For scotland to join the EU as an independent member they have to agree to accept the Euro. Pretty radical move if you ask me.
So that'll be true for England as well then?
For scotland to join the EU as an independent member they have to agree to accept the Euro. Pretty radical move if you ask me.
You sure about that?
It is a compulsory requirement for all new applicants.
But Scotland is already a member - didn't you know that?
The pathological nightmare of a socialist states of Europe will not be derailed.
You do realise there's a mix of right and left wing governments in Europe, right? Germans and Spanish - right. France, left. Etc.
Still, you're probably right about the Euro.
So that'll be true for England as well then?
No. The Bank of England will continue to produce sterling. The EU needs the UK or rUK as it's a nett contributor.
If they want independence from the UK, all the best to 'em
What if England wants independence? would you support that and all that it means for the Welsh?
Scots independence could also be a huge opportunity for the remainder of the UK to renegotiate with Euroland. I think independence will be in the rUKs interest (financially), and if the Scots think it's in theirs too then maybe we could all be winners.
Yes, I'm allowed to vote. I won't however, as I believe it is there choice to make.
You live here mate. That gives you more right to a vote than flag waving tax dodging morons like Connery.
I do feel that the economics arguments for and against should not be key in the debate. It's a question of self determination!
From a very rough straw poll of friends and work colleagues a wee while ago it was actually economics that was most important. And about 90% were in favour of staying in the Union.
Scotland won't vote to leave. When it comes to money we're not daft. Trust me, it won't happen.
On a more pressing note... If they do get independence, what are we going to do about flags? I can see the government commissioning a replacement for the Union Jack from a 'Perfect Curve' style 'brand consultancy' like the one that came up with Olympic logo
*shudders*
Will this be one of those euro votes where they keep having referendums till they get the answer they want?
Up North of the Wall this week, so I will test some "local opinion". But the idea of a vote for all on the issue is a non-starter. Why? Well it should be obvious.
Scots with any common sense will vote "no" despite all the time, Commonwealth Games Euphoria, Anniversary of B'burn etc (how many things can Salmon line up in one go!?!).
kennyp - Member
Scotland won't vote to leave. When it comes to money we're not daft. Trust me, it won't happen.
English and Welsh with any common sense would vote "yes". 😉
Imagine the chaos then. So, it will not happen. Enough chaos as it is...
Will this be one of those euro votes where they keep having referendums till they get the answer they want?
We already had a referendum. We voted for independence. But that didn't suit Westminster, so they retrospectively changed the rules to assume that everyone who didn't vote voted no.
Scotland as an independent nation is NOT in the EU.. and do you really think that an independent scotland will still be able to use sterling?
England as an independent nation wouldn't be in the EU either, either both in, or neither in. And who's going to stop us using Sterling? Anyone can use any currency they like...
We already had a referendum. We voted for independence
What??? When???
If you are talking about 1979 then that was nothing to do with independence.
And who's going to stop us using Sterling? Anyone can use any currency they like...
Yes, we'd still be able to use Sterling. Except as an "independent" country we'd have zero say in economic policy.
England as an independent nation wouldn't be in the EU either, either both in, or neither in.
Not true. We would be seceding from the rest of the UK. England would not be independent. It would still be joined politically with Wales and N Ireland.
And anyway, wanting so-called independence then immediately running off and asking to be ruled by Brussels isn't exactly the action of a proper independent state, is it?
Actually Ben, I think you may find that currency arrangements are not that simple. But lets accept that there are just for the sake of debate. So Alex "which way us the wind blowing now" Salmon has given up on the Euro (sensible) but replaced it with the pound (silly). I thought this was all about independence and the desire/ability to go it alone? So the latest SNP wheeze is to delegate monetary policy to another nation south of the border. Blimey after all this time, you would have thought that they would have worked basics like this out.
From a very rough straw poll of friends and work colleagues a wee while ago it was actually economics that was most important. And about 90% were in favour of staying in the Union.Scotland won't vote to leave. When it comes to money we're not daft. Trust me, it won't happen.
From another similar straw poll of work and friends, pretty much the same result.
Most just seem pretty bored by the whole thing.
England as an independent nation wouldn't be in the EU either
A perfect starting point for renegotiation. As I said; the EU needs our contributions. And we need to contribute less 😀
What if England wants independence? would you support that and all that it means for the Welsh?
I know what you are getting at there, and yes I agree the English wanting out would be a bit of a nightmare. But apart from a few people bringing it up when there's a Scottish Independence debate going on I'm not aware of a significant English independence movement for it to be a question that needs answering.
Are there any political parties representing English independence? I suspect there must be a movement.
And in answer to your question, yes I would support it. Whether that viewpoint is wise is another matter entirely.
I'm not trying to pull a fast one honest!I know what you are getting at there,
me neither but it could change.I'm not aware of a significant English independence movement for it to be a question that needs answering.
well put. Anyone supporting scots independence would be a hypocrite not to do the same if England (or indeed Wales) made a break for it and they didnt agree. Obviously it would **** the welsh hard but seemingly that's not something that the scots are concerned about, as they're not concerned about English fortunes.And in answer to your question, yes I would support it. Whether that viewpoint is wise is another matter entirely.
that's not something that the scots are concerned about, as they're not concerned about English fortunes.
Don't listen to the tiny minority of anti-English idiots up here. Most Scots I know actually want England (and Wales and Ireland (all of it)) to do well. Yes we love playing you at rugby etc, but deep down there's no hatred or even dislike. I've got friends and family all over the UK. I hope all parts are prospering. I also firmly believe we're better off sticking together.
Kennyp, agree with every word of that.
And reflects my experiences perfectly
Northwind hereby challenges everyone who believes that Scotland is subsidised by the rest of the UK to prove it.
As for the economic argument- it's absolutely true that Scotland's economy would run in deficit. But what you don't hear so much about is that it is predicted to be a smaller deficit than England.
zokes - MemberInteresting analogy. So what happens if the rest of the UK wants Scotland to leave, but Scotland got cold feet?
England is just as welcome to secede from the UK as Scotland.
mogrim - MemberCan Scotland automatically claim membership, or is a vote needed from the current members?
Nobody actually seems to know. Lots of comments from within the UK but has anyone seen any response on this from the EU? The clesest we seem to have is the way it was handled with the breakup of the former soviet union but that's not really representative.
[quote=Northwind ]
Nobody actually seems to know. Lots of comments from within the UK but has anyone seen any response on this from the EU? The clesest we seem to have is the way it was handled with the breakup of the former soviet union but that's not really representative.
The latest from the EU is that it would be for Scotland and the rUK to decide upon the arrangement. The truth is that no one is really sure. Anyone coming out with a "definite" answer is either lying or deluded.
But what you don't hear so much about is that it is predicted to be a smaller deficit than England
I doubt that very much certainly in 50 years (tops) when the oil runs out, but again it really doesn't matter. There's a looong way to go before that happens, a referendum and negotiations as to how much of the UKs deficit Scotland will take on.
Let them go ...
What's the point of feeding more people?
But if you have some money you can always buy up all the land there ... then put them to work ... 😆
+1 kennyp. There are idiots on both sides, but I have great banter with friends and family in the South East.
I am a bit concerned with 16 and 17 year olds voting in the referendum though.
[quote=athgray ]
I am a bit concerned with 16 and 17 year olds voting in the referendum though.
I'm a bit concerned that 16 and 17 year olds don't have the right to vote normally. If you can be taxed on your income you have a right to a say on how much and what happens to it.
No taxation without representation, seem to have heard that one before 😉
Actually that one is interesting though, because lots of people are saying "Do they really understand the issues", etc. As if you can't say the same about all voters of all ages.
wrecker - MemberI doubt that very much certainly in 50 years (tops) when the oil runs out
To be frank, anyone who thinks they can predict economic conditions in 50 years is obviously deranged. Turns out, we can't even predict them in 5 (ah let's be honest, it turns out we don't really know what's going on today)
The only economic approach that will work if Scotland becomes independent is a low-tax, small Govt one - and not to just replicate the State 'infrastructure' it currently has as a part of the UK.
And this isn't a right-wing small state, but one that protects the citizen while reducing/dismantling high-cost Depts; such as reducing the MOD to focus on defence rather than attack/occupation; stopping overseas aid; downgrading the NHS to one that is locally based and concentrates on care, not grandiose projects etc.
Oh, and as someone who lives in Scotland I can vote - although I'm not sure how they'll work out the tax situation and decide who is 'Scottish' vs who is a 'Visitor'?
[quote=b r ]
Oh, and as someone who lives in Scotland I can vote - although I'm not sure how they'll work out the tax situation and decide who is 'Scottish' vs who is a 'Visitor'?
It's not that complicated. It's just based on the Electoral Role - as it is for the Scottish Government elections. In this case, they'll need to do an update to include the folk who'll be 16/17 by October 2014.
[i]It's not that complicated. It's just based on the Electoral Role[/i]
I said 'tax'.
Basically anyone living here can vote, which kinda excludes overseas 'Scots'...
Druidh.
If the law reckons 16 year olds are not mature enough to spend their taxes on alcohol, cigarettes, tattoos, knives, gambling, certain films and computer games or driving a car, then perhaps they should not be voting in this issue?
Northwind - Member
Northwind hereby challenges everyone who believes that Scotland is subsidised by the rest of the UK to prove it.
www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06292.pdf -
A starting point NW!
As for the economic argument- it's absolutely true that Scotland's economy would run in deficit. But what you don't hear so much about is that it is predicted to be a smaller deficit than England.
Not quite true - but the deficit would be smaller than [b]some[/b] parts of England.
Probably shouldn't be able to join the army or get married, for that matter.
b r - Member
The only economic approach that will work if Scotland becomes independent is a low-tax, [b]small Govt one[/b] - and not to just replicate the State 'infrastructure' it currently has as a part of the UK.
The government employs 24% of the Scottish population, so that would represent quite a change to the status quo.
Will mr hammond have a new referendum on whether an independent Scotland will enter the EU if he wins this one ?
You think the Spanish are going to sit by and watch a region of a country declare independence on the basis of a referendum, then accede to them gaining EU membership?
I honestly don't normally mind what a 16 year old can and cannot legally do. I would exclude them simply because on the whole I reckon they will give Salmond the answer he wants to hear.
To be frank, anyone who thinks they can predict economic conditions in 50 years is obviously deranged. Turns out, we can't even predict them in 5 (ah let's be honest, it turns out we don't really know what's going on today)
So why pay heed to deranged people who pretend to know who will have the bigger deficit then?
[quote=Zulu-Eleven ]You think the Spanish are going to sit by and watch a region of a country declare independence on the basis of a referendum, then accede to them gaining EU membership?
They've already said that they would.
[quote=b r ]It's not that complicated. It's just based on the Electoral Role
I said 'tax'.
Oops. IIRC, everyone living in Scotland will be offered the option of a new Scottish Passport or to remain a citizen of the rUK. It's also very possible that some form of dual-nationality will apply (like NI/RoI).
THM- you're right, I slipped there, should have said Britain rather than England.
It's a very good link that, and does restate some interesting things- among them, that Scotland adds more value to the UK economy per capita than most of the UK (and the exceptions, London and the South East, are of course massively influenced by the centralisation of government)
Their analysis of the impact of north sea oil revenues is pretty fairminded and when taking the natural position (ie, Scotland's oil is primarily Scotland's) makes the case pretty well- lower defecit than the UK.
Wrecker- are you intentionally misunderstanding? The relative deficit argument is made based on today's figures, not those of 50 years from now.
Wrecker- are you intentionally misunderstanding? The relative defecit argument is made based on today's figures, not those of 50 years from now.
So completely irrelevant rather than deranged.
Wrecker- are you intentionally misunderstanding?
Maybe you should get some manners?
And you say this because...
<ooh, an edit. Manners? It's a simple question. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I think your "misunderstanding" was tactical, but it's possible it was simply daft.
Maybe the USA could help Alex out they seem to like other countries with oil!!
