The point has spectaculalry been missed here.*
The real issue isn't that Apple don't use micro USB but that Apple are changing their dock connector again.
That means that all those accessories that work with existing iDevices... won't work with new iDevices. Last time they did this it wasn't such a big deal as it was pre iPhone but imagine the poo storm when evryone realises their expensive dock will not work with their new iPhone.
[i]*A charging standard is only of very limited benefit now that everything charges from USB voltages. Its only a cable that is required rather than a huge transformer like back in the day. But where the apple dock conector really wins is its standard placement. It is always in the same place on every iphone, ipod, itouch and even ipad. That way it can work as a dock and not just something to plug a cable into. Ever seen a phone that follows the micro USB "standard" that can achive that?[/i]
That means that all those accessories that work with existing iDevices... won't work with new iDevices.
Or more likely they'll issue small adaptors to go between old and new.
Or more likely they'll issue small adaptors to go between old and new.
Did they do that last time? I don't think they did (but am willing to be proven wrong)
No idea, I wasn't a fanboi back then. But there are a LOT more iDevices and docks out there these days, including some that will be hard to change (i.e. built into cars) so I imagine a solution will be offered (if not by Apple then by some enterprising third-party).
Or more likely they'll issue small adaptors to go between old and new
But the idea is to simplify. Who wants to have to buy yet another adaptor for every charging point they have, be that at home, upstairs, office, car etc, etc.
Who really cares about a standard for phone sockets?
Me...
Between my ipod, Android phone, camera, powermonkey, electric toothbush 😀 etc, etc, I have chargers coming out of me ears!
One single charger would be bliss... 8)
they have a choice, they can give the adaptor with new products, or they can sell the adaptor.
which will they choose i wonder?
Who wants to have to buy yet another adaptor for every charging point they have, be that at home, upstairs, office, car etc, etc.
I doubt you'd have to.
Any new standard the Apple come up with will undoubtedly still have USB at the other end of the cable, so (I would imagine) that it'll just plug into all your existing Apple plugs.
I'm just suggesting that for people who have cars & music docks that uses the existing 30-pin doc they'll probably provide a small 30-pin to 9-pin converter (as they did for MicroUSB).
they have a choice, they can give the adaptor with new products, or they can sell the adaptor.
which will they choose i wonder?
Hmm.. tricky..
increase the total price of your product so you can "give" a converter that many people won't need.
Or sell the converter separately as a cheap add-on to support people with legacy docks.
as they did for MicroUSB
Hmmm ... but only for one flavour of MicroUSB, and the less common one at that 🙁
only for one flavour of MicroUSB, and the less common one at that
Que?
Not actually got one. Why is it the "less common" Micro-USB? I didn't know there were flavours.
Incidentally, fact fans might want to glance over the current pin-out spec for the existing 30-pin connector:
http://appledock.mysticlagoon.com/pinouts.html
Audio out, Audio in, Video out (S-Video and Composite), Serial, USB, Firewire and Power
Firewire
Bollocks. They haven't had a Firewire chip in years. (Ok, they did when the connector was made. Me and my haste)
Maybe I am talking sh1te 🙁 and confusing microUSB (of which I have no other devices) and miniUSB (of which I have lots).
Did they do that last time?
The higher end docking stations come with a selection of 'adapters' that sit around the connector plug, basically just a plastic moulding which supports the housing of whichever iDevice you're connecting.
I'm just suggesting that for people who have cars & music docks that uses the existing 30-pin doc they'll probably provide a small 30-pin to 9-pin converter
19-pin, but yes. An adapter would have to support the weight of the phone and present a current-gen profile to the docking station. Whilst I'm sure there will be a slew of Club 19-30 adapters to provide an electrically compatible solution, I can't readily see Apple producing something that would provide a robust mount in a third party docking station.
In any case, an adapter doesn't sound like a particularly elegant or aesthetically pleasing solution. Seems inconsistent that you're advocating some lump of plastic sitting between a phone and a docking station as a great idea, when a couple of posts back you were bleating about mains plugs not being pretty enough.
There are obvious benefits to a smaller connector of course but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if this isn't an intentional move on Apple's part to knobble third party devices and sell iPort licenses to manufacturers at a premium. The "aftersales tat" market is a rich seam of revenue currently flooded by third parties, and any third party sale equates a lost sale for Apple.
There's another side-effect here too. What's the obvious solution for a consumer with too much disposable income? Buy an iPhone 5, and keep your iPhone 4. That's potentially a bullet in the head for the second-hand market. Want an iPhone? You'll have to get a new one, cos all the old ones are now music centres.
That's assuming it ever comes to fruition in the first place, of course. Until Apple confirm it or leave a prototype in a pub somewhere, confirmed rumours are still just rumours.
I'm not "advocating" it Cougar, just saying I suspect it will happen if they really do change the connector.
As for knobbling third party devices, I don't [i]think[/i] Apple are that dumb.
One of the main selling points of iDevices is the massive range of third-party docks and widgets that are designed specifically for them.
Apple sell third-party accessories in their stores and on-line.
Killing that market would be very very silly.
kayak23 - Member
But the idea is to simplify. Who wants to have to buy yet another adaptor for every charging point they have, be that at home, upstairs, office, car etc, etc.
If you're buying a new iThingy then £10 on an adaptor so you can use it with your stereodockthingy isn't much.
If anyone wants to better understand Apple's philosophy this is an interesting watch:
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/11/full-video-of-tim-cooks-d10-interview-now-available/
Did they do that last time?
The higher end docking stations come with a selection of 'adapters' that sit around the connector plug, basically just a plastic moulding which supports the housing of whichever iDevice you're connecting.
That is all well and good but it was the actual connection plug that changed between the 2nd and 3rd gen iPods. A new iPod would "fit" on an old accessory but would not charge.
The new one appears to be a bigger change as the dock is a different form factor.
Its a tricky one for Apple they can't stand still forever but people with old and new will be anoyed for a bit. But since Apple have so much goodwill they will ride the poo storm and in the end we will end up with better tech and everyone will forget (as long as they don't do it too often).
CaptJon - Member
If you're buying a new iThingy then £10 on an adaptor so you can use it with your stereodockthingy isn't much
True, but unless I walk round all day with a little plastic adaptor in my pocket then I'd then need to also buy one for the charger near my bed, the one downstairs, the one in my car, the one at work....etc..
Still, can't halt progress...
why didnt they embed a micro usb form factor port in their 19pin skinny port so that you could at lease use the usb to charge even if not for data?
One of the main selling points of iDevices is the massive range of third-party docks and widgets that are designed specifically for them.
There are many selling points, but I'm fairly confident that that's not a 'main' one, not even remotely.
Personally, it's one of the main reasons I've always [i]avoided [/i]the iPhone; the problem with buying expensive kit designed specifically for a device which has obsolescence built into its sales model is that a) you're then tied into buying the same make of handset until you die (which I appreciate is less of an issue for some folk) and b) if said manufacturer ever changes their specification you're screwed. And, oh look.
If we'd been having this discussion yesterday, I'll bet you an iPhone 5 that you'd be arguing that the Apple port is a "standard" and it'd never change. (-:
I'm confident that the connector on my phone dock is future proof and will continue to play music whether my next phone is Android, iPhone, Blackberry, or something else. it's a 3.5mm jack plug. (Sure, it's not a digital connector, but that's all right because I only have analogue ears.)
Killing that market would be very very silly.
Yeah, but obfuscating the technology and then selling licensing to OEMs would be good business.
why didnt they embed a micro usb form factor port in their 19pin skinny port so that you could at lease use the usb to charge even if not for data?
Is it "confirmed" that they haven't?
Congrats to all who couldn't be arsed to read the links in the post.
The EU regulation as signed up to by all phone makers (including Apple) said Micro USB was to be the standard comm/charging interface.
One of the main selling points of iDevices is the massive range of third-party docks and widgets that are designed specifically for them.
Funny, this thread is about Apple trumping a universal standard in favour of their own. Imagine how wonderful the world would be if [i]everything[/i] 'just works' together by using [i]universal standards[/i]. This would eliminate the need for things to be designed specifically.
Proprietary [i]anything[/i] discourages interoperability.
(Oh wait, people [i]like[/i] the walled garden)
it's one of the main reasons I've always avoided the iPhone; the problem with buying expensive kit designed specifically for a device....
Yes, but the alternative is to buy a device that has no kit specifically designed for it and just gets by through a series of kludges.
I'll bet you an iPhone 5 that you'd be arguing that the Apple port is a "standard" and it'd never change.
Nah. Arguing that anything in the digital era will "never change" is a hiding to nothing. But I will admit that I am surprised at this news.
I'm confident that the connector on my phone dock is future proof and will continue to play music whether my next phone is Android, iPhone, Blackberry, or something else. it's a 3.5mm jack plug.
Yep, that's great. So how does it display artist/track information on your stereo? How do you control track selection with your dock's remote? How do you get video and data out a 3.5mm plug? How do you plug in third-party accessories?
The EU regulation as signed up to by all phone makers (including Apple) said Micro USB was to be the standard comm/charging interface.
Yep. And Apple promptly offered a Micro USB to 30-pin converter shortly after signing that.
Did all the other phone manufacturers offer converters for their legacy devices?
>it's one of the main reasons I've always avoided the iPhone; the problem with buying expensive kit designed specifically for a device....
[b]Yes, but the alternative is to buy a device that has no kit specifically designed for it and just gets by through a series of kludges.[/b]
That's the only alternative? C'mon, you're a smart bloke - is that [i]really[/i] the only alternative?
I'll give you a hint - you use USB every day. Kit no longer has to be specifically designed (driver level) for different computers. Is it kludgey...?
Yep, that's great. So how does it display artist/track information on your stereo? How do you control track selection with your docks remote? How do you get video and data out a 3.5mm plug? How do you plug in third-party accessories?
Hopefully with a unversal standard so there is no vendor lock-in when the third-party accessories / stereo are purchased. Perhaps microUSB? Oh...
Did all the other phone manufacturers offer converters for their legacy devices?
This isn't about legacy! This is about a [i]new[/i] apple standard that is different to the [i]new[/i] universal standard.
Since getting an iphone I have been perfectly happy with it and the range of accessories and the connector on it. I have lost interest in what htc or samsung do with their phones, what connections they have etc, because it doesn't affect me.
Why are the users of these other devices so hung up on what apple does?
C'mon, you're a smart bloke - is that really the only alternative?
I'll give you a hint - you use USB every day. Kit no longer has to be specifically designed (driver level) for different computers. Is it kludgey...?
Unfortunately there is a MASSIVE difference between specifying MicroUSB as a standard [i]physical[/i] interface for charging (as the EU did) and defining standard [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Device_classes ]USB Device Classes[/url] in an attempt to standardise everything a smartphone can do.
As I understand it there has been no work on the latter.
This isn't about legacy! This is about a new apple standard that is different to the new universal standard.
You assume. We don't really know yet.
Why are the users of these other devices so hung up on what apple does?
Because they look on enviously at the range of stuff available for Apple phones and know that the only way they'll get similar support is if Apple move to their standard.
this is ridiculous
there must be a global mountain of obsolete chargers
its a waste of resources and bad for the environment
standardising chargers is a good thing
apple are happy to put profit over environmental concerns, shirley even the most ardent fanboys can see that?
apple are happy to put profit over environmental concerns, shirley even the most ardent fanboys can see that?
Steve Jobs warned me there would be people like you.
standardising chargers is a good thing
Hmm.. I have several Apple chargers about the house, that have been used by several generations of iPods and iPhones, and are currently used by two iPhones and an iPad.
Meanwhile I have a big box of old chargers in the loft from various Nokias, Samsungs and other old phones.
Also Apple had the sense to make the cable on their chargers detachable, using a USB connector (something none of those other manufacturers were doing) so it can also be used when connecting to a PC. And if they do come out with a new standard then I expect it will be compatible with all the existing chargers via one new cable.
Meanwhile existing owners of phones from the other manufacturers will have to bin all their old chargers as the market moves to Micro-USB.
I'm not sure why that makes Apple the eco bad guys!
You assume. We don't really know yet.
The article (which this thread is about) assumes.
Unfortunately there is a MASSIVE difference between specifying MicroUSB as a standard physical interface for charging (as the EU did) and defining standard USB Device Classes in an attempt to standardise everything a smartphone can do.
As I understand it there has been no work on the latter.
If apple adopted MicroUSB, it [i]would[/i] be a step toward the latter. If apple do not adopt the standard, it is the continuation of what we have now. How is this progressive, innovative or desirable?
I'm not sure why that makes Apple the eco bad guys!
You're living in the past.
eh?
htc chargers also do this, can swap between euro/ uk pins too
[img] 
[/img]
and nokia, htc and blackberry used microUSB chargers for a while
apple are just one of those competing standards heading for the waste mountain, but fanboy blinkers somehow prevent you from seeing this!
I used to have one of these in 2006...
http://pocketnow.com/review/htc-p3300-artemis-pocket-pc-phone
which had a standard mini-USB socket that could also be used for headphones/speakers plus the charger just had a normal USB socket on it, and i'm pretty sure it came out at least a year before the first iPhone. I still own and use both the charger and cable as they also work with my Garmin.
So i'm not quite sure Apple can be credited with quite as much as some people are making out.
Windows mobile was crap though.
Kimbers, +1
*Waits for GrahamS our resident Applevangelist to tell me why I'm wrong! 😉 *
Kimbers, +1
A well thought out riposte.
...just to check, we did all read there was an adaptor, right?
You're living in the past.
Ahhh right.
So if we close our eyes and forget about all the billions of existing non Micro-USB chargers out there and the ecological cost of disposing of them THEN Apple are the eco bad guys? I see.
Sounds like the same kind of "eco" approach where someone scraps an existing car to buy a brand new Prius, closing their eyes to the environmental costs of the scrappage and the manufacturing of the new car.
So, iphone, htc, nokia and blackberry chargers are all interchangeable. What exactly is the point the haterz are trying to make?
Yes, but the alternative is to buy a device that has no kit specifically designed for it and just gets by through a series of kludges.
That's just disingenuous. Micro USB is hardly a kludge, and headphones have interoperated with different makes of kit for decades.
Yep, that's great. So how does it display artist/track information on your stereo? How do you control track selection with your dock's remote? How do you get video and data out a 3.5mm plug? How do you plug in third-party accessories?
Yes it is. Using the phone's display. The dock is right next to me (I have it in the kitchen), I don't need a remote. Why do I need video and data in order to listen to music? The only third party device I need is ears, and helpfully mine are wireless.
If I did want those functions (for a situation other than the one we're actually discussing), the phone - heck, all phones - has platform-agnostic WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity, so providing app support for such features would be trivial.
Because they look on enviously at the range of stuff available for Apple phones
Do you [i]really [/i]think we're envious or are you just looking to see who bites? Get over yourself. If I really was envious I'd just go and buy one.
Meanwhile existing owners of phones from the other manufacturers will have to bin all their old chargers as the market moves to Micro-USB.
And iPhone owners didn't have to bin all their old chargers as they migrated from old to new? Ah... I see, they're in a box in the loft 😉
Oh and microUSB has been standard on many/most other smartphones for years. It's here now, it's not "coming in".
Do you really think we're envious or are you just looking to see who bites? Get over yourself. If I really was envious I'd just go and buy one.
Well its not the iphone users who need to keep starting threads slagging off the other manufacturer's, I wouldn't even look at a thread with htc in the title.
Ahhh right.So if we close our eyes and forget about all the billions of existing non Micro-USB chargers out there and the ecological cost of disposing of them THEN Apple are the eco bad guys? I see.
Sounds like the same kind of "eco" approach where someone scraps an existing car to buy a brand new Prius, closing their eyes to the environmental costs of the scrappage and the manufacturing of the new car.
Now THAT was just a rant 🙂
I think he's cracked, everyone!
So if we close our eyes and forget about all the billions of existing non Micro-USB chargers out there and the ecological cost of disposing of them THEN Apple are the eco bad guys? I see.
If I remember correctly, up until the rise of USB chargers most manufacturers have kept with the same charger, pretty much. Nokia was cited as an example earlier; apart from a brief dalliance with the Apple-esque 'pop port', they've had the same charger for donkeys' years. They brought in a new one relatively recently when ever-smaller form factors caused issues with the old 'fat' plug, and that's electrically identical and thus convertible with a small inline adapter.
Thinking back, I can't immediately think of a manufacturer that has continually changed adapters between devices (I'm sure there are, just I can't think of any).
Not that I'm saying Apple are inherently better or worse here. Point is that, at the time, everyone had their own proprietary charging system, Apple included. The only difference between Apple and everyone else is their subsequent market penetration. The Apple charging cable now is ubiquitous for the same reason the Nokia one used to be.
The dock is right next to me (I have it in the kitchen), I don't need a remote.
Amazingly some other people plug phones into docks that are slightly further away and would like to use a remote?
Wandering up to your stereo to change track is a bit '80s isn't it?
[img] 
[/img]
Why do I need video and data in order to listen to music?
You're the one selling it to me as a replacement for the Apple 30-pin connector. That handles several data formats, analogue audio and two video formats. As well as allowing third-party accessories. And power.
all phones - has platform-agnostic WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity
Uh-huh. And I'm sure that will come. But right now there isn't a well accepted/supported platform-agnostic wireless standard that lets me say, change track on my phone from my cars stereo controls.
Do you really think we're envious or are you just looking to see who bites?
Just fighting trolls with trolls 😀
And iPhone owners didn't have to bin all their old chargers as they migrated from old to new?
Err.. that's right they didn't. As I said, I'm still using the charger we got with the original iPod Touch.
Well its not the iphone users who need to keep starting threads slagging off the other manufacturer's, I wouldn't even look at a thread with htc in the title.
It's usually the iPhone users who get sensitive about the slightest whiff of criticism towards their iPrecious, though. The OP wasn't slagging off anyone, it was a news story presented without comment (and, I thought, an interesting one). I like to keep abreast of technology irrespective of what I currently own, that's how one makes informed purchases in the future.
Do you really think we're envious or are you just looking to see who bites? Get over yourself. If I really was envious I'd just go and buy one.
It stinks of coveting in here.
