[Closed] socialism vs capitalism......

As the Prison Governors Association are suggesting we stop short term jail sentences. How about getting all the petty criminals to 'dig roads and shovel crap' as community service. They might even learn as skill while they're at it.

It's clear that none of you Scandinavian fanboys have the remotest grasp of economic systems like what I have...

[url= http://www.pintprice.com/top10expensive.php ]Norway, £6.00 for a pint of lager[/url]
That is a failed economic model IMO. End of thread 😉

Stoner - Member

According to my Irish neighbours, it costs that much for a Guinness in Dublin.

Plus all the Norwegans I knew got pissed on home brew before they went to the pub.

As the Prison Governors Association are suggesting we stop short term jail sentences. How about getting all the petty criminals to 'dig roads and shovel crap' as community service. They might even learn as skill while they're at it.

The people who are paid to dig the roads and to shovel crap might be a bit annoyed about that.

According to my Irish neighbours, it costs that much for a Guinness in Dublin.

And that's only before nine o'clock!

The people who are paid to dig the roads and to shovel crap might be a bit annoyed about that.

They will need teaching and supervising. Why not pay them to do that?

From Stonor's pintprice website....

[i] AA Milne's Bottom
A fine and hearty brew from the Abbey of Sputum. The monks mix their phlegm with the hand picked bakers yeast and festering semen. A spunky beverage. 4 Stars in the Drunken Monk. No need to drink a lot of beer in order to vomit, have just one of these. It's like drinking c** - Silly Goolden (wine and beer expert). [/i]

Stoner - Member

Norway, £6.00 for a pint of lager
That is a failed economic model IMO. End of thread

What do you think of Iceland as an economic model Stoner ? Did Dan Hannan get it right ?

[i]£6 for a pint[/i]

Tangent to the thread, please.

Whilst of yer usual mixed British (in my case Anglo/Irish) descent, I have a Scandinavian surname - one which I suspect is the residual consequence of a [i]quite different[/i] economic model (raiding and pillage). Maybe we should try that?

What do you think of Iceland as an economic model Stoner

Iceland were brought down by a bad marketing strategy IMO
[img] [/img]

noteeth = Hagar The Horrible!

I knew it!

Seems that the choice was 'do you want to live in a nice place but have little disposeable income?' or 'do you want to live in a sh*thole but have lots of cash to spend on toys?

Scandinavia chose option 1, UK chose 2.

Iceland were brought down by a bad marketing strategy IMO

How was Kerry Katona involved in Iceland's marketing strategy Stoner ? ......... forgive me, I don't read the tabloids.

she defected to the Columbians.

forgive me, I don't read the tabloids

Isn't the Morning Star a tabloid?

Norway, Iceland, what's the difference between one bunch of suicidal alcoholics and another? 🙂

Robespierre - Member

To the utter w**nker who reckons that 'the socialist experiment' has bred a weak and enfeebled population etc. [...] You are beneath contempt.

Well you must have stooped incredibly low to hold me as such. 🙄

You sound surprised that someone has taken the STW eugenics enthusiast to task, enfht? No problem with being called left wing cos that's what I am. Usually ignore the low level right wing mumble from this forum but did you read the post? Bloke's just plain ignorant...we are born helpless, sunk in.... Sssssssshhhhhhhhccccccccwwwwwwsssssscccchhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I'm sorry, that's just white noise.

hmm socialism worked well for the russians, is working well for the cubans and the north koreans.
Ernie, you're being very balanced for a change - turning over a new leaf? 😀
BTW, Che was bessies with Castro. They say you can judge a lot by the company a man keeps.

I'm sorry, that's just white noise.

Woah there Adam... I mean Forking. I think the latest leaflets for the village fete just rolled off the presses... 🙂

There are some very strange folk round here...

Indeed. Why would anyone want to re-join an internet discussion forum that they have been repeatedly banned from, and start spouting the same ridiculous invective that got them into trouble in the first place? 😕

Why would anyone want to re-join an internet discussion forum that they have been repeatedly banned from, and start spouting the same ridiculous invective that got them into trouble in the first place?

RudeBoy's back?! 😮

Ernie, you're being very balanced for a change - turning over a new leaf?

You must be confusing me with someone else.

I don't take a balanced view on anything - it's all from a class-conscious socialist perspective.

And I don't care very much for your accusation that I've become some sort wishy-washy guardian reading, liberal type. If that's what you're suggesting ......

"socialist worker" only for you i supose.

Cuba - works very well - by most things better than the USA despite the illegal blockade.

More doctors per head of population, lower infant mortality, higher life expectancy for starters.

The USSR was a totalitarian regime not socialist.

RudeBoy's back?!

No, think of his opposite number in the pantheon of STW must-get-thread-to-100-posts twonkery. 🙂

backhander - Member

"socialist worker" only for you i supose.

You're bang out of order mate.

First you accuse me of being a Guardian reader. And now you accuse me of being a Trot. Not very nice.

Do I sound as if I learnt my politics at university ffs ?

Do I sound as if I learnt my politics at university ffs ?

No

There are some very strange folk round here...

Thats no way to speak about enfht...should be much more rude.

Oh, you were looking in the mirror when you said it?

Oh, you were looking in the mirror when you said it?

Let me guess. Your insult education extended no further than GCSE level... 🙄

Well i live in Norway. I moved here from Switzerland. Yes the taxes are high here and the cost of living (food, booze and cars) is high. But my salary is excellent and the standard of living here is brilliant and i think i agree with the report - Norway is a great place to live - as long as you dont wanna go out and get pissed in the pub every night. BTW Norway´s oil money is placed into a pension scheme to enable the wealth to benefit future generations of little viking pillagers.

Sorry TJ, but the US is 5th place in the quality of life scale, cuba is 108th (alongside mongolia and senegal). You're wrong about this one mate. It may be sunny but for its citizens, it's a sh1thole.

"There are some very strange folk round here..."

you were looking in the mirror when you said it?

LOL !

Your insult education extended no further than GCSE level...

I bet you're highly educated Forked Souls. Maybe as [i]even[/i] as highly educated as AdamG.
Well I [i]say[/i] as highly educated as AdamG, he at least, reckoned he was.

Personally, I always thought he was probably an underachiever who was constantly berated as a child by parents who considered him to have been something of a disappointment to them. He probably had an older brother who was cleverer than him. AdamG certainly felt the need to remind everyone on here just how intelligent he was. He was banned you know. For being a tw4t I believe. Which is a bit ironic really .......

Sorry, I can't remember why I was talking about AdamG............ oh yeah, he also recognised the importance of good education. So yeah, *thumbs up* for good education.

Name me the country which has no Chancellor of the Exchequer or finance minister because their job isn't required, as economy looks after itself and the market always knows best ?

There is no such thing as "full capitalism".

Because controlling the economy, is the most important job for any government to do in any capitalist country.

Well you'll be waiting a long time if you think I'm going to waste my time trying to have a serious discussion with you, after the bollox you wrote on the other thread.

Backhander - my point is its all about what you measure. In cuba you don't die of being too poor to afford healthcare. In the USA people do all the time.

mavisto - Member

"Do I sound as if I learnt my politics at university ffs ?"

No

Thank you mavisto. I was starting to ask myself 'what could I have said' 😐

.

[i]"the US is 5th place in the quality of life scale, cuba is 108th"[/i]

I couldn't find either of those countries in the 'quality of life scale' :

[url= http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-practice-news-columns/bond-beyond/quality-of-life-scale.aspx ]Quality of Life Scale[/url]

Although TJ [i]is[/i] quite wrong in suggesting that the USSR was fundamentally different to Cuba.

Do you even read your own posts?

Yeah I do Fatty. But you obviously don't read my posts. I said that you can't have a "fully capitalist" country.
I didn't say that there were no capitalist countries. Go back and read them again.

If we were communist he wouldn't be fat, less fortunate people would have eaten half his food.

[i]In cuba you don't die of being too poor to afford healthcare[/i]

Mmm, not totally convinced by that. You might not die as obviously, but the Cuban healthcare system (while admittedly far better than many 3rd world countries) still sees plenty of folk die who can't afford proper treatment. If Castro and his cronies get ill you can be sure they'll get far superior treatment to your average Cuban farmer.

Oh Mr Eugenics you excel yourself! 'Well you must have stooped incredibly low to hold me as such' after I've said that you are beneath comtempt...the sheer grace and poise of your retort...the distance from the school playground! What an advertisement for the master race you are.

Oh Mr Eugenics you excel yourself! 'Well you must have stooped incredibly low to hold me as such' after I've said that you are beneath comtempt...the sheer grace and poise of your retort...

You should take a bit more care when trying to deliver insults, rather than rolling out a load of stock clichés you've heard used by greater minds. 🙄

Mmm, not totally convinced by that. You might not die as obviously, but the Cuban healthcare system (while admittedly far better than many 3rd world countries) still sees plenty of folk die who can't afford proper treatment.

According to a study published in the medical journal 'The Lancet' [i][b]one million people have died[/b][/i] as a result of the collapse of socialism (communism to you probably) in Eastern Europe. This is as a direct result of the introduction Capitalism.

I suspect that is probably a conservative figure, and I think the study might be a couple of years old now, so the true figure is probably a bit more than that. One million is a lot. That's one million people who have been robbed of the most fundamental basic human right of all - the right to life. Which kinda of denies all their other basic human rights don't it ?

[url= http://news.softpedia.com/news/Privatization-Killed-a-Million-People-in-Eastern-Europe-102173.shtml ]Privatization Killed a Million People in Eastern Europe[/url]

The political blindness shown by some of the posters on this forum is truely disturbing. Oblivious to the good their percieved opposition has done and completely blinkered to the damage their own party has done.

[slight diversion]

I have not read the Lancet article, but the precis of it you link suggests rather that the increases in mortality rates are due to the stress and dislocation of changing one economic system for another and in particular to sudden changes in the way the labour market is organised.

I wonder therefore whether it says anything about capitalism really, or whether we might expect a similar spike in death rates if the UK were to be converted very rapidly into a socialist economy with radical redistribution of wealth and economic planning to create full employment?

Would huge numbers of us actually die early as a result the stress of making the adjustment?

Ernie, you could argue that equally socialism (the failure of) killed these people.
Ernie is quite correct, on the scale of economics all countries fall somewhere between free market and centrally controlled. No country is a perfect example of either.
I like the thought of socialism (it's nice and fluffy), but don't think it could ever work because of one reason; greed. Those in control will always have the most and this fundamentally ruins the whole theory (IMHO).
Classes are not something that impact my day to day. If someones a ****, I tell them "you're a ****". I don't care for their family name.

[img] [/img]

Comrades... one day, all these issues will be sorted out on one mighty big STW group ride. 😈

(Splendid [i]Dirt Rag[/i] cover, as ever. Props to Kevin Nierman).

What an amusing thread.

This is my take on the subject...

Without a degree of Capitalism in the UK, we wouldn't have such fancy bikes to spend our free time on.

Without a degree of Socialism in the UK, we wouldn't have free health care to patch us up after we've fallen off of them.

The majority of people on this forum benefit from Capitalism in more ways than they would like to admit, and benefit from Socialist policies in more ways than they would care to realise.

Can we start talking about bikes again because quite frankly, if none of us are politicians who have the power to change they way we live, all of this is just wasteful, opinionated wind and guff which is achieving nothing apart from p*ssing each other off.

I have not read the Lancet article...........

I did, but that was a while back. A very quick search threw that link. Yes you could put a spin on it which Mandelson himself would be proud of.

But the fact is that hundreds of thousands have died as a direct result of the collapse of socialism. According to the Lancet study a million people would not have died if this had not happened. I'm not really convinced by the suggestion that the [i]shock[/i] was the cause of all the problems - such as the collapse of life expectancies.

Surely we should be expecting [i]more[/i] people to be alive as a result of a superior economic system. The new problems which these countries are now experiencing are mostly on going and permanent....unemployment for example.

I like the thought of socialism (it's nice and fluffy), but don't think it could ever work because of one reason; greed.

You don't understand socialism (if you'll pardon me for saying so) It's not "nice and fluffy", and it recognises personal greed : "[i]To each according to their work[/i]" is the socialist mantra.

Can we start talking about bikes again because quite frankly, if none of us are politicians who have the power to change they way we live, all of this is just wasteful, opinionated wind and guff

contrariwise, we should be able to influence politicians if democracy has any meaning, and bikes are intrinsically dull, so bring it on :o)

which is achieving nothing apart from p*ssing each other off.

can there be a higher vocation ?

: "To each according to their work" is the socialist mantra.

"to each according to their need, from each according to their ability"

Classes are not something that impact my day to day. If someones a *, I tell them "you're a *". I don't care for their family name.

Indeed. That explains a lot.

simonfbarnes - Member

: "To each according to their work" is the socialist mantra.

"to each according to their need, from each according to their ability"

No it isn't.

I do know the difference between Communism and Socialism. Even if you don't.

Go and check Barnes.

Ernie - indeed, you could argue that hundreds of thousands died as a direct result of the collapse of Socialism in Russia

However of course, you could point towards the estimated seven million Ukranians who died in the formation of the great socialist paradise through collectivisation of farms by forcible means, though I'm sure you'd prefer to gloss over that aspect of things wouldnt you?

There you are Ratty ! ...............where you been mate ?

.

......yes, of course. "You could argue....."

Quote from Wiki.

For orthodox Marxists, socialism is the lower stage of communism based on the principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his work" while upper stage communism is based on the principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

And btw ...........

though I'm sure you'd prefer to gloss over that aspect of things wouldnt you?

I don't gloss over anything. I've already expressed my feelings for Stalin before. As I have indeed for Pol Pot.
I never did quite agreed with Margaret Thatcher that Pol Pot was a great guy.

But hey, I'm not going to let you play about the historic time-scale just to satisfy your usual diversionary tactics, ie. "let's keep changing the subject to suit me".

Quote from Wiki.

I've never heard that version before, and in fact it sounds made up, had Mark written it, it would have been "labour". Wikifiddling ?

Hadn't realised until tonight but I agree with Winston Churchill. I am totally sick of major government intervention in everything I do.

a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.

Donothing, what does it explain?

"let's keep changing the subject to suit..."

I saw this girl today, she must have been at least 12...so I asked her what she thought of libertarian socialism.

<Yawn>
You are a boring ****

Donothing, what does it explain?

You are quite obviously too stupid to understand.

Didn't Churchill also say "if you still believe in the sixth form ideal of socialism once you've actually lived life a little..you're as thick as sh1t" ... or words to that effect ! ! 😆

see last post

see last post

which one son?

Pleasure to oblige Ernie 🙂

Heres a nice thought for you:

[i] a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state.[/i]

Point me towards a Socialist government that has achieved libertarianism (Libertarian socialism?) and I'll gladly disappear back into my box...

my last one laddie

my last one laddie

backhander's penultimate post,

<Yawn>
You are a boring ****

Proved to be false by the fact he is now courting me, craving my attention.

a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom.

Is that the freedom to be selfish and materialistic?

is that the freedom to be selfish and materialistic?

Yes.

Is that the freedom to be selfish and materialistic?

If that is a freedom that you want to subcribe to, then yes!

I see you had quite a sale going a few weeks ago!

mavisto - Member
[b]Hadn't realised until tonigh[/b]t but I agree with Winston Churchill. I am totally sick of major government intervention in everything I do.

And pray tell, what type of govt has been interfering in your private business? Do you consider nulabour "socialist"?

Mavisto:
"[i]Hadn't realised until tonight but I agree with Winston Churchill. I am totally sick of major government intervention in everything I do.[/i]"

Quite right too.
Bloody government, provided me with education that my parents couldn't have afforded, kept my wife & kids alive through the health service, builds the roads I use, organised the utilities until they were privatised, pays for the police and army etc.

Just get rid of it, that's what I say.

If that is a freedom that you want to subcribe to, then yes!

I see you had quite a sale going a few weeks ago!

I dunno it just seems that mostly when people talk about wanting freedom from government intervention they mean freedom to be a selfish ****. ie freedom from speed cameras stopping them driving like a ****, or freedom from paying a bit of tax to pay for vital services.

mavisto - Member

I am totally sick of major government intervention in everything I do.

I have confess mavisto, that I am also intrigued in which way there has been 'major government intervention in everything you do'.

Do you own a bank ?

And why are you 'totally sick' of it ?

[i]organised the utilities until they were privatised[/i]

Hmm, who built the Utilities infrastructure? Socialist government or Capitalist entrepreneurs?

Or the Railways?

Ernie, maybe Mevisto agreed with another parent to share child care, and had OFSTED threatening to prosecute him?

I'd like the freedom to smoke fags in pubs with real men. Until that time arises, I'll reside abroad where I can draw pictures of my crotch in peace and use the Satchi Gallery to provide me with earnings above what I think is reasonable to pay taxes on.

And pray tell, what type of govt has been interfering in your private business? Do you consider nulabour "socialist"?

I didn't say interfering, I said intervening. For example, Taxing alcohol heavily to stop binge drinking. This has the effect of punishing the many for the actions of the few. It also means that the nice country pubs have to close because ordinary people that enjoy a quiet pint can't afford to drink in them.

Also, speed cameras. Attempt at mass control rather than actually catching the dangerous drivers.

I aslo think the compulsory wearing of seatbelts is an infringement of human rights. I should have the choice of going through the windscreen if I want to.

Oh and Nulabour are Thatcherite

I didn't say interfering, I said intervening.

And you avoided answering my simple question. But that's because you don't wish to admit that the evil capitalistical Tories are the source of most of your woe.

Edit. But you can edit I see...still, how does/did Socialism infringe your rights?