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When you say “can’t get a signal” what do you mean – doesn’t it connect into your WiFi, or is it looking for a Mobile signal?
I wonder how big a problem this is. 6 attempts @solarider? We've had similar with Octopus (who outsource the Smart Meter install to someone else). We need an aerial but they just keep coming and changing the meter. which unsurprisingly doesn't fix the problem!
It's one of the reasons we're probably not buying a second EV as our overnight Tariff isn't bad (old economy 7) but it's nowhere near what we signed up for.
When I was looking at which car to replace the Koraq with I kept coming back to the Mazda SkyActiv range (not the SUV). More I think about it tho, prob just buy the Koraq, it's balloon payment is 1.5k under what it's worth so worse case I'll get a better trade than giving it straight back.
And why does at EV need a 15000 mile service interval?
Ev's dont have an engine or gearbox to service , but all the other mechanical parts still need looking at, so;
- brake system
- Suspension dampers
- suspension bushes/ball joints etc
- CV joints
- steering system
- cabin air filters
- windscreen wipers
- cooling/heating systems
So I can see why they need a service at similar intervals to an ICE car, but I'd expect that service to cost a bit less.
The existing generation of batteries degrade over time. That’s an inescapable fact. Their ability to hold charge diminishes over time. We have friends and family with 10 year old hybrids and EVs (Prius, Leaf) and the batteries have significantly diminished.
That is true, but there are a couple of things to consider:
- Prius batteries are small and very primitive compared to current EVs. Mine had NiMH batteries for a start, not even Li-ion - a 10 year old vintage may have the same.
- 10 year old EVs are ancient tech, and the Leaf was famous for poor battery longevity in its first two model years. Pretty much any other modern EV is much more sophisticated and will not experience that kind of degradation. Of course, there will be random failures with some cars as there are with any part of any other car, but whilst there will be a few % degradation in the first year or two, this slows down and stabilises quite quickly. This is also accounted for by the car, because 100% charge is not really 100%, so that this normal degradation does not show up in the range stats.
I've been giving this a bit of thought as our main car is getting to the the age where I'd normally think of changing it. It's a confusing landscape that's for sure, but here are a few things I think I've learnt. Although I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong about them all 🙂
My approach to car buying, which involves buying something new outright (with a good discount) then driving it for around 150k miles (about 6-7 years in my case) then trading it in for another car, is now considered downright weird.
The market for new EVs is driven almost entirely by tax breaks. It's company car schemes (were the employer writes off the car against capital gains and the employee gets a better BIK tax rate) or salary sacrifice (where you are allowed to pay for it from your pre-tax salary). Basically the state is subsidising the automotive industry to make the switch to EVs. That's fair enough, but it means that buying a new EV outright with your own (post-tax) money is not a good proposition. Leasing one doesn't look any more attractive to me either, but it looks as though plenty of people are happy to pay around £5k a year for the "privilege" of borrowing a car that they can only drive a set number of miles in. So again, maybe it's me that's weird.
Discussions of the running costs also never seem to mention the fact that most of the running costs of an ICE car is tax. Last time I looked our public services weren't awash with cash, so if we all switched to EVs the government would still need to take that tax off us somehow. Again this is just the state providing a subsidy to encourage people to switch to EVs. That's fair enough. but just be aware that the tax landscape could change quite significantly over the life of the car.
Cheap overnight electricity is only available because there aren't many EVs is use yet.
Currently lots of people who got EVs as company cars on short lease schemes are handing those back. So the market is awash with low mileage (assuming they haven't been "corrected") EVs, which has brought the prices down quite considerably. Don't be fooled by the "this car cost £xx new" hype. Nobody paid that for it (see above) but if you want, say, a two year old car with <15k on the clock there are EVs that look to be a similar price to an equivalent ICE car now. They should be cheaper to run. At least until the government works out how to get all that tax back from EV drivers.
Reluctance from buyers to purchase those second hand EVs (which is what is keeping the price down) is mostly driven by ignorance. I don't mean that in an unkind way. I just mean that nobody really knows how long those cars will last. My hunch is that a modern EV (with all the intelligent charging software) should last as long as an ICE car, especially if it is (mostly) charged slowly overnight rather than rapid charging.
Driving an EV does require a change in attitude, but a lot of the concerns are down to the charging infrastructure, which is changing rapidly.
The difficulty in repairing EV batteries is a concern. That's capitalism for you. Why would a manufacturer make a battery easy to repair if their market is mainly people who want to lease a new car for a couple of years? But on the flip side, if the market is there, we will get companies springing up who will offer to repair these.
I think insurance costs are largely a red-herring and are caused by the media not comparing like with like. A 3,000kg car that can do 0-62mph in under four seconds is going to be expensive to insure.
Environmental arguments are rather complex, but personally I don't think we can fix problems that were caused by over consumption by buying more stuff. You can make the case that, if you are buying a new car anyway, an EV is (probably) better for the environment. But in most cases you don't actually need a new car you just want one and keeping the existing one is probably the more environmental choice (whatever it is fuelled by).
My approach to car buying, which involves buying something new outright (with a good discount) then driving it for around 150k miles (about 6-7 years in my case) then trading it in for another car, is now considered downright weird.
I should say so. You'd be far better off buying something 2 years old and doign the same thing. At the end of your 150k mile period you'd end up in pretty much the same place - there's little difference between a 6 year old car and an 8 year old one - but you'd have spent half as much money to get there!
The difficulty in repairing EV batteries is a concern. That’s capitalism for you. Why would a manufacturer make a battery easy to repair if their market is mainly people who want to lease a new car for a couple of years?
They are quite repairable when they degrade. It's already easy to get your Leaf battery pack refurbished, a few cells replaced for a reasonable sum. I am not sure what happens if they get mangled in a crash though. But I think the issue for insurers is finding repairers who are prepared to go near the cars in the first place.
I don’t think we can fix problems that were caused by over consumption by buying more stuff.
We will always have over-consumption. The question is that when it really becomes time for a new car, do you want to buy an EV or an ICE? Our previous car was written off. Currently we have a big diesel and an EV that I don't really like driving a long way, however it's not worth the money to replace the diesel with an EV no matter how much I want to because it does so few miles. I think our best option in the future might be to replace the Leaf with something a bit more capable that would allow us to drive it all the time except on caravan holidays.
Roverpig - you could probably swap EV for ICE in your post, example:
Leasing one doesn’t look any more attractive to me either, but it looks as though plenty of people are happy to pay around £5k a year for the “privilege” of borrowing a car that they can only drive a set number of miles in. So again, maybe it’s me that’s weird.
That's been happening for years with non-EV's, how else do you think ordinary folk 'afford' all the expensive cars you see them in?
So it’s looking for a mobile signal?
Any specific provider?
The SIM inside the charger smart meter will connect to any provider it can find, similar to when you make a 999 call.
Yup - we have tried all carriers and none of them work. And they won't use wifi calling off our home wifi. We do get a signal at the front of the house, and Octopus DO have a solution (called a T3 external aerial), what they don't have is the wherewithal to actually install it rather than keep swapping the meter!
It's now with the ombudsman. Not sure that'll help.
Interesting post that @roverpig
You’d be far better off buying something 2 years old and doign the same thing. At the end of your 150k mile period you’d end up in pretty much the same place – there’s little difference between a 6 year old car and an 8 year old one – but you’d have spent half as much money to get there!
Yes, I'm coming to that conclusion too. Six years ago I got a new car with a list price of £24k for £20k by paying cash and there wasn't that big a saving on a nearly new car at the time. The equivalent model now costs nearly £32k new with nowhere near the same savings available, but two year old models look a lot more attractive. I'm still not sure whether a two year old EV is a sensible choice, but it's certainly an option worth considering.
Our previous car was written off.
Fair enough, you really did need a new car then 🙂 Maybe I should have said "I don't really need a new car I just want one" as I could probably keep the current one going to at least 200k miles and that's probably better for the environment that buying a new(er) car.
That’s been happening for years with non-EV’s, how else do you think ordinary folk ‘afford’ all the expensive cars you see them in?
Yes, you are right, that shift to PCP and then to leasing cars pre-dates EVs and is just another aspect of modern life that I don't understand. That's the joy of getting older I guess 🙂
PCP is attractive because you get a nice new car regularly, and it is a manageable cost. I have no chance in hell of being able to afford to buy say, a new Nissan Ariya, but I could afford to lease one. I did lease the Ioniq, because it was stupidly cheap at the time and we got 2 years of electric motoring for the same monthly outlay as buying a 10-12 year old Prius. I didn't realise how the process worked at the end of the lease and I now think I could have bought the car at a good price which would have been a pretty good deal and I do regret not spending the extra. The Leaf was cheaper but it's really not as good.
I’m still not sure whether a two year old EV is a sensible choice
This is an interesting question. From an engineering point of view I'd say yes, absolutely. There's basically two moving parts in an EV's drive train, as opposed to thousands in an ICE along with loads of electronics subject to heat and vibration all the time. The engine bay of an EV gets lukewarm on long trips and there's no vibration to deal with, so the electronics should last ages. The battery itself - normal degradation should be absolutely fine for 15 years or so, but there's the chance a cell will fail - and these are repairable. People post their Leaf problems on the Facebook group and people do have cell failures. Most issues however are to do with infotainment or similar, or the 12V battery which is a bit of a weak spot on those cars. They last about as long as they do on an ICE but people don't tend to notice as it works until it suddenly doesn't one cold morning. There are some cars with generally weak batteries but they are 2011-2013 cars which are old, were very much a first attempt, and the cars are only worth a few grand so that factors into their repair prospects. But it must be stressed that Leafs are very crude compared to modern cars, and even then the latest Leafs are much better than the early efforts. There is still no battery cooling but the management software is a lot better from 2014 on, and more so on the second gen cars.
I did feel I was putting my money where my mouth is when I bought it. I replaced a wheel bearing - to be honest it was not that bad and I doubt I'd have noticed it over an engine noise. The only other issues currently are a fairly scruffy interior, and the loose glovebox door, but I've wrapped some tape around the hinges now and that seems to have helped a lot. The range is poor in cooler weather, and I'm still not sure why as the heating and lights etc don't add up to enough power consumption to reduce the range by as much as I see - which is about 20% - I suspect this is down to the battery itself being cold.
I have no chance in hell of being able to afford to buy say, a new Nissan Ariya, but I could afford to lease one.
As I say, it's probably just a sign of age and not understanding how the modern world works, but I've never understood this. Lease companies aren't charities, so whatever you pay must at least cover the depreciation of the car. Given that most depreciation happens in the first couple of years, leasing a new car every couple of years sounds like the most expensive way possible of "owning" a car. But there is no doubt that it is a popular option, so I must be missing something.
Lease companies aren’t charities, so whatever you pay must at least cover the depreciation of the car. Given that most depreciation happens in the first couple of years, leasing a new car every couple of years sounds like the most expensive way possible of “owning” a car. But there is no doubt that it is a popular option, so I must be missing something.
The difference is that if I buy it I have to a) get hold of £45k to begin with which isn't easy, and b) even if I can, chances are I'll have to pay it back over 5 years. That means a very large monthly payment, and unless I have a big pile of savings I've got no way of offsetting my monthly payments against the eventual sale price of the car. The lease companies can borrow money on completely different terms*, secured on the future sale of the car and its value.
* Actually, I can borrow money on those terms - it's called PCP..
Fair enough @molgrips. I was brought up to believe that you didn’t buy a car (or anything other than a house) unless you had the money in the bank. So I spent many years driving bangers until I could afford something half decent. Even now my budget for replacing the car is limited by whatever I have in savings. It’s a different mindset I guess and I’m not saying it is right. <br /><br />
You make a good point about the potential longevity of EVs. This has always been a big attraction for me. I don’t really care about cars. I just want something comfortable that will go wherever I want to go, has a good infotainment system and is reliable. In theory EVs offered the promise of cars that would run for hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance. In practice though we seem to have got very complicated and very heavy cars that accelerate like a super car but are not any more reliable than the average ICE car.
I was brought up to believe that you didn’t buy a car (or anything other than a house) unless you had the money in the bank.
Personally I don't think credit is inherently bad - just unmanageable credit.
I'm sure you are not alone in that view 🙂
I'm not trying to claim any moral high ground here. My approach to finance is very simple and risk-averse. I dare say I could have made more money if I was willing to take on more debt/risk. Each to their own though and we are getting rather off topic.
Reluctance from buyers to purchase those second hand EVs (which is what is keeping the price down) is mostly driven by ignorance. I don’t mean that in an unkind way. I just mean that nobody really knows how long those cars will last. My hunch is that a modern EV (with all the intelligent charging software) should last as long as an ICE car, especially if it is (mostly) charged slowly overnight rather than rapid charging.
I don't think its that, I think its simply the issue that most people who could spend £25k on a car are likely to have access to a company car\salary sacrifice scheme - and its simply just as cheap (let alone the lackl of hassle\niceness of a new car) to get a brand spanking new £40k model through salary sacrifice (which will lose £20k in 3 years) than it would be to buy a 3 year old model at £25k that will only lose £10k over the next 3 years. Once the cars get cheap enough that its cheaper to run than a company car, the prices will firm up
Salary sacrifice is certainly a major driver of EV adoption.
My hunch is that a modern EV (with all the intelligent charging software) should last as long as an ICE car, especially if it is (mostly) charged slowly overnight rather than rapid charging.
I think that the issue with rapid charging was largely heat, and these days a decent car will cool or warm the battery efficiently so it may not be a problem. With NMC cells it seems that at 100% charge the electrolyte slowly degrades, so the consensus on the Leaf FB group seems to be that if you charge to 100% and leave there, on a regular basis, you're accelerating the decline of the battery. But it's a slow decline so if say, you work a late shift, and you were in the habit of charging to 100% overnight and it sit at 100% there from 5am til 4pm every day of its life, the battery would be in worse condition after a number of years. But if your car was a taxi and it was taken off charge at 5am and immediately driven, you'd be better off.
I was brought up to believe that you didn’t buy a car (or anything other than a house) unless you had the money in the bank.
Is that the same school of thought that a country's finances are the same as a households?
Cashflow is key, why spend all your cash on a depreciating asset and then be skint when you could pay an affordable amount each month and worse case scenario, they took it back.
I had the cash to buy my last car but I was offered PCP at less than 1% pa, so I took it and then paid the lump off at 4 years. All my bikes came on interest free too, and even luckier that inflation has meant that they worked out as 'discounted' too 🙂
Cashflow is key, why spend all your cash on a depreciating asset and then be skint when you could pay an affordable amount each month and worse case scenario, they took it back.
You're still paying for the depreciation either way - but with leasing you're also paying someone else's salary. The benefit I think is the terms and conditions - effectively you're securing a loan on the car.
My problem with leasing is that I didn't know if I would have the chance to buy. If I had, I probably would have been prepared for it and arranged the money earlier. I think with PCP you know what the final payment will be up-front.
"The SIM inside the charger smart meter will connect to any provider it can find, similar to when you make a 999 call."
The network in the UK IIRC was split into 2 parts, north and south. Up north it doesn't run through mobile data, think it's RF. Down south, the contract was won by Telefonica and it needs to connect to O2 on 2G or 3G and Vodaphone on 4G if my research is correct. Both networks have to be fully secure. This applies to SMETS2 meters.
I'm in the same position, no O2 coverage in location, but a neighbour about 5M up the hill has got a functional smart meter. So I need a T3 aerial to see if I can get useable signal. I believe the meters can locally share data, like a mesh, so you may be able to piggyback to another.
For those having trouble, this link below might help you to guide your service provider. There's a table about half way which goes through the options. I had my meter installed and checked but no dice, so I need Octopus to sort out a T3 or a Mesh aerial externally.
Some interesting stuff in here, thanks all please keep it coming.
5lab - i-pace eh? There is one, that weirdly is right in budget, has literally every feature that we would want in a car (even non leather seats!) but is quite a jaunt away and has done a few more miles than is ideal. I will spend the next few days researching that idea to death. Mixed bag reliability wise, but it ticks so many boxes it might be worth a day trip…
worse case scenario, they took it back.
Worst case scenario is more that you default on the lease, they take back possession of the car and you're still liable for whatever the cancellation costs are under the lease.
https://www.whatcar.com/car-leasing/leasing-guide/how-can-i-get-out-of-a-car-leasing-agreement/
Ah yes, another key down side to leasing for me is that if you lose your job you're still tied in to the lease. Having bought older cars with loans, I haven't been in negative equity for long, and not by much. I reckon I'm in the black currently. This means I could in an emergency flog both cars.
Worst case scenario is more that you default on the lease, they take back possession of the car and you’re still liable for whatever the cancellation costs are under the lease.
I wasn't going into full details etc but if you're in that bad a state probably easier not even to give it back 🙂
5lab – i-pace eh? There is one, that weirdly is right in budget, has literally every feature that we would want in a car (even non leather seats!) but is quite a jaunt away and has done a few more miles than is ideal. I will spend the next few days researching that idea to death. Mixed bag reliability wise, but it ticks so many boxes it might be worth a day trip…
I think the general rule with JLRs is don't buy one out of warranty. Esp if you don't shit fivers.
@Ewan - yes that is what the research is saying, looking very likely that a Kia Sportage will be the best compromise, I think in a year the answer would have been completely different, but unfortunately we need to change this spring.
Part of me is tempted to buy an absolute shitter for a few months and see what happens, but we do spend quite a bit of time in the car at weekends and somewhere nice to be is a nice thing.
Just to add another perspective. There is something quite liberating about an ‘old shitter’ as long as it is reliable. Not worrying about it as much, where you park it, washing it etc and knowing that it is saving you a fortune is quite a nice feeling, particularly if you are unsure about the longer term plan. <br /><br />
We have always had nice cars in the UK, but when we have lived overseas given the uncertainty around how long we would stay we have always gone down the ‘old shitter’ route and it has been great. <br /><br />
Not advocating and I too enjoy spending time in a nice car for a prolonged duration but it’s really not as bad as you might fear.
I've been driving an old shitter for years (57 plate mondeo), albeit a reliable one. This year is probably the year I give in and replace it with something - the used car market doesn't seem to be dropping significantly. Time to bite the bullet.
I’m in the same position, no O2 coverage in location, but a neighbour about 5M up the hill has got a functional smart meter. So I need a T3 aerial to see if I can get useable signal. I believe the meters can locally share data, like a mesh, so you may be able to piggyback to another.
Not wishing to derail this thread but that's very useful info @richpenny
Didn't see a link tho, can you post one? I'd be very interested to see our coverage (or lack of it). We have three houses with the meters co-located all wanting a smartmeter. So a T3 aerial would sort all our problems. But then I saw 'telefonica' and just died a bit inside 😉
Oh I've now started looking at used Octavia vRS estates. So there's that 🙂
There is one, that weirdly is right in budget, has literally every feature that we would want in a car (even non leather seats!) but is quite a jaunt away and has done a few more miles than is ideal. I will spend the next few days researching that idea to death. Mixed bag reliability wise, but it ticks so many boxes it might be worth a day trip…
I'd just pop in and see one at your local audi dealership. Doesn't need to be exactly the same one to get an idea of whether its a car you like
In theory an EV should be more reliable than an ICE car as there is really very little to go wrong. A (permeant) magnet, a coil of wire and a battery in place of that complex internal combustion engine. Yet, according to this link, EVs suffer 80% more problems than ICE cars, which is a bit of a worry. That Jag does look a lot of car for the money, but not if it is going to keep breaking down on you.
You have to take those reports with a pinch of salt as there are so many people wanting to do a hatchet job on EVs in general. It talks about stuff like panel gaps, which is really a Tesla issue for example. And of course, there's a big difference between problems with new car and problems with 15 year old cars as there are many many times more things to wear out on an ICE as previously said which will definitely wear out eventually.
Yet, according to this link, EVs suffer 80% more problems than ICE cars, which is a bit of a worry.
Early tech adoption? 'Breakdowns' perhaps covers all sorts of technical issues - including things like 'my fancy pants touchscreen does not respond'....
That's a US report so prety much a Tesla reliability report given the extent to which Tesla dominate in the US:
https://www.energysage.com/electric-vehicles/most-popular-evs/
And Teslas don't score well on reliability in the US:
Fair points. “Problems” does cover a multitude of sins. Personally I’d like to know whether an EV is more or less likely to leave me stranded by the side of the road, but I can’t seem to find that information.
I'm going to be changing my car later this year and this thread has given me the wants for an I-Pace. The issue I'd have is trips to see my folks - they are 220 miles away so i should be able to get there on a full charge but how would I charge it when I get there, public charger or from their mains?
they are 220 miles away so i should be able to get there on a full charge but how would I charge it when I get there, public charger or from their mains?
I'd work out where the nearest fast charger is on your chosen route and spend a few minutes adding the required charge to make it back home. Even if you spend £5 it should be worth it given the savings over petrol or diesel?
I've been skimming through the second hand market based on this thread also. I would like roof rack capability and a decent boot but for around £14k I could buy another high spec corsa e (the same as I bought last year) as a replacement for my Roomster and occasionally hire a van with the money saved on buying a car with a roof rack?
I like the idea of a combi e van type ev as well. Plenty of room but nearer £20k for a low milage option.
Everyone I know with an (ICE) JLR goes on about how many times they've had to take it back to the dealer. Maybe the EV versions are more reliable, but er, seems unlikely.
for around £14k I could buy another high spec corsa e (the same as I bought last year) as a replacement for my Roomster and occasionally hire a van with the money saved on buying a car with a roof rack?
what do you need a roofrack for? seasuckers might do the job
they are 220 miles away so i should be able to get there on a full charge
Only if you travel quite slowly on the motorway and go in the summer, evdb reckons an ipace has a 210mile range at 70mph in summer, but yes is potentially doable without stopping.
You could charge from a 3 pin plug, but it'll take around 40 hours to get back to 100%,so it's probably not a practical option. Best bet is to find a fast charger nearby and top up.
If you are looking at an ipace you might also want to check out the Audi etron. There seem to be tons of them (so prices are pretty keen) and by all accounts they are more reliable. Personally I’d have to get over my “wouldn’t be seen dead in an Audi” prejudice though 🙂
how would I charge it when I get there
you might also want to check out the Audi etron
Terribly inefficient though – real electron guzzlers.
Surely not significantly worse than an Ipace though?
Edit,the audi looks about 7% worse according to evdb
Dunno about the iPace but I think 3 miles/kWh is a distant dream for an eTron from what I've heard.