will all have slightly different form factors - making and aftermarket gizmo for them is a complete waste of time

With android phones theres fewer of them in total, even if they have the same connector the will all have slightly different form factors - making and aftermarket gizmo for them is a complete waste of time

The OP linked to two articles about standardisation, you seem to be arguing FOR Apple but at the same time reinforcing the point that standardisation would be a good thing... 🙂

I suspect the market for docks could be limited in the future: wireless connections seem to be getting more popular.

With android phones theres fewer of them in total,

[img] [/img]

Umm - Android is the biggest selling smartphone OS at the mo. 2:1 over iOS in Q1 2012.

ETA - though naturally with more manufacturers each individual device will sell fewer units than a particular iPhone model.

The OS matters not a jot.

And the cheap stuff is always going to sell more.

And the cheap stuff is always going to sell more.

🙂

It's like this. Anyone who knows about the OSI 7 layer model should understand but I'll try to explain.

Think about it in layers. First you have the physical stuff, what connector to use, where to position it, what voltages to use. Then you have things like what types of signal, data, analogue, basic switch signals, eg on/off. Once you've agreed that you can start to think about what you'll transfer, audio, video, control signals, packet data? Now what format of audio signal? Raw (more data), mp3, or something else, what video signal, what switching signal format etc. Now for video we have a whole can of worms because, well today that's just how video is, a mess! Do we even want to go there, it's sounding tricky so let's leave it open (DLNA anyone?). Now, how do we present it all? Do we have a two way signalling process for audio or just let the consumer figure it out (ie lose rewind/ff). Ok, so some of this stuff can be off the shelf, but you still need to decide.

Now try to keep this up to date with changing standards and emerging technologies. Now try to agree it with competing businesses whilst fighting off law suits from some company who did a half baked implementation and now can't adopt your standard (toys out of pram).

I'm sure this is all possible but the big players need to do it, and why bother when you can make more profit with less effort to the detriment of your consumers...?

As a consumer; it's a plug. Some plugs are different shapes.

mini usb has always been there. Calling it a standard is just that, a name. Any of the manufacturers can choose to use it, but non are compelled to.

I don't know if you've noticed but [i]micro [/i]USB has been the standard socket on the vast majority of phones for a while now. iDevices aside, I can't think of a recent phone which doesn't have one.

The thing that always puzzled me is that to make this happen a large number of manufacturers had to get on board and back it. One of those manufacturers was Apple.

Anyway. The real kick in the plums here isn't "zomg new cable eleventone," it's the fact that, unless there's an adapter, the new must-have iPhone 5 isn't going to work with existing accessories like, say, the expensive docking station audio system you've got.

The other slight point to mention is that the [url= http://www.arcfn.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html ]Apple chargers are really very high quality bits of kit compared to other chargers[/url].

Most mobile chargers a horrible great "wall wart" transformers that run hot all the time.

[img] ?9d7bd4[/img]

Whereas the Apple charger is smaller than most plugs and runs cool to the touch.

[img] [/img]

the expensive docking station audio system you've got.

At least we've got one. 🙂

I don't know if you've noticed but micro USB has been the standard socket on the vast majority of phones for a while now. iDevices aside, I can't think of a recent phone which doesn't have one.

[img] http://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/2402/as-images.apple.com/is/image/AppleInc/MD099?wid=326&hei=326&fmt=jpeg&qlt=95&op_sharpen=0&resMode=bicub&op_usm=0.5,0.5,0,0&iccEmbed=0&layer=comp [/img]

Most mobile chargers a horrible great "wall wart" transformers that run hot all the time

@GrahamS

Google were heading down the right lines with their docks which only charge the phone, and send audio out via Bluetooth. Seemples. As for Apple being the only company to make decent chargers...

[img] [/img]

Or...

[img] [/img]

Got to be honest, though - the magsafe adapter that I have with my Macbook is a thing of beauty and one of the main reasons I'll be buying another Apple laptop when this one dies. Which, annoyingly, it's showing no sign of doing yet despite being dropped repeatedly and zapped by lightning once.

But that Samsung charger...

It's BLACK for crissakes!!!!!!!!!!

Except for...

..companies that had crap chargers for decades and are now playing catch up with Apple's aesthetics. 😉

That Samsung one is a similar size, but miserable looking.
And it doesn't even look like you can detach the cable.

Whole thing is a storm in a tea cup, if you buy Apple stuff you use an Apple charger - no problem. If you buy ANother stuff, you use the charger that came with it - no problem.

Who really cares about a standard for phone sockets?

And best of all... I can use a Kindle charger or my HTC charger with a the Samsung phone 😉
Keep one in the office, one by the bed, 1 cable in the lappy bag.

Now the magsafe *connector* is a work of art, but the charger runs hot hot hot. Seriously hot. Neat of them to actually use a standard figure 8 connector though - so I can have a UK and EU cable at a fraction of the price*

Who cares about prettiness of a mains adapter?

*shame I need it too, cos I gave up getting replacement batteries for my macbook.

Who cares about prettiness of a mains adapter?

My wife.

There's a witch, burn it!!!

Oh its just an apple.

if you buy Apple stuff you use an Apple charger

Not necessarily true - I charge my iDevices from whatever's convenient, which may be the Apple USB charger that came with my phone or may be my PC or my iMac or my car or my USB battery pack...

Surely the main issue with this is whether you can charge the device using USB voltages and currents; beyond that all you need is an appropriate cable or adaptor. The main purpose of the European standard is to get rid of those proprietary voltage adaptors like the old Nokia ones of which I have about half a dozen lying round somewhere, including the one for Mrs R's Nokia phone (which is different from all the previous ones).

best charger standard in the world - the original nokia

for a long time you never had to bother taking a nokia charger anywhere as EVERY house hold had at least 1 - even if there wasnt a nokia phone in the house.

😀

at the moment the equivalent really is the ios adaptor - most folk i know have at least 1 apple product ..... its not really fair to just compare phones sold is it .... its apple products as a whole you need to look at really and im sure the number of apple products sold using the apple connector is larger than android phones sold.

certainly rarely struggle to find an apple charger anywhere - its also easy when you forget it to go to a hotel desk in california and say i forgot my charger there isnt an apple charger in the lost and found is there ......... cue charger for the week 😀

Because their desire to be different is just for the sake of it

Like the French

The point has spectaculalry been missed here.*

The real issue isn't that Apple don't use micro USB but that Apple are changing their dock connector again.

That means that all those accessories that work with existing iDevices... won't work with new iDevices. Last time they did this it wasn't such a big deal as it was pre iPhone but imagine the poo storm when evryone realises their expensive dock will not work with their new iPhone.

[i]*A charging standard is only of very limited benefit now that everything charges from USB voltages. Its only a cable that is required rather than a huge transformer like back in the day. But where the apple dock conector really wins is its standard placement. It is always in the same place on every iphone, ipod, itouch and even ipad. That way it can work as a dock and not just something to plug a cable into. Ever seen a phone that follows the micro USB "standard" that can achive that?[/i]

That means that all those accessories that work with existing iDevices... won't work with new iDevices.

Or more likely they'll issue small adaptors to go between old and new.

Or more likely they'll issue small adaptors to go between old and new.

Did they do that last time? I don't think they did (but am willing to be proven wrong)

No idea, I wasn't a fanboi back then. But there are a LOT more iDevices and docks out there these days, including some that will be hard to change (i.e. built into cars) so I imagine a solution will be offered (if not by Apple then by some enterprising third-party).

Or more likely they'll issue small adaptors to go between old and new

But the idea is to simplify. Who wants to have to buy yet another adaptor for every charging point they have, be that at home, upstairs, office, car etc, etc.

Who really cares about a standard for phone sockets?

Me...
Between my ipod, Android phone, camera, powermonkey, electric toothbush 😀 etc, etc, I have chargers coming out of me ears!
One single charger would be bliss... 8)

they have a choice, they can give the adaptor with new products, or they can sell the adaptor.
which will they choose i wonder?

Who wants to have to buy yet another adaptor for every charging point they have, be that at home, upstairs, office, car etc, etc.

I doubt you'd have to.

Any new standard the Apple come up with will undoubtedly still have USB at the other end of the cable, so (I would imagine) that it'll just plug into all your existing Apple plugs.

I'm just suggesting that for people who have cars & music docks that uses the existing 30-pin doc they'll probably provide a small 30-pin to 9-pin converter (as they did for MicroUSB).

they have a choice, they can give the adaptor with new products, or they can sell the adaptor.
which will they choose i wonder?

Hmm.. tricky..

increase the total price of your product so you can "give" a converter that many people won't need.

Or sell the converter separately as a cheap add-on to support people with legacy docks.

as they did for MicroUSB

Hmmm ... but only for one flavour of MicroUSB, and the less common one at that 🙁

only for one flavour of MicroUSB, and the less common one at that

Que?

Not actually got one. Why is it the "less common" Micro-USB? I didn't know there were flavours.

Incidentally, fact fans might want to glance over the current pin-out spec for the existing 30-pin connector:

http://appledock.mysticlagoon.com/pinouts.html

Audio out, Audio in, Video out (S-Video and Composite), Serial, USB, Firewire and Power

Firewire

Maybe I am talking sh1te 🙁 and confusing microUSB (of which I have no other devices) and miniUSB (of which I have lots).

Did they do that last time?

The higher end docking stations come with a selection of 'adapters' that sit around the connector plug, basically just a plastic moulding which supports the housing of whichever iDevice you're connecting.

I'm just suggesting that for people who have cars & music docks that uses the existing 30-pin doc they'll probably provide a small 30-pin to 9-pin converter

19-pin, but yes. An adapter would have to support the weight of the phone and present a current-gen profile to the docking station. Whilst I'm sure there will be a slew of Club 19-30 adapters to provide an electrically compatible solution, I can't readily see Apple producing something that would provide a robust mount in a third party docking station.

In any case, an adapter doesn't sound like a particularly elegant or aesthetically pleasing solution. Seems inconsistent that you're advocating some lump of plastic sitting between a phone and a docking station as a great idea, when a couple of posts back you were bleating about mains plugs not being pretty enough.

There are obvious benefits to a smaller connector of course but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if this isn't an intentional move on Apple's part to knobble third party devices and sell iPort licenses to manufacturers at a premium. The "aftersales tat" market is a rich seam of revenue currently flooded by third parties, and any third party sale equates a lost sale for Apple.

There's another side-effect here too. What's the obvious solution for a consumer with too much disposable income? Buy an iPhone 5, and keep your iPhone 4. That's potentially a bullet in the head for the second-hand market. Want an iPhone? You'll have to get a new one, cos all the old ones are now music centres.

That's assuming it ever comes to fruition in the first place, of course. Until Apple confirm it or leave a prototype in a pub somewhere, confirmed rumours are still just rumours.

I'm not "advocating" it Cougar, just saying I suspect it will happen if they really do change the connector.

As for knobbling third party devices, I don't [i]think[/i] Apple are that dumb.

One of the main selling points of iDevices is the massive range of third-party docks and widgets that are designed specifically for them.
Apple sell third-party accessories in their stores and on-line.

Killing that market would be very very silly.

kayak23 - Member
But the idea is to simplify. Who wants to have to buy yet another adaptor for every charging point they have, be that at home, upstairs, office, car etc, etc.

If you're buying a new iThingy then £10 on an adaptor so you can use it with your stereodockthingy isn't much.

If anyone wants to better understand Apple's philosophy this is an interesting watch:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/11/full-video-of-tim-cooks-d10-interview-now-available/

Did they do that last time?

The higher end docking stations come with a selection of 'adapters' that sit around the connector plug, basically just a plastic moulding which supports the housing of whichever iDevice you're connecting.

That is all well and good but it was the actual connection plug that changed between the 2nd and 3rd gen iPods. A new iPod would "fit" on an old accessory but would not charge.

The new one appears to be a bigger change as the dock is a different form factor.

Its a tricky one for Apple they can't stand still forever but people with old and new will be anoyed for a bit. But since Apple have so much goodwill they will ride the poo storm and in the end we will end up with better tech and everyone will forget (as long as they don't do it too often).

CaptJon - Member
If you're buying a new iThingy then £10 on an adaptor so you can use it with your stereodockthingy isn't much

True, but unless I walk round all day with a little plastic adaptor in my pocket then I'd then need to also buy one for the charger near my bed, the one downstairs, the one in my car, the one at work....etc..
Still, can't halt progress...

why didnt they embed a micro usb form factor port in their 19pin skinny port so that you could at lease use the usb to charge even if not for data?

One of the main selling points of iDevices is the massive range of third-party docks and widgets that are designed specifically for them.

There are many selling points, but I'm fairly confident that that's not a 'main' one, not even remotely.

Personally, it's one of the main reasons I've always [i]avoided [/i]the iPhone; the problem with buying expensive kit designed specifically for a device which has obsolescence built into its sales model is that a) you're then tied into buying the same make of handset until you die (which I appreciate is less of an issue for some folk) and b) if said manufacturer ever changes their specification you're screwed. And, oh look.

If we'd been having this discussion yesterday, I'll bet you an iPhone 5 that you'd be arguing that the Apple port is a "standard" and it'd never change. (-:

I'm confident that the connector on my phone dock is future proof and will continue to play music whether my next phone is Android, iPhone, Blackberry, or something else. it's a 3.5mm jack plug. (Sure, it's not a digital connector, but that's all right because I only have analogue ears.)

Killing that market would be very very silly.

Yeah, but obfuscating the technology and then selling licensing to OEMs would be good business.

why didnt they embed a micro usb form factor port in their 19pin skinny port so that you could at lease use the usb to charge even if not for data?

Is it "confirmed" that they haven't?

Congrats to all who couldn't be arsed to read the links in the post.

The EU regulation as signed up to by all phone makers (including Apple) said Micro USB was to be the standard comm/charging interface.

One of the main selling points of iDevices is the massive range of third-party docks and widgets that are designed specifically for them.

Proprietary [i]anything[/i] discourages interoperability.
(Oh wait, people [i]like[/i] the walled garden)

it's one of the main reasons I've always avoided the iPhone; the problem with buying expensive kit designed specifically for a device....

Yes, but the alternative is to buy a device that has no kit specifically designed for it and just gets by through a series of kludges.

I'll bet you an iPhone 5 that you'd be arguing that the Apple port is a "standard" and it'd never change.

Nah. Arguing that anything in the digital era will "never change" is a hiding to nothing. But I will admit that I am surprised at this news.

I'm confident that the connector on my phone dock is future proof and will continue to play music whether my next phone is Android, iPhone, Blackberry, or something else. it's a 3.5mm jack plug.

Yep, that's great. So how does it display artist/track information on your stereo? How do you control track selection with your dock's remote? How do you get video and data out a 3.5mm plug? How do you plug in third-party accessories?

The EU regulation as signed up to by all phone makers (including Apple) said Micro USB was to be the standard comm/charging interface.

Yep. And Apple promptly offered a Micro USB to 30-pin converter shortly after signing that.

Did all the other phone manufacturers offer converters for their legacy devices?

>it's one of the main reasons I've always avoided the iPhone; the problem with buying expensive kit designed specifically for a device....
[b]Yes, but the alternative is to buy a device that has no kit specifically designed for it and just gets by through a series of kludges.[/b]

Yep, that's great. So how does it display artist/track information on your stereo? How do you control track selection with your docks remote? How do you get video and data out a 3.5mm plug? How do you plug in third-party accessories?

Hopefully with a unversal standard so there is no vendor lock-in when the third-party accessories / stereo are purchased. Perhaps microUSB? Oh...

Did all the other phone manufacturers offer converters for their legacy devices?

Since getting an iphone I have been perfectly happy with it and the range of accessories and the connector on it. I have lost interest in what htc or samsung do with their phones, what connections they have etc, because it doesn't affect me.

Why are the users of these other devices so hung up on what apple does?

C'mon, you're a smart bloke - is that really the only alternative?
I'll give you a hint - you use USB every day. Kit no longer has to be specifically designed (driver level) for different computers. Is it kludgey...?

Unfortunately there is a MASSIVE difference between specifying MicroUSB as a standard [i]physical[/i] interface for charging (as the EU did) and defining standard [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Device_classes ]USB Device Classes[/url] in an attempt to standardise everything a smartphone can do.

As I understand it there has been no work on the latter.

This isn't about legacy! This is about a new apple standard that is different to the new universal standard.

You assume. We don't really know yet.

Why are the users of these other devices so hung up on what apple does?

Because they look on enviously at the range of stuff available for Apple phones and know that the only way they'll get similar support is if Apple move to their standard.

this is ridiculous

there must be a global mountain of obsolete chargers

its a waste of resources and bad for the environment

standardising chargers is a good thing

apple are happy to put profit over environmental concerns, shirley even the most ardent fanboys can see that?

apple are happy to put profit over environmental concerns, shirley even the most ardent fanboys can see that?

Steve Jobs warned me there would be people like you.

standardising chargers is a good thing

Hmm.. I have several Apple chargers about the house, that have been used by several generations of iPods and iPhones, and are currently used by two iPhones and an iPad.

Meanwhile I have a big box of old chargers in the loft from various Nokias, Samsungs and other old phones.

Also Apple had the sense to make the cable on their chargers detachable, using a USB connector (something none of those other manufacturers were doing) so it can also be used when connecting to a PC. And if they do come out with a new standard then I expect it will be compatible with all the existing chargers via one new cable.

Meanwhile existing owners of phones from the other manufacturers will have to bin all their old chargers as the market moves to Micro-USB.

I'm not sure why that makes Apple the eco bad guys!

You assume. We don't really know yet.

Unfortunately there is a MASSIVE difference between specifying MicroUSB as a standard physical interface for charging (as the EU did) and defining standard USB Device Classes in an attempt to standardise everything a smartphone can do.
As I understand it there has been no work on the latter.

I'm not sure why that makes Apple the eco bad guys!

eh?

htc chargers also do this, can swap between euro/ uk pins too
[img] [/img]

and nokia, htc and blackberry used microUSB chargers for a while

apple are just one of those competing standards heading for the waste mountain, but fanboy blinkers somehow prevent you from seeing this!

I used to have one of these in 2006...
http://pocketnow.com/review/htc-p3300-artemis-pocket-pc-phone

which had a standard mini-USB socket that could also be used for headphones/speakers plus the charger just had a normal USB socket on it, and i'm pretty sure it came out at least a year before the first iPhone. I still own and use both the charger and cable as they also work with my Garmin.

So i'm not quite sure Apple can be credited with quite as much as some people are making out.

Windows mobile was crap though.

Kimbers, +1

*Waits for GrahamS our resident Applevangelist to tell me why I'm wrong! 😉 *

Kimbers, +1

A well thought out riposte.

...just to check, we did all read there was an adaptor, right?