[Closed] Southern Rail strike - who is right?

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Careful lads, lets not wake the guards up out of thier slumber.

Right On, Right Up da Workaz

Have you not got the troops in yet?

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Careful lads, lets not wake the guards up out of thier slumber.

Right On, Right Up da Workaz

Haven't you got a train to catch?

So to me, it seems that today, Southern want to take away the responsibility of 'pressing the button' from the guards.

Is this worth striking over, on its own - No.

However, I think this is seen as a step towards rail companies eroding the role & responsibilities of manual staff and that from the unions perspective they have to draw the line somewhere and make a point of "who controls who" at some point and so they have chosen this point. Its highly visible and a mighty pain in the a**e and so there is an incentive to resolve it from all sides. This is the same as the tube unions have been doing for years.

I don't particularly [i]blame[/i] the Unions. They are doing what they do & quite frankly they don't give a **** about anyone else. I do believe that their time is limited and that these roles will be automated at some point but not without a fight and probably not until we are the laughing stock of the world for having the most antiquated public transport system in the modern world.

Do the rail companies want to get rid of the guards on the trains eventually? probably. I don't think we can [i]blame[/i] them either. They are under pressure to reduce fairs and increase efficiency too.

I certainly don't think nationalised industry is the way to go. The incentives are all wrong if you want a decent efficient service. That said. the current model is not right either.

The solution?? Not sure.

I do feel sorry for my fellow commuters stuffed in the middle of this turdfest of a battleground though. Good luck guys.

I do believe that their time is limited and that these roles will be automated at some point but not without a fight and probably not until we are the laughing stock of the world for having the most antiquated public transport system in the modern world.

Oh we're aiming far far higher than that. We shall accept nothing less than the most antiquated, inefficient, and expensive public transport system in the modern or.... **** it..... even the third world.

And by the christ, we're nearly there! But the shareholders are laughing their tits off so its all [b]BRILLIAAAAAANT!!!!![/b]

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Pretty sure no one is laughing their tits off at the moment - except maybe the few at the Unions enjoying the power play.

Have you not got the troops in yet?

If only we hadn't disbanded 79 railway squadron RCT...

I believe we got rid of the territorial army railway unit too

Pretty sure no one is laughing their tits off at the moment

Well the guys at Southern are still getting paid to provide a service, while delivering something thats a laughable parody of one, all while the taxpayer picks up the tab (again), so I reckon they'll be allowing themselves at least a slight guffaw

Cheers!

Do the rail companies want to get rid of the guards on the trains eventually? probably. I don't think we can blame them either. They are under pressure to reduce fairs and increase efficiency too.

while trying not to get sidetracked too much, we're obsessed by a system that has created the mantra of "maximising profits and reducing costs" This is short hand/code for make sure the shareholders and owners get richer and richer at the expense of every-one else. we've become almost hypnotised into becoming the turkeys that vote for Xmas. This is NOT what this dispute is about though

The Unions are saying (quite rightly in my opinion) there is a safety issue on [i]these types of trains[/i] operating as Driver only (comparing the trains that Southern operate to the Docklands Light Railway is a red herring) and that the offer to retain guards as train managers really only lasts the lifetime of this franchise (as once they aren't guards they can be made redundant by the next franchise operators).

Unions, always ****ing things up by trying to look after the interests of their members, while at the same time daring to prioritise safety over profit, the bastards

We've had 20 years of a rail service, sold too cheaply to the private sector, asset stripped of land, buildings etc for profit, shareholder dividends, a doubling in the size of subsidy from the taxpayer, massive increases in fares over this period, and a service that can barely handle the increase in users, too little investment in the infrastructure which we were told that the main reason for privatisation was to access private capital, only the organisation(railtrack) turned out to be utter sh*t,back under Government control who now want to privatise it again.

I mean, who in their right mind would do this sort of thing again? Oh, hang on, Royal mail, sold too cheaply, with the main reason for privatisation was to access private capital, shareholder dividends taking £600 million out of it in three years, cuts to services...

And you people complain about unions?

Who is the enemy again?

The solution??

Ultimately, the solution is to find other jobs for the people displaced by this step towards automation. People who once did jobs like sticking labels on jam jars were made redundant by machines, and had to find work as sysadmins etc. We need to re-employ the guards in a useful way. Apparently we have a lack of carers for dementia sufferers, so maybe that is an obvious direction to look, given the guards' experience in dealing with the problems of commuters?

Who is right? the Germans with their co operative approach to industrial relations rather than the adversarial approach we have here.

Who is right? the Germans with their co operative approach to industrial relations rather than the adversarial approach we have here.

Well, Theresa May has promised to insist on workers' reps on the board.

Oh, hang on a mo....

How about the Scandies?

You can't replace trains with them, silly!

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Erm... actually.....

And you lot of selfish strikers have been joined by another bunch of tosserz at Heathrow.

#1970'sbritaininthe21stcentury

[b]Join the revolution comrade!!!!![/b]

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Don't worry, bikebuoy, there's more to come

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#1930'sbritaininthe21stcentury

Who is right? the Germans with their co operative approach to industrial relations rather than the adversarial approach we have here.

Just as well we have Brexit to keep us safe from such forward thinking.

Personally, I think our unions are as much an obstacle to cooperative relations as the businesses themselves. There is a role for unions in our society, it just isn't the role they are currently doing.

In this instance, I think that there are legitimate safety concerns due to the driver's visibility (or lack thereof). Southern could address these, but aren't doing so. The union could also work towards a good DOO solution, but would rather keep our railways in a mess.

I rather fancy binding pendulum arbitration to settle industrial disputes. It might stop everybody being quite so bloody minded about things.

grumpy - I would tend to agree. Its the them and us mentality that annoys. Unions have to try to defend the workers - that what they are there for an with the law as it is the cards are stacked in the employers favour. A lot of employers ( as it would appear in this case) forget that satisfied workers give good service so keeping the workforce happy is good for your business.

Under the german model there is much more incentive to settle disputes by agreement not by grinding the other side down as both sides have a stake in the business and this is obvious. Strikes usually have no winners but what else could the unions do here? Its obvious that the aim of the employers is to reduce costs by downgrading roles reducing workforce and the employers have also been intransigent.

I think the safety aspect may well have been overplayed by the unions but equally its a perfectly valid argument.

Personally, I think our unions are as much an obstacle to cooperative relations as the businesses themselves.

what's the old adage...You get the Union you deserve..?

It is the last gasp of old-time unionism.

The word I heard from someone in the industry is that the RMT don't want to lose at least some of their members having "safety-critical" jobs which can be used as a strike tool.

The TV screens are in the cabs already, lots of operators do Drivers shutting the doors. Southern is a particurly bad franchise, worse than SE or SW - and I use all three regularly, but this time this one is fair and square on the RMT.

Binners is having a field day on this thread.....pictures of Farage, Wolfy and Corbyn in swift succession! 😮

Someone in the industry? a member of management no doubt who want those pesky unions crushed so they can make greater profits?

At least, this is one where we are all in it together - in addition to the cancellations, its the tax payers that bear the burden of lost revenue here. Still cheap in the context of comradeship.

how about we just sell off all SR trains to other countries that need them/can run them effectively.
replace the tracks with large cycleways spanning the entire South.
i hate using the trains.
i hate using buses.
whenever i use my bike, i get to where i am going and enjoy the journey - [u]and i get there on time[/u]. regardless of the weather.
this also solves the issue of 'sharing' the roads with the c**ty cagers.
why we need to dance around debating who's right and wrong when really we just need to strip it all down to something a lot more simple and manageable.

plus i want an excuse to get myself a nice tourer bike.

The word I heard from someone in the industry is........

An anonymous person quotes [i]"someone"[/i]

Who can argue with that ?

Welcome back Ernie - there is a very bland thread that needs you. How is your old mate getting on, not too down about the crap ratings I hope?

Good point Binners.
Staying with the Perrin theme,
I think we've established that the only people against this glorious step forward are:
Wreckers of law and order. Communists, Maoists, Trotskyists, neo-Trotskyists, crypto-Trotskyists, union leaders, Communist union leaders, atheists, agnostics, long-haired weirdos, short-haired weirdos, vandals, hooligans, football supporters, namby-pamby probation officers, rapists, papists, papist rapists, foreign surgeons - headshrinkers, who ought to be locked up, Wedgwood Benn, keg bitter, punk rock, glue-sniffers, "Play For Today", Clive Jenkins, Roy Jenkins, Up Jenkins, up everybody's, Chinese restaurants - why do you think Windsor Castle is ringed with Chinese restaurants?

you are Tom Robinson and I claim my £5 !

😉

teamhurtmore - Member
Welcome back Ernie - there is a very bland thread that needs you.

TJ and Ernie - Someone with no connection to any train operators in the South - who was watching with wry amusement and no financial or self-interest at all.

Here? - semi-amused/interested observer Rusty. But relieved that I no longer have to use Southern from CJ to V'toria. That was bad enough and only about 10 mins long.

I was looking forward to Ernie's inside knowledge about Jezza actually. He knows more than the rest of us there.

Stoatsbrother - Member

The TV screens are in the cabs already, lots of operators do Drivers shutting the doors.

This is the bit that confuses me, how do the screens work? For a 12 car train (not unusual on southern) are there 24 screens? Or does the driver have to flick through screens for each door, in which case the drift times at stations will increase by a lot!

Fairy snuff stoatsbrother. A senior manager tho?

Ernie - where you been hiding? Nice to see you back

Wahaaaay. The Croydon Communist is back! Welcome back amongst us comrade 😀

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I imagine the screens work about as well as a bloke squinting down the length of the train, it's not like the guards walk the length of the platform checking each door is clear before closing it.

I would have thought an automated system that won't let the train move off if any of the doors are obstructed or not closed is safer than relying on a falable human. Seems to work for lifts.

It looks like the people are in ... Carry On At Your Convenience ... 😛

I would have thought an automated system that won't let the train move off if any of the doors are obstructed or not closed is safer than relying on a falable human. Seems to work for lifts.

Major issue there is that the trains are regularly overcrowded so would often have someone blocking the door which would make the trains even later, especially if you've made the person responsible and able to make sure that doesn't happen redundant.

I can't help thinking in these days of "health and safety gone mad", current H&S at work legislation (you know the legislation that has criminal penalties including prison for directors) and litigation culture that a TOC carrying 300,000 passengers a day might just have done a proper risk assessment of this change.

I come back to my earlier suggestion that what's needed in this kind of dispute is a court (or other body of appropriate jurisdiction) that can properly assess two correctly pleaded points of view with expert evidence that is cross examined. This is where I think the future role of the unions could be. They will be the bodies who can assemble and coordinate the evidence for the "workers" funded by subs as now. A less destructive, more independent process and it doesn't involve distress and major inconvenience to the general public.

As for the profit and shareholder bashing just a quick reminder that the majority shareholders in most big businesses are in fact ordinary working people's pension companies and savings companies (eg share ISAs). The generation of profit also feeds the tax system (perhaps with a few exceptions) and that pays for public services. So whether you're in a private or public sector scheme or just getting state pension you need those profits to be made (unless we are going for the communism model?).

Shuhhhhhhhhhhsh.

They're all asleep, tucked up under thier protective wing of the Union. Wake them up now and they'll not turn up for work in the morning..

😆

Unlike us lot, who have to struggle to get in.

Tosserz

I would have thought an automated system that won't let the train move off if any of the doors are obstructed or not closed is safer than relying on a falable human. Seems to work for lifts.

quite a few trap and drag accidents still happen on trains.

I come back to my earlier suggestion that what's needed in this kind of dispute is a court (or other body of appropriate jurisdiction) that can properly assess two correctly pleaded points of view with expert evidence that is cross examined. This is where I think the future role of the unions could be. They will be the bodies who can assemble and coordinate the evidence for the "workers" funded by subs as now. A less destructive, more independent process and it doesn't involve distress and major inconvenience to the general public.

i refer you back to the death of a young lady who fell betwen a train and platform at james street station liverpool raib report and ORR reports

Do RMT affiliated drivers currently operate any driver only trains?

tut, tut 😉

A simple question... If you're in a train crash, would you rather there was a guard on the train?

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Do RMT affiliated drivers currently operate any driver only trains?

Almost certainly, but so what?