Educate yourselves, sheeple!
No one said anything about "educate yourselves". It has nothing to do with educating yourself, just a suggestion to stop and think before parroting something someone else has said.
Like that completely daft comments and obvious contradictions could be avoided, although it obviously doesn't bother me as I am perfectly happy to point them out.
Such as the daft comment that all racists voted Leave in the EU referendum.
About a week ago I posted examples of some pretty unpleasant dehumanising and racist stuff that David Cameron said about asylum seekers when he was PM, far worse than anything said Johnson. Stuff like asylum seekers "breaking into" the UK - making the comparison with common criminals, and also referring to them as swarms - making the comparison with insects.
David Cameron definitely voted remain in the referendum, so that's one racist that didn't vote leave. Then there's all the other Tory MPs who voted remain in the referendum, the majority of Tory MPs in fact, none of them racist?
How does fit in with what appears to be the ridiculous consensus on here that the Tory Party is a far-right racist party and all Tory politicians are racists?
The facts are known, there is nothing to be educated about, just a suggestion to give it some thought before making daft over-simplistic comments concerning racism and defining everyone on the basis of how they voted in a referendum 6 years ago.
There seems to be a real push for Liz Truss, what are people seeing in her that i’ve missed
She’s shown that she’s just as willing as Boris to ride the tide of bitter xenophobic nutjobs to serve her ambition
I think Johnathan Freedoand has nailed the appeal to the Tory faithful. It’s the whole weird delusional cult of Brexit and the way it has turned everything on it’s head and sold a colonial fantasy to the idiots
It’s a really good piece Brexit is a mood, not a policy – and Liz Truss captures it in all its delusion
MMT to save the world, yeah unlimited spending and fake growth on steroids is surely our salvation. 😆
I’m afraid that us brainless thoughtless drones, slaves as we are to the military-industrial complex, having out thoughts spoon-fed to us by Rupert Murdoch, can only but dream of having the wisdom and insight of our forum revolutionaries whose intelligence puts them in a far superior league to us
And they wear their moral superiority so lightly, with such good grace and humour, without being remotely patronising, sanctimonious, hectoring or condescending
A classic example of angry centrist hyperbole! It's what defines centrists - they despise everyone equally. They make no distinction between left and right, all that counts is whether the person has a different opinion to theirs.
Binners rants about the Tories with the same intensity and lack of tolerance as he does about the left. How terribly centrist 😉
too much noise too early on about truss, ignore the fact she's a clown, the tide will shift in sunak favour.
How does fit in with what appears to be the ridiculous consensus on here that the Tory Party is a far-right racist party and all Tory politicians are racists
Racist is the wrong word, xenophobic is the right one.
The vast majority are racist too though.
And they are far right in many ways. Mostly in their disdain for democracy
Binners rants about the Tories with the same intensity and lack of tolerance as he does about the left. How terribly centrist 😉
I’m equal opportunity, as you’d expect. I regard both gangs of idiots with equal contempt
Actually, that’s not true. I regard the left as a freakish sideshow - useful idiots for the right - that is of little significance as it will never ever be in a position to do anything, for glaringly obvious reasons
The right, on the other hand, are genuinely dangerous, and now they have harnessed Brexit populism will destroy everything without a second thought. All with the full complicity of deluded lefty half-wits who have gift wrapped all this for them in a way they could never even have dreamed of
When Farage and the Brexiteers dreamed of their referendum for decades they could have surely never imagined that they would have the full support of the leader of the Labour Party, but he was a fully paid up member of the most inexplicable tribe on the face of the earth… the Lexiteer. The ultimate Turkey, not just voting but campaigning for Christmas
Anyway… back to the actual topic…
Frankie Boyle just said on the last leg about choosing between Truss or Sunak, "it would be like we’ve tunnelled out of R Kelly’s house and emerged in Prince Andrew’s basement"
I think Johnathan Freedoand has nailed the appeal to the Tory faithful. It’s the whole weird delusional cult of Brexit and the way it has turned everything on it’s head and sold a colonial fantasy to the idiots
He spent nearly all his column time degrading Corbyn at every opportunity.
He's getting exactly what he pushed for. Nutjob club him and Toynbee.
How does fit in with what appears to be the ridiculous consensus on here that the Tory Party is a far-right racist party and all Tory politicians are racists?
A lot can be said for their choice of party to join, their choice of party to back, their choice of party to vote for.
Other parties are available but they chose the Tory party along with its 'happiness' with a bit of racism in its approach.
MMT to save the world, yeah unlimited spending and fake growth on steroids is surely our salvation
You have zero appreciation of MMT here.
The point is currently the government finances are operated in a way that is destroying the world whereas it could be 'used' to make the world a much better place. Both scenarios are operated under the lens of MMT. The current way very badly.
Comments like yours are why we never get anywhere.
We currently have virtually no growth because the money that is issued is not enough and not put to long-term use.
And it's not unlimited spending - it's spending constrainted by real resources and inflationary pressure.
MMT just says the spending istelf can't run out of money.
You really have understood nothing about MMT like the majority of its critics.
You only have to wonder what would have happened during the pandemic of the state hadn't stepped up?
The market to the rescue ... I don't think so.
Binners rants about the Tories with the same intensity and lack of tolerance as he does about the left. How terribly centrist 😉
Centrists played their part in why we got here including all his column buddies at the Graun.
They are the true neoliberal useful idiots.
I see Rachel Reeves is now borring Truss policy and looking at tax cuts in 2024. And high wage high growth - Johnson offered this exact line up two years ago.
Lmfao. If they only had an original idea.
Truss just worries me, more than Boris ever did, and that’s without her ever really having the ability to do something seriously harmful to the country by herself
Quite
Sunak talking about national crisis makes him sound the "better" sensible choice, but Liz clearly playing to the short term Tory audience with tax cuts again.
Except Sunak was a key player in the government that got us into the crisis. And presumably would not serve under Truss if her economic approach is wrong....
Shame I'm seeing headlines about national crisis because Sunak is talking about it and not because the opposition is talking about it.
Except Sunak was a key player in the government that got us into the crisis
Yep. The "sensible' face of Brexit and does well to not talk about it much.
He does the caring Brit routine well.
Everything else is Goldman Sachs tribute act.
too much noise too early on about truss
I dont know.
She has been reasonably visible for years and has been inexplicably popular with the tory membership (as per conservative home and other surveys) for all that time.
If anything Sunak might end up struggling when put under the spotlight. His PR teams are good and must cost a fortune but he hasnt spent much time being actively challenged on anything outside the basics.
There seems to be a real push for Liz Truss, what are people seeing in her that i’ve missed...
I struggle with this one too. Until a few days ago I refused to believe she could even get close. My current assessment is that she'll be most pliable and bend to demands, hence internal votes. She'll be a disaster long term, but long term strategies in politics seem to be a thing of the past.
Truss just worries me, more than Boris ever did, and that’s without her ever really having the ability to do something seriously harmful to the country by herself
I think Johnson is given far too much credit. If we travelled into the future from 2012 to present day, every one of us would be appalled and shocked by the damage he's done to the country. In reality, we've become frogs in a boiling pot and it's now the new normal. He paved the way for the likes of Truss...
Based on a comparison between the two of them, sunak appears much more sensible and pragmatic; truss will say anything to get votes from the 200k members.
I think she will win by a distance.
God help us.
There seems to be a real push for Liz Truss, what are people seeing in her that i’ve missed…
The people who are pushing for her are Tories… mostly of the worst kind… they see things differently.
Bear with me, rone, I'm just trying to see if I understand
Just think about this one simple fact: the government created 450billion for pandemic. Out of thin air. Without taxation to pay for it. They then used Q/E to buy back the bonds. Job done.
I'm seeing that as having a similar effect to a shareholder rights issue; creating more of something by diluting the intrinsic value, and in this case reducing the value of sterling.
I think the Tory MPs, RM etc. see her as a compliant airhead. I think the idiot Tory membership have heard tax cuts without realising it's corporation tax cuts and many of them will be squeezed even further.
I think the idiot Tory membership have heard tax cuts without realising it’s corporation tax cuts and many of them will be squeezed even further.
TBH I'm not so sure they've missed the point. Demographically speaking most of the Tory membership probably benefit from a corporation tax cut.
It helps the value of any shares they hold, it helps their pension funds, it helps the businesses some of them are on the boards of. This isn't about the wider public...
Rishi's policies are starting to sound like more austerity which has for the last decade helped limit consumer spending perhaps helped drive bad debt and ultimately hurts certain businesses and by extension investment/pensions... Rishi started behind and I think he's picked the wrong sales pitch.
While it might seem like the dabate is around what's best for the national economy, both are pitching towards the financial interests of a very thin sliver of the population, don't forget that. Anything they say now needs to be considered through the lens of Tory party Members, who are disproportionately older and wealthier.
Plus they're probably only looking at the next couple of years anyway. Whether you believe in MMT or not, the candidate that they think can stimulate investments or at least limit the damage from a global downturn will take the win. Worrying about public services or the country's long term financial stability is for plebs...
She's come up with some more populist bullshit about a new Royal Yacht as well now.
It's all they've got. Covid, Brexit, cost-of-living...and the answer is to wave another Union Jack around a bit.
If we travelled into the future from 2012 to present day, every one of us would be appalled and shocked by the damage he’s done to the country.
2012 felt amazing. Olympics, a real national pride (rather than nationalism), multi-cultural. And now look at us. 😥
Based on a comparison between the two of them, sunak appears much more sensible and pragmatic; truss will say anything to get votes from the 200k members.
I think she will win by a distance.
God help us.
Absolutely this. She's going to walk it
The Tory membership are now floating free from reality in fantasy Brexitland Empire 2.0. They don't want anything as inconvenient as facts getting in the way of their la-la-land alternative universe
From the Guardian this morning, Liz unleashes another economically illiterate fantasy
Truss vows to scrap remaining EU laws by end of 2023 risking ‘bonfire of rights’
Hundreds of laws covering employment and environmental protections could disappear overnight if Liz Truss becomes prime minister after she promised to scrap all remaining EU regulations by the end of 2023.
She's making Boris look like a remainer, with her brain-dead hardline rhetoric
Unicorns! Magic Brexit unicorns everywhere!
Blimey, if the opposition cannot capitalise on both of Murdoch's stooches using the slogan "Return to Thatcherism", they need to find another job.
I’m seeing that as having a similar effect to a shareholder rights issue; creating more of something by diluting the intrinsic value, and in this case reducing the value of sterling.
Ah no because the issue is whether there is something to purchase. As long as there is something to purchase - another product or resource the you're good.
Rights issue you are diluting the existing pool of shares, by splitting them down. But offering capital back to the company (I'm not an expert on that process at all)
The economy can to a point keep supplying new products.
And the rights issue doesn't have taxation at the other end to reduce supply if money becomes inflationary.
Think of it like this - if the government wants to build a bridge then the money can be made available and that will suck up the cash.
Government spending is not just pumping money into the economy. It's spending that money with reference to the political need at the time.
In reality, we’ve become frogs in a boiling pot and it’s now the new normal.
I come back to the UK every 4 years or so, and it gets a step change worse each time.
Next visit will be interesting, as last one was prepandemic
Hundreds of laws covering employment and environmental protections could disappear overnight if Liz Truss becomes prime minister after she promised to scrap all remaining EU regulations by the end of 2023.
In fairness that's probably part of what the (definitely not racist) Brexiteers voted for, an end to these non-curved bananas (or too curvy?), no more limits on working hours, get rid of all the health and safety regs.
Did she use the phrase "unshackling British Businesses" yet? They like that sort of thing...
The only risk she runs is playing all of her dog whistles too early/too loud and running out of "bold" (but Strangely familiar) things to say, there's another 3 weeks left still isn't there? Her puppeteers need to come up with enough material to fill the whole competition or else Rishi might get a word in.
So, Truss wants to borrow to fund tax cuts, but Sunak things that's wrong and presumably wants to keep taxes where they are?
Any economists got a view on that?
I think the idiot Tory membership have heard tax cuts without realising it’s corporation tax cuts
Also, corporation tax is due on profits after re-investment, and is designed to encourage businesses to re-invest to avoid tax. How does cutting it help growth?
According to my FIL it's not right that Sunak is going to be PM.... you know because of "Rotherham" ! 😕
klunk - you can tell your FiL, with a high degree of confidence, that sunak won't win.
What a prejudiced and poisonous view;
what does your other half think of their father's view?
well she doesn't share them, she calls him "nasty and bitter"
There seems to be a real push for Liz Truss, what are people seeing in her that i’ve missed,
She is a pliant puppet for the erg/ Britannia unchained lot. She also tickles the fancy of the membership.
Its all a part of the slow motion coup in progress. The Tory party are now run by a small cabal of extreme right wingers from behind the scenes.
The end game is a perpetual far right government with total deregulation
Unfortunately TJ is bang on.
The irony is that for all they claim to revere her, if a young Fatcha rocked up in this present Tory party she’d get absolutely nowhere as she would be considered a virtual socialist economically and a wishy washy liberal politically and culturally
And a peasant, obviously
I also think that in return she would be absolutely horrified at the Johnson government with its sleazy populism and appalled at what economic illiteracy now been rewritten as Thatcherism
if a young Fatcha rocked up in this present Tory party she’d get absolutely nowhere as she would be considered a virtual socialist economically and a wishy washy liberal politically and culturally
Strewth, there's some nonsense spouted on here.
I think Binners is spot on, in the constant they are all as bad as each other mentality people forget they are not. Thatcher was principled and had a clear ideology, and despite popular depictions, thought she was doing the right things to support the majority of working people.
The Tory party has gone backwards many years since, reverting to it's origins as the party of the elite, looking after the interests of a tiny minority.
Wasn't the tory party more of a One Nation Conservatism prior to Thatcher - the likes of Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine were considered 'wets'? Thatch hated the working class/blue collard workers. Lots of self-employed builders i worked with at the time loved her.
Don’t know about the rest of it but I’m still amused that Ernie and Chewy aligned on the previous page.
Clichés in perfect alignment...
A total eclipse of the reasonable.
🙂
A total eclipse of the reasonable.
LOL!
What's the "reasonable" you are referring to? I only see unicorn riders from all sides.
Personally, I will take the tax cut because there really is nothing much any of the new PM can do with the current sanctions on Russia. Don't care about inflation (due to tax cut) etc because there is nothing much any govt in the world can do at the moment.
I would even give my vote to Keir Starmer (Labour) for him to mess up the economy further if he wishes to! LOL! I want to ride the unicorn! LOL!
@nickc The key part of that TED talk 2 pages ago is at 3:10 Are these things worth doing, not where is the money coming from?
If the judgement is that it's worth doing for the benefit of the citizens and the decision is not made we need to start pointing out that the decision-maker is not working in our best interests. To quote Spock "for the many not the few" which is where Corbyn was right, his methodology was suspect but it was the right approach.
Personally, I will take the tax cut
it won’t be a tax cut for the little people…
I would even give my vote to Keir Starmer (Labour) for him to mess up the economy further if he wishes to! LOL! I want to ride the unicorn! LOL!
TBH I think it’ll be the unicorn doing the riding and that horns going to be unlubed for the little people.
Are these things worth doing, not where is the money coming from?
If the judgement is that it’s worth doing for the benefit of the citizens and the decision is not made we need to start pointing out that the decision-maker is not working in our best interests.
That’s the thing I found weird with Boris J, the 40 new hospitals would have been really good(well apart from having no staff) and the hs2 for the north but they had no real desire to actually deliver which made no sense.
That’s the thing I found weird with Boris J, the 40 new hospitals would have been really good
Well yes aside from the minor detail it didnt actually mean that. It just meant, mostly, refurbs or an extra wing.
Even if we had an extra 40 what would the actual value be?
One issue we face is what are those hospitals doing? More A&E could add a lot but if those extra hospitals are trying advanced heart surgery sadly it makes more sense for one or two hospitals to be really, really good at it and need people to travel than ten be okay at it (this would depend on how quickly people go downhill and hence be a medical rather than political evaluation).
it won’t be a tax cut for the little people…
Especially the really little people who don't really pay much tax anyway so even if they paid zero tax it would not help them massively/at all.
A better thing for the very little people would be removing VAT on essentials (energy, basic foods etc,.) offset by increasing VAT on high priced non essentials while keeping it at current rate for everything else.
Unfortunately the tory way would be to do exactly the opposite of that.
More red meat to satisfy the stone-hearted appetites of the rich, elderly racists that constitute 'the membership'
Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss promise big expansion of Rwanda asylum scheme
It's quite the idealogical journey that Lizzie has been on, isn't it? From the Lib Dems, via the remain campaign to promising to deport lots of desperate children to Africa.
It staggers me that anyone would trust someone who'd managed to walk that particular road in such an unconcerned manner, purely because it provided the vehicle presently best suited to their own advancement.
A moral vacuum, exactly the same as the present occupier of number 10
It’s quite the idealogical journey that Lizzie has been on, isn’t it? From the Lib Dems, via the remain campaign to promising to deport lots of desperate children to Africa.
That woman is dangerous - she cannot possibly be thinking of this stuff herself so who, behind the scenes, is pulling the strings? Although, like most Tories, she's just a shameless opportunist, willing to change principles at the drop of a hat if it gets her elected.
It'd be a load cheaper to just move the asylum seekers / refugees / immigrant scum* around the UK a bit and bung them the £100m. Could solve levelling up at the same time. Here you go, have a potential cheap labour force moving in along with a load of money to improve services.
*delete according to your principles
Just another 5 weeks to go till the council of elders pass their judgement.
Just thinking that no one under the age of 24 had a say in this Brexit thing that isn't done yet.
This annointment of a leader, like Brexit itself feels like the execution of a will. I can't think of better example of a nations future being decided by those who are either dead, or about to die.
That woman is dangerous – she cannot possibly be thinking of this stuff herself so who, behind the scenes, is pulling the strings?
Erg / Britannia unchained goons
A good summary of her by Andrew Rawnsley in the Observer today
Liz Truss reminds me of a Tory leader but it’s not Margaret Thatcher
Basically, she’s just a slightly shitter female Johnson. Another self-serving opportunist hitching herself to populist nonsense to get the top job. That’s literally all she cares about. Totally devoid of substance. A third race Thatcher tribute act
Erg / Britannia unchained goons
An unnamed Tory MP refers to her this
“She is the adoptive child of the ERG [European Research Group] and all the other batshit groups on the right of the party,”
Whatever outrageous promises these two are making to the unrepresentative fossils whose votes they are dependent on are not binding on their behaviour once in Downing Street...
...or are they?
she cannot possibly be thinking of this stuff herself so who, behind the scenes, is pulling the strings?
Why wouldnt she be capable of doing so? It isnt exactly difficult to look up what would get the tory members excited and hence pitch to them.
A good summary of her by Andrew Rawnsley in the Observer today
I enjoyed that, thanks for posting
The candidates seem to be working their way through the checklist, let's see who completes it first.
Watching BBC News and seeing what the right wing press is saying, they really, really want Truss in.
Theyre peddling the whole Thatcher 2.0 bollocks and absolutely savaging Rishi
If Murdoch and co want you in…..
As soon as truss is annointed her multiple promises/commitments will be dropped as they were nothing than the means to get her elected.
That's all that matters.
She and sunak are both vomit inducing.
He won't win because he isn't channeling thatcher - and he's the wrong colour.
It's the party, (elected MP's) vs the membership. As much as we are about to have Liz Truss foisted upon us, she is also being foisted upon them.
I see a very un-civil war breaking out in the Tory party, I can't see her managing her own party with any authority at all. I think for the most part they see Sunak as the only hope of winning the next General election.
Watching something yesterday where the tory members apparently weighed up who was most likely to win an election for them than whether they agreed most with the candidate. David Davis was seen as a better tory (i.e. more right wing) but they chose Cameron as he was seen as better chance of winning an election.
^^^
But that was before daft nationalist-populist posturing was shown to be a winning ticket amongst the electorate at large.
I do like that NF leaflet, what’s the only missing policies so far phased repatriation and capital punishment.
Really weird how they talk against dictatorship but all their policy’s are geared towards that.
So, there's another televised debate tonight
Another one I won't be watching a I know it'll just wind me up and at the end of the day none of us have a dog in this fight
I'm finding it incredibly annoying that this is receiving all this media coverage (well it is who gets to be PM after all), yet with a prime time TV debate tonight, the only viewers that matter are those 160,000 Tory party members. The rest of us are completely irrelevant.
Its just emphasising, as if it needed to, how farcical and completely undemocratic this whole charade is
what’s the only missing policies so far phased repatriation and capital punishment.
I'm guessing phased repatriation is the only one off the menu, although the 'hostile environment' and Windrush was as close as it gets to the same thing for the latest generation of migrants.
Priti Patel recently refused to roll back her previous comments supporting the death penalty, and I'm guessing it's possible she'll be back as HS whoever wins.
Priti Patel recently refused to roll back her previous comments supporting the death penalty, and I’m guessing it’s possible she’ll be back as HS whoever wins.
I rather assumed that was the point of her not running.
Watching something yesterday where the tory members apparently weighed up who was most likely to win an election for them than whether they agreed most with the candidate. David Davis was seen as a better tory (i.e. more right wing) but they chose Cameron as he was seen as better chance of winning an election.
in that respect Sunak makes far more sense, but I think it illustrates the UKIPisation of the Tory party that Truss is now the favourite
That said I could see her doing less well the more exposure she gets, especially if those scandals get leaked
Priti Patel recently refused to roll back her previous comments supporting the death penalty, and I’m guessing it’s possible she’ll be back as HS whoever wins.
The way the rhetoric is being steadily ratcheted up to appeal to the hang'em'and'flog'em brigade, I'd say that within a week we'll have both candidates promising to re-introduce the death penalty. Probably for any crime more serious than shoplifting
was anyone else treated to the conservative party member on the radio early this morning, pushing to have Boris in the poll with Sunak and Truss because.....
i cant explain the levels of delusion in this country, cant simply by the media, even chem trails and lsd in the drinking water..... (gives up, again)
Theres a good person to watch on Youtube called 'A Different Bias' who was talking about Truss today (or maybe yesterday). She seems to have taken her entire policy on one black sheep economist who nobody else agrees with, and then only cherry picked the nice bits out of his work and forgotten to mention the 'oh, and interest rates will need to be 8%+ for it to work' bit he also mentioned. I can't believe people are already talking about giving her a year to watch her plans collapse then the next Tory civil war (and possibly Sunak waiting in the wings to take over). This is genuienely despressing if so.
She's BJ mark 2, literally saying whatever will get her progressed for the next week. and repeat even more crazy stuff the following week.
Liz Truss is on the verge of promising everyone in the country a pony if she’s elected PM…
Definition of car crash tv....
So far Liz truss just seems incompetent, Rishi seems to be going for the if I shout louder then her I'll win.......
Glad I'm not a conservative party member having to choose between these two. Absolute dregs of the party.
#BlueOnBlue
This is terrible.
Sunak coming across quite aggressive - trying to pressure her into making a mistake?
Might backfire
Absolute dregs of the party.
I fear you are underestimating the Tory party
Dear god, this is beyond awful.
They’re really convincing in pretending they give a flying **** about places like Stoke. I bet neither of them knew where it was until their ministerial cars dropped them there.
Rishi’s ‘Man of the People’ act is looking particularly laughable, but they’re both re-writing their own back-stories (as well as the last 12 years of Tory government) by the minute.
#BlueOnBlue
This is terrible.
Why the fig are we talking about clothes? Dear god this is so bad…
The moving graphics behind them are also really distracting and a bit trippy!
Brexit mentioned, plastered over by both and Faisal did not bring up the cost to the economy.
Just wtf is the point of having this shitshow?
binners, you said you weren't going to watch but...
I've avoided this shitshow as it's
two thoroughly unpalatable candidates, lying through their teeth, making a sales pitch to an electorate of no more than 200k.
Is this the best the tories have to offer?
Let me guess - johnson is/was exceptional, got brexit done, stood up to putin, led the covid response magnificently.
Nothing other than a complete bag of bollocks.
Yuck.
All we need is them to be wearing robes, and the audience chanting 'The Greater Good!'.
https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/status/1551659184848003078
I’m not watching it, the comments here and the picture above are enough to paint the picture.
johnson is/was exceptional, got brexit done, stood up to putin, led the covid response magnificently.
Lucky for everyone then he might not be going after all, Huzzah!! 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧