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I'm sure you're very knowledgeable about rail safety but the Office of Rail Regulation probably trump your knowledge.
😀
Don't forget eliminating the role of the conductors also limits the powers of the unions to call damaging strikes, as the trains will still be able to run without them. Obviously, Southern Rail couldn't organise their way out of a wet tissue paper bag, but this is partly to do with the unions retaining their bargaining power.
The RSSB actually said:
Findings …“A review of the safety implications of DOO(P) indicated that there may be changes to the risk profile, in terms of the likelihood of events occurring, or the severity of their consequences. [b]However, with the right technical and operational mitigations the analysis has considered the provision of DOO(P) to be safety neutral[/b]
The issue is the new stock is made for DOO. The older stock that southern uses is not.
Which actually explain the issues and history of the dispute. 20 days of strikes only, the service has been terrible for more days than that!
Yes, the service on strike days is generally better than normal days. It's a skeleton service, but they run what they say they'll run (broadly) when they say they'll run it.
I don't mind an infrequent service as long as it's dependable. During the strikes last week they ran trains until after 22.00, which is fine by me.
they say they'll run (broadly) when they say they'll run it
No they don't.
The issue is the new stock is made for DOO. The older stock that southern uses is not.
So why strike if Southern's old stock isn't allowed to have Driver only trains?
Clearly it *has* been deemed safe for Southern.
This thread definitely needs someone posting hilarious, irreverent pictures.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/southern-rail-strike-why-has-it-happened-explained-london-trains-doors-dispute-a7471381.html ]War by proxy[/url]
Have the guards been sacked yet?
Has your train turned up yet?
Ta Woppit:
The document also goes into considerable detail about Driver Only Operation (DOO) of trains, first agreed nationally in 1985.Some of the arrangements on the practice agreed between the union and the management look almost comical: “If the conductor is left behind by driver error, the duty may run DOO until the conductor can be reunited with the service.” But the document demonstrates that the practice at the heart of the dispute has been running safely for decades.
Southern Electrostars are, of course, equipped for DOO. They have operated as driver only for years on the route to East Grinstead, and have been for some months on other routes.
Utter lunacy to suggest their stock isn't designed for DOO!
they say they'll run (broadly) when they say they'll run it
No they don't.
I don't know if that's intentional selective quoting, but they broadly do. They publish a strike time table, and they broadly run it. Last week was a bit shit for other infrastructure reasons, but last Tuesday I was on time arriving at Victoria, and only 10 minutes late on the way home. That's far better than a 'normal' service day.
There is a lot of fat in the timetable, which helps, so slow station stops don't really matter.
Well, have the guards been sacked yet ?
Tosserz.
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I don't know if that's intentional selective quoting, but they broadly do. They publish a strike time table, and they broadly run it. Last week was a bit shit for other infrastructure reasons, but last Tuesday I was on time arriving at Victoria, and only 10 minutes late on the way home. That's far better than a 'normal' service day.
Nope, not even close. Trains are cancelled left right and centre on strike days. I've spent plenty of time waiting on Victoria station watching the "cancelled" notification spread across the board.
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Nope, not even close. Trains are cancelled left right and centre on strike days. I've spent plenty of time waiting on Victoria station watching the "cancelled" notification spread across the board.
Fair enough, I've seen the odd one, but definitely a better service (proportionally) than non-strike days. I still try and WFH or use other routes though admittedly. The 5 day strike during the summer was a pleasure though - empty trains running as booked!
Just had a quick look at RecentTrainTimes; during the 3 day strike last week they cancelled one train in the evening peak on my route, and one was 30 minutes late, actually consecutive trains which was due to a signal problem at Purley, which is totally unrelated to the strike, and actually the reduced volume of trains would have helped.
Conversely on Friday they cancelled 2, and another was 28 minutes late. Yesterday they cancelled two, one was 37 minutes late and one was 58 minutes late. That's out of 7 trains arriving between 1800 and 2200.
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Scot rail agreed to keep guards or train conductors in their present role, the new trainsets are being modified to allow the above to work the doors.
and a few years ago in Liverpool a Guard was sent to prison after a young girl fell between the train and platform interface at James street station, and another case is pending for another guard, despite the guard being on the same side of the train as the passenger on the platform, some stations have the platform on the opposite side, guards are now instructed to leave the train and check the doors are clear before reboaring the train and closing the doors, and finally checking doors again before Right away is signalled to the driver, and most of our trains are only 3 car not 12 cars like down south for the masses, all observed via small cctv monitors on the platform end.
njee20 - Member
Southern Electrostars are, of course, equipped for DOO. They have operated as driver only for years on the route to East Grinstead, and have been for some months on other routes.
I stand corrected (said the man in the orthopaedic shoes), I assumed it was being implemented as old stock was being phased out, hence why it's happening now. Which throws up another question, if they've been running DOO on other routes for years why are they changing existing guard services on other routes now?
I haven't had a chance to read all of this yet (i will later) so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but as a Southern customer previously and for 7 years i've seen the conductors carry out various other duties other than shut the doors including:
Sell/check tickets
Customer enquiries about connections etc.
Assist disabled customers on and off trains
Provide first aid
Call the police and assist them following an assault of a passenger
Remove drunken/abusive passengers from the trains.
I don't think that drivers could manage any of these whilst also driving the train, so in my opinion conductors should remain and hence i think Southern are in the wrong.
SOUTHERN ARE NOT PROPOSING TO REMOVE THE GUARDS.
Calm down, like i said i haven't had the chance to read it all yet, i'm sure this thread will let me know why every media outlet is reporting that they are then.
SOUTHERN ARE NOT PROPOSING TO REMOVE THE GUARDS.
hmmm, but they're not promising that they'll continue to be guards either.
They're promising no redundancies for a given period, no pay cuts, and every train which currently has a guard to continue having an on board safety person.
Virgin doesn't have guards. They have train managers. What makes a guard a guard? Dispatching the train? They don't do that in major stations. Were they not guards before automatic doors?
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Southern Electrostars are, of course, equipped for DOO. They have operated as driver only for years on the route to East Grinstead, and have been for some months on other routes.
No they don't. Do you know how I know that? I live in East Grinstead.
Zing!
[i]Twenty-two minutes late, badger ate a junction box at New Malden.[/i]
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No they don't. Do you know how I know that? I live in East Grinstead.
Apologies, I meant Uckfield, not sure how far they run as DOO, presumably they're not at East Grinstead. Happy to be wrong on that point.
That's not to say there isn't a guard on the train, just how they operate. Same with all the Arun Valley trains now - DOO south of 3 Bridges
[i]Seventeen minutes late, water seeping through the cables at Effingham Junction - there was a lot of Effingham and a good deal of Blindingham![/i]
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Southern Rail strike - who is right?
Ask Nigel Farage, then adopt the polar opposite viewpoint. Usually does the trick.
This is what a DOO driver gets to see in his display. Now imagine monitoring 500+ passengers using 24 sets of doors through that display knowing that the ORR and Crown prosecution service are to pin manslaughter upon you if you get it wrong.
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And if you aren't lucky enough to have an on board display....you get this.
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It's far far better to have a guard physically stood on the platform to observe the door closing procedure.
DOO was brought into service at a time when the railways were in terminal decline. They weren't running 12 car units with 1000+ people on them.
ASLEF are more than happy to discuss an agreement like Scotrail introduced whereby the driver opens the doors and the guards closes them. This could have been settled a long time ago..
Hmm just back to this.
Bikebuoy, good trolling.
Apologies, I meant Uckfield, not sure how far they run as DOO, presumably they're not at East Grinstead. Happy to be wrong on that point.
Furry muff, no worries. I can't really comment on the Uckfield line: Although my Parents live there, I've only ever used that line once, after last years company xmas lunch, and I was rather drunk, so I can remember much detail 
It's far far better to have a guard physically stood on the platform to observe the door closing procedure.
DOO was brought into service at a time when the railways were in terminal decline. They weren't running 12 car units with 1000+ people on them.
In which case why strike on Southern Trains only? The problem is with the ORR who are allowing dangerous practices, not with one specific rail firm. Problems with DOO are not specific to Southern.
And why is the only body making this case a body who happen to have a strong alternative reason to prevent automation. Quite a coincidence.
Occams razors says the rail firms want DOO to reduce headcount and the Unions are opposing it to prevent a reduction in headcount.
Have you sent those photos to the ORR? What did they say about them?
A nice little summary of the other issue the RMT has
Southern has become the critical battleground in a war over how trains are staffed in future.
Aslef and the RMT union joined forces in November 2015 to draw a line in the sand. No more DOO.
Bear in mind, if these changes go through the RMT will have less power to stop trains if it calls strikes in future. Because services will be able to run without one of their conductors on board.
Whatever happens here will be reflected in future franchises as they take delivery of new DOO trains. I believe Northern is next
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38287571
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38305415
The ORR say
In a newly published letter to Louise Ellman, the chair of the Transport Select Committee, written after he appeared before the committee on 14 November, Prosser said he “would like to reiterate” that the ORR believes DOO can be operated safely.
He added that, as with all methods of train dispatch, [b]“suitably maintained equipment, proper procedures and competent, trained staff” must be in place.[/b]
And the RSSB say
The director of system safety at the RSSB, Dr George Bearfield, has defended the organisation’s decision to rate driver-only operated (DOO) services as safe to the Transport Select Committee.
Louise Ellman MP, the head of the committee, repeatedly asked Bearfield if the fact that he had said that the operators will have to do a risk assessment of DOO meant it wasn’t completely safe.
But Bearfield said that the risk assessment was a “legal requirement” and “a responsibility that sits with the duty holder companies”.
“As far as we’re concerned, DOO is safe,” he added.
But earlier said
MPs also asked him why the RSSB had said in a March 2015 report that DOO was “only safety neutral if a range of mitigations were implemented” before issuing a recommendation, rather than a report, this year describing it as safe.
“I don’t think the statements are inconsistent,” Bearfield replied.
They are, at best, inconsistent.
repeatedly asked Bearfield if the fact that he had said that the operators will have to do a risk assessment of DOO meant it wasn’t completely safe.
Fishing statement trying to manipulate things,
This for instance
[i]He added that, as with all methods of train dispatch, “suitably maintained equipment, proper procedures and competent, trained staff” must be in place.[/i]
Applies equally to a conductor/guard being in charge of the doors.
Anyone looking to implement a change or maintain an existing system should be conducting a risk assesment. It's what tells you the level of Risk and Consequience of something failing and the mitigarion of such systems.
(Example would be a curved platform or a situation where visibility of every door was not possible, what systems would the door oprative (conductor in this case) have available to prevent an accident.
[i]March 2015 report that DOO was “only safety neutral if a range of mitigations were implemented” before issuing a recommendation, rather than a report, this year describing it as safe.[/i]
Safety neutral as in so safer or no less safe than current practice.
Have those mitigations been implemented? Would they be similar to methods used to let the current staff know if doors are clear etc. or methods to detect a failure to close/obstruction?
And another day of guards sitting on thier fat arses eating toast whilst the rest of society gets in with doing a job.
Tosserz
I would assume the "mitigation" point is a suggestion that not all existing systems can remain unchanged while maintaining the same level of risk.
E.g. you couldn't take some older rolling stock with no door cameras and run it on a line with curved platforms without installing door cameras.
When you change something in most business environments it's perfectly normal to have to invest in some hardware or procedural change at the same time for the long term benefits to be realised.
The impact on the 300,000 (think that was the figure a few pages back) who use Southern every day (or don't) and the knock on effect on those who don't but are still impacted by business and travel disruption seems very disproportionate.
What is missing (and ought to be available) is a binding court or arbitration process where both sides can present expert evidence and reasoned legal and commercial arguments and a judgement is handed down complete with an appeals process. This is the way virtually all other commercial disputes are settled when there is deadlock. Why should this type of dispute be different and able to have knock on effects on paying customers and taxpayers?
Here you would get safety experts on both sides who could report on the nature of the stations served, the adequacy of the CCTV and "mitigations" for different routes and rolling stock, any special considerations around passenger risk for certain routes or services, the quality of the risk assessments, relevant comparisons with other TOCs etc.
I have no idea who is "right" on the arguments here but I do feel that punishing those with no say in the dispute is morally wrong.
[i]Twenty two minutes late, escaped puma, Chessington North[/i]
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And another day of guards sitting on thier fat arses eating toast whilst the rest of society gets in with doing a job.Tosserz
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Good point Binners.
Staying with the Perrin theme,
I think we've established that the only people against this glorious step forward are:
Wreckers of law and order. Communists, Maoists, Trotskyists, neo-Trotskyists, crypto-Trotskyists, union leaders, Communist union leaders, atheists, agnostics, long-haired weirdos, short-haired weirdos, vandals, hooligans, football supporters, namby-pamby probation officers, rapists, papists, papist rapists, foreign surgeons - headshrinkers, who ought to be locked up, Wedgwood Benn, keg bitter, punk rock, glue-sniffers, "Play For Today", Clive Jenkins, Roy Jenkins, Up Jenkins, up everybody's, Chinese restaurants - why do you think Windsor Castle is ringed with Chinese restaurants?
😆
I think thats what bikebouy was trying to say
E.g. you couldn't take some older rolling stock with no door cameras and run it on a line with curved platforms without installing door cameras
Whilst that's a valid point network-wide it's not valid here, the trains that operate the vast majority of Southern services are so equipped.
Not just the guards striking today though BB, it's the drivers AND the guards.