Mainly joking with you but there is a part of me going no representation without taxation š
Hate the EU one and yet you love the Uk one
Not at all fella. I agree whole-heartedly with the principle of a united Europe. However, the present shambles is so fundamentally undemocratic that the word 'elected dictatorship' gives it a status it doesn't deserve. It constantly amazes me that people on the left just accept this most laughably undemocratic institution, mainly it seems, as its better than to be seen agreeing with Tory backbenchers or Nigel Farage. its a ridiculous stance to take
The other issue is Scotland [as is Wales] is far more left wing than England and wants to do what it values. If england stopped voting Tory this issue might go away
Complete cobblers I'm afraid. Do you actually know what Alex Salmonds policies are? He's even more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench
He, like Boris Johnson, has just managed to pull off the trick of not having his policies scrutinised, so people assume stuff which normally bears no resemblance to the reality. Which suits him just fine
If he ever got any 'real' power - ie: to change taxation etc - his popularity would be even shorter lived than Cleggmania
[quote=binners ]Complete cobblers I'm afraid. Do you actually know what Alex Salmonds policies are? He's even more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench
š You really are talking complete drivel.
Apart from that there election victory of course šHe, like Boris Johnson, has just managed to pull off the trick of not having his policies scrutinised,
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I, or anyone else in England thinks.
You'll either vote for your socialist utopia, or you won't. I suspect the latter, by some considerable margin. Alex, like Boris, may convince the majority he can run the town hall better than the woeful opposition. Convincing the majority that he could run an independent nation state? Well... good luck with that...
elected dictatorship' gives it a status it doesn't deserve
What like the way Scotland gets a Tory giovt yet only has one MP or worse than that?
.
I dont think you can call the SNP a Tory type party tbh whatever you think of wee eck
The SNP's policy base is mostly in the mainstream European social-democratic mould. For example, among its policies are a commitment to unilateral nuclear disarmament, progressive personal taxation, the eradication of poverty, free state education including support grants for higher education students and a pay increase for nurses
How very Boris and Tory that is
Salmond started his political life as a committed left-winger inside the SNP and was a leading member of the socialist republican organisation within it, the 79 Group. He was, along with other group leaders, suspended from membership of the SNP when the 79 Group was banned within the larger party. In 1981, he married Moira French McGlashan,[13] then a senior civil servant with the Scottish Office.Following the SNP's National Council narrowly voting to uphold the expulsion, Salmond and the others were allowed back into the party a month later, and in 1985 he was elected as the SNP's Vice Convener for Publicity.
In 1987 he stood for Parliament in Banff and Buchan and defeated the incumbent Conservative MP, Albert McQuarrie. Later that year Salmond became Senior Vice Convener (Deputy Leader) of the SNP. He was at this time still viewed as being firmly on the left of the party and had become a key ally of Jim Sillars, who joined him in the British House of Commons when he won a by-election for the seat of Glasgow Govan in 1988. Salmond served as a member of the House of Commons Energy Select Committee from 1987 to 1992.
As is that
He, like Boris Johnson, has just managed to pull off the trick of not having his policies scrutinised, so people assume stuff which normally bears no resemblance to the reality. Which suits him just fine
Quite - and yet somehow the complete diddies in the opposition parties have never actually clocked this. You should try listening to FM's questions (Radio Scotland, probably on iplayer) to hear how unbelievably useless they are. I'm beginning to think that the English parties actually support independence as there doesn't seem to be one credible voice arguing against it.
And as for Fat Eck being a shrewd political operator, given the quality of the opposition, Donald Trump's hairpiece would look good compared to the Labour, Tory and ToryLite mobs we have here.
[quote=binners ]At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I, or anyone else in England thinks.
You'll either vote for your socialist utopia
Which is it - a "Socialist Utopia" or "more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench". You can't even make your mind up about that. Thank goodness you're not being asked to vote on something important.
JY: Have a read of Alex's [url= http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2011/06/global-economy-world-scotland ]missing speech[/url] - with his glowing praise of American Banks, RBS, HBOS, Low corporation tax and deragulated markets, and let me know where the 'socialism' comes in. I must have missed it. He's about as Socialist as Tony Blair
Which is it - a "Socialist Utopia" or "more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench"
The "Socialist Utopia" is the myth he's successfully peddled, pretty much unchallenged. The "more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench" is what you'll [i]actually [/i]end up with. New Labour all over again, but even more capitalism-friendly
Erm... You do realise that this isnt a vote on AS? If a "yes" vote is gained it doesn't mean AS will be in power forever. The way some people are talking about things you would think the referendum was asking if we'd like a lifetime of SNP governments, rather than if we'd like to be independent.
. I'm beginning to think that the English parties actually support independence as there doesn't seem to be one credible voice arguing against it.
Perhaps they do. Put up a bit of a "show" fight so that the scots feel wanted in case they vote against it, but at the same time secretly hope that they go big for independence.
There again, that would take a level of actual cognitive thought so I very much doubt it's true.
I say let them vote and let them win independence (although there doesn't seem to be enough support for it). We (the UK without the scots) then withdraw our services / infrastrcuture, etc back south of the border. This would include all of Her Majesties Armed Forces.
After a brief period of independence, we then simply use our armed forces to invade Scotland and take it all back on our terms. I do believe we have a bit of previous around this and this time a few hairy arsed men in skirts waving sticks isn't going to help the Scots.
We can then demolish that silly parliament building and dictate our terms.
What could possibly go wrong?
The other issue is Scotland [as is Wales] is far more left wing than England and wants to do what it values. If england stopped voting Tory this issue might go away
Most countries have right and left wing parties - once the poisonous influence of the independence question has gone, what makes you think Scotland would be any different? Give it 20 years and the SNP and Labour will have fused, and will be alternating in government with the bastard offspring of the Tory/Liberals.
JY: Have a read of Alex's missing speech - with his glowing praise of American Banks, RBS, HBOS, Low corporation tax and deragulated markets, and let me know where the 'socialism' comes in. I must have missed it. He's about as Socialist as Tony Blair
Ahem - Trumpton. where the Holyrood based SNP over-ruled the locally elected councilors refusal to grant planning permission for a golf course on a SSSI and have people removed from their homes so the wealthy could have yet another golf course to play on.
From an English perspective for a moment if I may, my understanding of a successful "yes" vote means that it would be an absolute unmitigated disaster for England in isolation. The only reason that Westminster isn't far over to the right at each election is due to the moderating effect of the Scottish constituencies. It makes North Korea sound an attractive option to move to to me.
It makes North Korea sound an attractive option to move to to me.
It might be easier to move to Scotland...
once the poisonous influence of the independence question has gone, what makes you think Scotland would be any different? Give it 20 years and the SNP and Labour will have fused, and will be alternating in government with the bastard offspring of the Tory/Liberals.
When did Scotland last vote in a majority that was not Labour?
I cannot ever see them voting for the Tories tbh]
as for SNP /Labour merging whi knows but the SNP may loose much appeal onc ethey dont have independence as a rallying cry
If the Scots get independence and leave those of us outside the Home Counties landed with a permanent Tory Hegemony, then they best get used to what Gretna Green's going to look like...
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Only rainier. With more pizza boxes
Quite proposterous for a region seeking independence, but the only way Scotland can survive outside the UK is in the EU.. with all that that entails..
When did Scotland last vote in a majority that was not Labour?
I cannot ever see them voting for the Tories tbh]
as for SNP /Labour merging whi knows but the SNP may loose much appeal onc ethey dont have independence as a rallying cry
Not immediately, but given time it'll happen. The local right-wing will no longer be associated with Westminster, or indeed tied to its policies, while as you say the SNP will lose a lot of its appeal as a left-wing party separate from a (non-nationalistic) left-wing labour party.
Out of interest, the day independence comes into effect: who is Scottish and who is English/British?
wrecker - Member. I'm beginning to think that the English parties actually support independence as there doesn't seem to be one credible voice arguing against it.
I really hope so...
In all seriousness, this could not have come at a worse time for the Unionists. Dave seems to be trying to big up all the good times we have had together,which is a [b]great[/b] policy "And remember when Auntie Margaret tested out the poll tax on you guys first? God,great times eh?" š
Also, the question will continue to rear it's head every 25-30 years. I see that the Devo max option is gone; that is quite astute on Cameron's part. Full indy may a step too far for many.
After a brief period of independence, we then simply use our armed forces to invade Scotland and take it all back on our terms. I do believe we have a bit of previous around this and this time a few hairy arsed men in skirts waving sticks isn't going to help the Scots.
Try it; You think the Taliban give you problems... š
They are already in the EU with all that that entails
Its not a region its a country - hence why its a Union
In all seriousness, this could not have come at a worse time for the Unionists. Dave seems to be trying to big up all the good times we have had together,which is a great policy "And remember when Auntie Margaret tested out the poll tax on you guys first? God,great times eh?"
Not so good for the Telegraph reading wing maybe, but the rest of the Conservative party? Get rid of the Scottish Labour MPs, and they've suddenly got a much less competition. Personally think the referendum is a win-win situation for Cameron.
as for SNP /Labour merging whi knows but the SNP may loose much appeal onc ethey dont have independence as a rallying cry
IIRC, the SNP exist to achieve independence, once they do that they should dissolve. Then we get to vote for our new government.
IIRC, the SNP exist to achieve independence, once they do that they should dissolve. Then we get to vote for our new government.
You think the SNP politicians will willingly give up power???
They are already in the EU with all that that entails
Its not a region its a country - hence why its a Union
Scotland as an independent nation is NOT in the EU.. and do you really think that an independent scotland will still be able to use sterling?
You think the SNP politicians will willingly give up power???
Constitutionally, I believe they have to.
Well, as a Sassenach living north of the border. I can't say I have any ill feelings about Scottish Independence from the UK. They've proven to be a thoroughly decent bunch since I've been here. And there choice and right to take it deserves to be respected.
The Scottish people deserve this choice. And I can't for the life of me fathom why your average Joe Bloggs would be annoyed by it.
If they want independence from the UK, all the best to 'em (well I will be with them so I would say that). If they choose to remain within the UK, WA HEY, I'll get the beer in.
I do feel that the economics arguments for and against should not be key in the debate. It's a question of self determination!
That said, if they do choose independence I do feel sorry for England. Especially the North who risk living under a perpetual Tory government. Long term is it really going to have dire economic consequences for England, I doubt it. Oil and Gas have what, another 50yrs tops. Will independence even make that much of a dent, 5.25 million people in Scotland and 8.17 million in London alone.
I do feel that the economics arguments for and against should not be key in the debate. It's a question of self determination!
but someone has to pay for it.
Will there be an exodus of Scots going home so they can vote?
but someone has to pay for it.
People have paid a lot more for democracy
piedi di formaggio out and about yesterday.
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Scotland as an independent nation is NOT in the EU
That because it is not an independent nation - what is the radical change they need to expect then - its nothing at all isnt it
Its a weak argument against and i am not pin dancing further with you
Will there be an exodus of Scots going home so they can vote?
What about the near half a million English folk living here, will they be allowed to vote, I should hope so. Maybe they would make up for the Scots that are living happily in England that you feel should move home to vote ?
What about the near half a million English folk living here, will they be allowed to vote, I should hope so. Maybe they would make up for the Scots that are living happily in England that you feel should move home to vote ?
Yes, I'm allowed to vote. I won't however, as I believe it is there choice to make.
That because it is not an independent nation - what is the radical change they need to expect then - its nothing at all isnt itIts a weak argument against and i am not pin dancing further with you
For scotland to join the EU as an independent member they have to agree to accept the Euro. Pretty radical move if you ask me.
Its going really really well for small independent nation states in the Eurozone at the moment, isn't it? š
For scotland to join the EU as an independent member they have to agree to accept the Euro. Pretty radical move if you ask me.
Can Scotland automatically claim membership, or is a vote needed from the current members?
independent nation states in the Eurozone
Are there such things anymore?
Its going really really well for small independent nation states in the Eurozone at the moment, isn't it?
Belgium and Holland are doing alright, Austria seems OK... Portugal and Ireland aren't...
For scotland to join the EU as an independent member they have to agree to accept the Euro. Pretty radical move if you ask me.
You sure about that?
There is a certain irony.
We want out of your union!!!!! You'ze can all **** right off
But why?
Because we want to join that one instead!!!!
Or are we going for the Arc of Prosperity thing again?
š
Maybe this is all part of the EUs big plan to nibble away at the European states bit by bit by stiring regional descent.. next will be CataloƱa.
The pathological nightmare of a socialist states of Europe will not be derailed.
There is a certain irony.We want out of your union!!!!! You'ze can all **** right off
But why?
Because we want to join that one instead!!!!
Choice kinda cancels out the irony dontcha think ? š
