[Closed] Social Mobility

Soundbites, nothing more.

Possibly - but.....

No such thing......

So the board quit because the government doesn't show enough commitment...

Social mobility is dead in the water and will remain so indefinitely, a low growth/productivity economy shackled to an over priced housing market removes any chance of progression.

This will not improve with Brexit.

Social mobility does not change class barriers and inequalities. Just say your boss comes from a minority background, poor, crap school etc etc, would that make your experience of work any different? Social mobility is used to create the illusion that people in high places have deserved their position through talent and hard work and that 'anyone can make it' ('American Dream', America where there's less social mobility than anywhere). Now the absence of mobility makes that argument a bit more of a challenge so May is reduced to arguing that capitalism is dynamic and works for everyone. What she does not say is that it works for everyone, but in very very different ways.

No such thing......

Less now definitely, at fifteen I was homeless and parentless in northern town.

Whilst working full time I used council sponsored training and subsidised OU courses to dig myself out a hole. As a result the nation has had 35 yrs of paye tax, no criminal activity, a positive contribution to a community and some kids set to do better.

Neither of those training options are available now and were I to be in the same situation in 2017 I would probably make a living stealing TV’s

The right wing social mobility myth:

Debase education and charge for it, destroy communities, sell off industry, reward the richest and blame the poor.

Then scapegoat the most vulnerable and lie, lie, lie.

Is it any wonder people hate them?

The current Tories have no interest in helping anyone else but themselves.
They are scared and distainful of ordinary people.
Like spoilt children they have no wish to share and believe themselves entitled.

They appeal to the basest of instincts, because it's the easiest option and serves their purposes.

They are the very worst of humanity.

[quote=cinnamon_girl ]Soundbites, nothing more.
Explain please

Tempted to say your comment is the soundbite rather than their detailed explanation of why they have resigned

Agree with what everyone else says its part of the myth that because the odd few escape the boundaries and class ceilings its a meritocracy
Also agree that what we have now [ esp support] is less than we did have in the past

Neither of those training options are available now and were I to be in the same situation in 2017 I would probably make a living stealing TV’s

Trouble is now TVs are cheaper than they've ever been and they're getting so big you'd need two people to carry them so you'd end up having to split your ill-gotten gains. Double whammy.

The current Tories have no interest in helping anyone else but themselves.
They are scared and distainful of ordinary people.
Like spoilt children they have no wish to share and believe themselves entitled.

In terms of their actions yes - but I don't really understand who the words are for - when she gave her [url= https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/13/full-transcript-may-promises-bold-new-positive-role-for-britain-after-brexit/?utm_term=.bff35b0ffabd ]first speech as priminster[/url] .... who was that for? There doesn't seem to be anything there for the people who voted for the Tories and nothing there that anyone else would imagine that a conservative government would deliver on. I'm not sure who she was talking to.

maccruiskeen - Member

Trouble is now TVs are cheaper than they've ever been and they're getting so big you'd need two people to carry them so you'd end up having to split your ill-gotten gains. Double whammy.

You obviously too young to remember how heavy an old 25" tv was then

I think she does actually GAS about this* but Brexit is everything so nothing else is getting done

* one of the rare breed of christian tories who can remember what Christ said about helping the poor/needy and I suspect she got into public service to make the world a better place.

Maybe she had a spark of genuine decency once.

The ability of humans to deceive themselves is seemingly infinite.

when she gave her first speech as priminster .... who was that for?

Herself and others like her.
Self justification of greed, selfishness and ignorance is easy if you dress it in the trappings of altruism.

You obviously too young to remember how heavy an old 25" tv was then

I wish I was. I used to make kinetic artworks using the high voltage circuit from knackered CRT TVs I found in the street. So have dragged more home than I'd like to remember (I only managed to get the circuit to run for a few minutes before it burnt out). As a result of all this scavenging I used to watch telly on two big old TVs, one with no picture and one with no sound. 🙂

Managed to get a 29" CRT wedged in the passenger seat of my van the other day too - yep they're still as heavy as i (try not to) remember.

Can't remember the documentary that went into it but do remember a guy saying that when social and financial divisions get this large, and larger still, one of two things are likely to happen to a country.

Revolution or a police state.

This being Britain I am damned certain it's already heading the police state route.

We're very good at revolutions, which is why we don't tend to have them anymore.

From Wikipedia, although other sources are broadly in agreement over the casualties suffered in the civil war:

"These estimates indicate that England suffered a 3.7% loss of population, Scotland a loss of 6%, while Ireland suffered a loss of 41% of its population."

May's christian approach seems more like:
[b]The Parable of the Talents[/b]
29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
30 And throw that worthless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The Tories are the party of privilege, social mobility is something they always actively discourage as it goes against everything they believe in.

footflaps - Member

The Tories are the party of privilege, social mobility is something they always actively discourage as it goes against everything they believe in.

How does this social mobility work, is it like a ponzi scheme where we just keep shipping people in to fill the gaps left in society by those moving upwards, or are some of you willing to take a hit? ❓

As with all politicians, ignore what they say, and look at what they do.

May is very good at talking about social mobility, but the most cursory glance at her policies just show how actively hostile she is to the very notion of it.

Like all Tories she's about entrenching privilege, widening social divisions and inequality, and keeping the common peasantry in their place

How does this social mobility work, is it like a ponzi scheme where we just keep shipping people in to fill the gaps left in society by those moving upwards, or are some of you willing to take a hit?

It should be based solely on ability. Everybody should have the same opportunities no matter who your parents are or where you Iive in the UK. Obviously, it can never be perfectly equal, but the current system is designed to maintain privilege as much as possible i.e. oppress the poor and lavish opportunity on the rich regardless of ability.

The last budget was a prime example, the more your earned the more you benefited.

May's christian approach seems more like:
The Parable of the Talents

You clearly have no idea what that parable is about. Try reading around it a bit more.

Binners and footflaps are both right, the last thing the right of the Tory Party want is a level playing field, the talk of a UK that works for everyone is bollocks.

They need Brexit to support their position of authority and control. Most of all they need cheap, unregulated labour to make this thing continue to work.

You clearly have no idea what that parable is about. Try reading around it a bit more.

How could you not see all that its so obvious 😉
I am not piss taking that is the "traditional" interpretation of that

Explain please
Tempted to say your comment is the soundbite rather than their detailed explanation of why they have resigned

Junkyard - will hold my hand up and admit it was a lazy response. For me it really hit home when the PM failed to lend an ear and failed to offer comfort to distressed survivors/grieving relatives in the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower disaster. She simply did not want anything to do with them and yet one would assume that as a daughter of a clergyman she'd watched, many times, her father comfort parishioners in their hour of need.

Rusty Spanner - Member

The right wing social mobility myth:

Debase education and charge for it,

Have I got false memory syndrome? I thought tuition fees were brought in by a Labour govt?

Given them recommendations made in the very recent fifth social mobility report the loss of its board is unlikely to make much difference

tuition fees were brought in by a Labour govt?

Chewrs C-G I get your point and its odd. I think she does care but when face to face with actual suffering humans she seems to be robotic,unsympathetic and cold.

Junkyard

A Blair one so still a right wing one

I see. Around 3/4 of the electorate voted Tory or Labour in 1997. So by right wing you mean the vast majority of the population.

Yup, Blair, the little shit.

I'd like to retrain as a nurse, possibly a physio or OT, having been a rehab coach for a few years now.

However, as someone who hasn't been in debt for years or ever claimed a penny in benefit the thought of being £55,000 in the red absolutely terrifies me.

Social mobility?
Yeah, right.

Having poor people funding middle class kids to go to university hardly helped social mobility in the past

So by right wing you mean the vast majority of the population.

Chewrs C-G I get your point and its odd. I think she does care but when face to face with actual suffering humans she seems to be robotic,unsympathetic and cold.

Junkyard - it's the fear of the great unwashed I presume. After all, she doesn't seem to have any problem with talking to politicians whom she's never met before. Definitely cold and unsympathetic as you say.

How does this social mobility work, is it like a ponzi scheme where we just keep shipping people in to fill the gaps left in society by those moving upwards, or are some of you willing to take a hit?

Tory views encapsulated. Wheres Stewart Lee and the monies mine?

Having poor people funding middle class kids to go to university hardly helped social mobility in the past

Has this changed with loans and debt. The poor take the loans and pay the interest the rich get it paid up front.

[url= https://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-inquiry-risks-being-whitewash-without-diverse-panel-say-families-11151098 ]Grenfell is still illustrating perfectly the attitude of May and co to the poor[/url]

Just be quiet you bloody peasants while we go through this sorry ridiculous charade which will exonerate everyone responsible

They don’t want any of the local residents, victims families, or any of the frightful lower orders within 100 miles of proceedings.

That speaks volumes about Mays actual attitude, rather than the platitudes she’s fond of parroting

Social mobility, my arse!

The problem with [b]actually[/b] improving social mobility is that it's largely a zero-sum game and the losers would be the children of the professional classes, the relatively privileged and the influential. If any initiative looked in any real danger of improving social mobility it'd soon be nipped in the bud.

People are malleable.
They can be altruistic or selfish, depending on how they are governed.

Human nature is not entirely a fixed concept.

We've had 40 years of the legitimisation of greed, the promotion of the self above the good of society.

Time for a change.

However, as someone who hasn't been in debt for years or ever claimed a penny in benefit the thought of being £55,000 in the red absolutely terrifies me.

+1. I'd love to go back to education but the costs are completely off putting. The way I see it is that a skilled work force bringing in more tax revenues for the government will be of greater benefit for the country in the long run than having a lot of unfulfilled potential on low wages.

Johnners, sorry sir, but the whole "social mobility is zero sum" is rubbish. An educated population lifts the WHOLE countries success. I think you are assuming that little Jimmy from the council estate gets an education funded by rich Tamara's parents. Jimmy then gets the job that Tamara was "destined" for. But actually what happens is that both Jimmy and Tamara are well educated and succeed in a global economy and both pay more taxes and have more income to spend (perhaps even in each others companies). Social mobility is certainly not zero sum. As education levels rise we ALL become richer (on average and subject to the normal bell curve of wealth distribution).

We’ve been messing about with education for so long it’s no wonder we are where we are

Well.... only the education available to the plebs.

The paid-for education available to those that can afford it has remained resolutely un-messed-about-with for centuries, including its tax breaks/taxpayer subsidies

Good old social mobility eh?

We’ve been messing about with education for so long it’s no wonder we are where we are

If you mean the Tories have been coming up with more and more ways of making it less available to the poor / less able; then yep - they've tried lots of things.

All of which have been slammed as [url= https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/apr/26/mps-condemn-free-schools-policy-as-incoherent-and-wasteful ]bad value for money[/url] and [url= http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2017/11/exclusive-dfe-has-no-schedule-for-publishing-impact-assessments-for-free-schools-opened-in-last-two-years ]socially divisive[/url].

Biggest driver of social mobility is education, not just academic achievement either.

Tsar does have a point that Brexit will dominate Parliament and Govt time for the next 2-3 years.

@Binners

The paid-for education available to those that can afford it has remained resolutely un-messed-about-with for centuries, including its tax breaks/taxpayer subsidies

Paid for education is massive help to the state reducing pressure on state school places and providing employment and lots of tax revenue

Grenfell, refurb spending £90k per apartment on “the poor”

teamhurtmore - Member
We’ve been messing about with education for so long it’s no wonder we are where we are

I seem to remember you being an advocate of tuition fees and arguing against the societal value of state funded University education.

Rusty I imagine TMH is speaking about secondary education. I would agree we’ve been messing about with that too much for too long

Biggest driver of social mobility is education, not just academic achievement either.

Paid for education is massive help to the state reducing pressure on state school places and providing employment and lots of tax revenue

😆
😆

Shall we legislate that a proportion of privately educated students undertake vocational qualifications and are excluded from degree courses?

Or is it just poorer students, regardless of ability, that should be forced down that route?

paid for education is a massive help to the state

[img] [/img]

No FF, 1965 and Tony Crosland's educational vandalism from which we have never recovered.

Shall we legislate

No politicians have done enough harm to education - keep them out of it.

And yet you advocated the introduction of fees.

No I didn't. I merely commented on the previous system. I certainly would not advocate the current system. It's crazy.

teamhurtmore - Member
Having poor people funding middle class kids to go to university hardly helped social mobility in the past

And a quick search finds

teamhurtmore - Member
True - and some (@50% of the pop) will be relieved that they are not subsidising middle class childrens' education.

You were and still are against universally subsidised University education.
Which contradicts your statement that you wish to see less interference from politicians.

And just for clarification THM, I have no agenda against you, or Jambalaya for that matter.
I just wish you'd be a bit more willing to actually state what you genuinely believe.
It would go a long way toward stopping what you perceive as negativity toward the pair of you.

I've extended the hand of friendship to you both in the past in an effort to negate any mutual misunderstanding and to find some common ground.

We know that this form of communication is open to misinterpretation, a little effort from both sides and we can
hopefully put an end to this continuing unpleasantness.

The point with higher education is first, we essentially have a graduate tax so only those who earn well need to repay. Second some of the money is used to fund the living expenses of the poorest. The combination of the two means that there has actually been greater uptake among the poorest. It is rare in policy arguments that you have a valid counterfactual. However in the case of Scotland, we have a similar society which has the opposite policy which means less money for bursaries and no fees for all, yet uptake among the poorest seems lower.

There is no contradiction at all.

I have stated very clearly what I believe about poor people funding middle class kids tertiary education. I think that is absurd and unfair. Edit for cross post with Mefty, but I recognise the results he also notes and the irony with free ediucation in Scotland.

I have also stated that I would prefer to see less government interference in education. They do a very bad job.

You chose to create some contradiction that doesn't exist. I am not sure why.

FWIW, I am not conscious of you being unpleasant either. I would suggest efforts to be directed instead on what is said not what is not said.

Nursing degree applications in England down by 23% since the introduction of fees.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/feb/02/nursing-degree-applications-slump-after-nhs-bursaries-abolished ]Link. [/url]

I have stated very clearly what I believe about poor people funding middle class kids tertiary education. I think that is absurd and unfair.

So are you happy that the government has intervened to stop what you perceive as unfairness?

FWIW, I am not conscious of you being unpleasant either. I would suggest efforts to be directed instead on what is said not what is not said.

What is not said is often as important as what is.
You continually complain of bias and bullying when challenged to state what you actually believe or to justify your comments.
Your most recent contributions to YOUR Corbyn thread being just one example.

The real need is for greater parity of wages. Since the 70s wages have risen more for the richest 10% than for the rest. If everyone had an accepable wage there wouldn't be the pressure from the rich to protect their offspring from downward mobility. If the average van driver or shop worker could afford a decent home and lifestyle then mobilty, (that is, the movement of all people innto the jobs most appropriate to them and their abilities) could come back.

The thread has now focussed on education which, as others ^^^ have posted, is the single most effective way of moving towards social equality.
Essential to achieving social mobility? Definitely yes.
The only tool necessary to achieve social mobility? Definitely not

Not true Rusty. I simply chose who to respond to and who to engage with. But feel free to make stuff up and I can add you to the list, if you would prefer. Easier that what. Your choice.

I simply chose who to respond to and who to engage with.

It would appear that you refuse to engage with anyone who challenges you to provide evidence or justify your position.
You've just done it again when challenged about your statement regarding government interference in educational policy.

Once again, simple question:
Are you happy that the government has intervened to stop what you perceive as unfairness?

But feel free to make stuff up and I can add you to the list, if you would prefer.

Please provide evidence of anything I've made up.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/jeremy-corbyn/page/492 ]Link to your latest contribution to YOUR Corbyn thread. [/url]

A list?
Sorry, but that's a bit pathetic.

Easier that what. Your choice.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Clearly. Hence your apparent need to make things up instead.

What have I made up?
Accusing people of lying is unpleasant.
Please justify your statement.

And one final time:
Are you happy that the government has intervened to stop what you perceive as unfairness?

The latest report is [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/news/social-mobility-in-great-britain-fifth-state-of-the-nation-report ]here (gov.uk site).[/url]

I’ve read through it a few times this weekend after hearing of the resignations. It makes for pretty stark reading. There is little of which to be proud.

There are huge challenges facing a government of any hue over the next few years. Of course, little will be done as a national act of self-harm borne out of some of the frustrations illustrated (in said report) will consume too much parliamentary time.

I grew up working class. Managed to go to university and got a fairly well paid job working for the local authority. I considered myself to have become middle class. I recently started working in my first office job in a local university. It has become very clear to me that I will never be middle class.
Social mobility is bollocks. It's just a way to keep us buying shit in an effort to get up the ladder/get ahead/be happy. This country's class system is as entrenched as it ever was and they don't want us in their club.
The very fact that we talk about social mobility proves that we are happy to leave a significant section of society behind.
**** social mobility, when are we going to start talking about social equality?

fin25,

Genuine question bud.

Why has the current job made you feel this way? That you will never be middle class?

There is a confidence and sense of security that comes with family money.
Its very difficult to replicate it if you havent got that advantage. Either in terms of the practical benefits of being able to take risks and move from opportuniy to opportunity or the attitude in your personal relationships.

+1. I'd love to go back to education but the costs are completely off putting. The way I see it is that a skilled work force bringing in more tax revenues for the government will be of greater benefit for the country in the long run than having a lot of unfulfilled potential on low wages.

Trouble is as far as I can tell there is a drive to de-skill/division of labour (globally) and force as many as humanly possible via legislation/regulation into unregulated corporate hands. Minimum/whatever they can get away with employment/slave labour, you should be bloody grateful or starve. As always those set to benefit, even the slightly better off (council estate snobs/house n$$$$$$/concentration camp guards), who like cheap desperados to take advantage of/profit from, keep the status quo going, while lying through their back teeth. Bow down to Lord Dave, Steve, Bazza and Gary who own BTL portfolios and want to lord it up like landed gentry of the past, will throw anyone in the way under the bus and support any lying **** that keeps them in clover.

Nursing degree applications in England down by 23% since the introduction of fees.

I am not saying the policy is perfect, just that when looked at as a whole it has been more successful. The biggest failure is that it hasn't generated the level of price competition and innovation in course design that they were hoping for. Everyone just put their fees up to the full amount because there was insufficient incentive to do anything different. Careers like nursing (as would many others) would seem ripe for innovation. Afterall my wife became an RCN nurse where she worked as a trainee nurse and studied at the same time, why do you need to spend three years at university to become a nurse, has it changed so much? Her oldest friend became one (not RCN) without highers (they are both Scottish), there must be new solutions.

The way I see it is that a skilled work force bringing in more tax revenues for the government will be of greater benefit for the country in the long run than having a lot of unfulfilled potential on low wages.

This is not about the country, or a skilled workforce, its beyond what you see as the sensible economics in the quote above. Its about class. Always has been.

Who rules. That slogan "taking back control" in the referendum was hidden in plain sight.

I was given a presentation last week on the proposed apprenticeships relating to architecture where the levies on firms with a staff wage bill of £3m a year would become available to all. These will be degree and postgrad level qualifications leading to professional registration.
It will be interesting to see how these pan out, I'm sure that other professions/ industries are preparing similar training routes - which will significantly reduce the costs to individuals.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Tory views encapsulated.

I'm looking from a wider view.
When people talk about social mobility they are generally talking about moving up the ladder, which will inevitably result in others moving down.
I'd rather look at a bigger picture and see how we can improve society for the whole. Selfishness means that this will not currently happen.

ETA: that is to say that I find the whole concept of social mobility a bit silly.

Public school pupils receive more in tax subsidies than the per capita spend on state school pupils so the idea that public schools help the government in some way is ludicrous. In fact many of these subsidies accrue to rich foreign students, the British poor paying for the global rich (again).

Let's clos them all down then after all many only provide educational excellence that attractes people from around the world. Who needs that?

The social mobility report is depressing for (1) content and (2) lack of genuine solutions. It struggles to make any firm conclusions but is full of cliche. After five reports, we are left with a lack of "strategy" and solution. What has been the point. A list of problems with few if any solutions.

Mefty, indeed the lack of innovation and competition in tertiary education is sad. Where are the shorter, focused courses, where are links to industry and business, where is the competition to ensure better standards and VFM? Yes there are private sector innovator eg, BPP who are expanding into this areas but is far too little.

“Public school pupils receive more in tax subsidies than the per capita”

Not sure this stacks up. As I understand it private schools don’t have to charge VAT at 20%. The average cost of privately school for non boarding was reported by the BBC in 2015 to be £13186, so VAT of £2837 per pupil was on average not received by the treasury. That compares to £4306 per capita funding the same year.

This will of course be the first “real world” problem for Corbyn if he gains power. Already committed to dismantling private education the State will need to either magic up significant new funding for running costs for state education and a massive increase in capital allocations or more likely cut funding for all pupils to accommodate the tens of thousands of pupils who will otherwise have nowhere to go in the state system.

I just wish you'd be a bit more willing to actually state what you genuinely believe.
It would go a long way toward stopping what you perceive as negativity toward the pair of you.

Trolls gonna troll!!

Anyway social mobility wont be changed by messing about with Uni courses, many things are set in stone far far before people think about University applications.

many only provide educational excellence

Do they, what evidence of this have you seen? Remember reputation and excellence in education are not the same.

When people talk about social mobility they are generally talking about moving up the ladder, which will inevitably result in others moving down.

No it means everyone can get to a ladder and it does improve society as a whole

Just5, yep sorry, I failed to mention boarding schools, no business taxes, taxpayer funding boarding school places for the children of the military and diplomatic services. Fees at boarding schools in real terms the (subsidized) costs are well in excess of £30k pa. I'm not sure how many overseas students would be in private day schools.
Who's talking about closing these places down? Open them up I say, to all. Maybe the taxpayers might then get to enjoy the boating lake they funded at Eton college. Give these fantastic teachers a chance to show their true mettle with comprehensive kids, I'm sure they'd leap at the opportunity.

Military kids get up to £6k per term, subject to quite stringent qualifying criteria. The parents have to make up the rest. Numbers are falling and use of the few state boarding schools is encouraged. Boarding is the essential bit, not private.