Well, kinda needs saying, you can spend 500 years trying to overthrow the capitalist system, or you can go and actually reducing CO2 and methane emissions..
1960s actually...
Lets reconvene in 2050... i might still be here sat by the (very) sunny window... and see how much we have achieved.
Well you’re not going to achieve anything outside the dominant economic system, and if that system is organised in a way that makes solving the problem impossible, then you need to adjust the economic system, no?
depends if you class changing the fuel source of the system changing the system. same system different fuel source is more likely than anything more revolutionary.
Unfortunately @seosamh77 - that's a policy of failure.
Deep systemic change is the minimum requirement unfortunately.
Of course, it won't happen. We don't make it as a species. We lack the intellect to do the necessary.
Wot Cheveychase says... we are designed to fail.
chevychase
Free Member
We don’t make it as a species
😆
What if the problem isnt capitalism but democracy?
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/nov/01/the-big-idea-is-democracy-up-to-the-task-of-climate-change
.
Democracy is unfortunately the weak link in the change chain.
When a big enough event happens in China, they’ll fix their system overnight even if it’s hard for their people.* In the West our politicians will wail and gnash their teeth, but fail to do anything that will mean they definitely lose their next election.
It’s a dilemma.
* that’s not to say China is a good model for government, it’s not. I like being a democratic European, thanks.
Capitalism and Liberalism? Not great for "enforcement"
I think this is a pretty good take on the issue
aw oh, someones posted that dick peterson, threads a bogey. 😆
Btw that wasn't a good summary at all, he basically surmised it as it's difficult, so F it. He's an arse that you should never listen to again.
it's a long winded variation on this....
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/What-If-Its-A-Hoax-56a74f4c5f9b58b7d0e8f300.jpg)
The short version:
He’s an arse that you should never listen to again.
Very much this. Same goes for that ‘bunny hugging’ Bozo. At this time of the world we seem to have the very worst people to look up to. There was a perfect phrase that I remember from way back in the day:
‘Think global - act local’
Nowadays it seems to be ‘buy global - drive local’
Democracy is unfortunately the weak link in the change chain.
Kind of. How do we get better democracy? By educating the electorate. In almost all the world's problems the answer is education. It really is the bottom line.
Democracy is unfortunately the weak link in the change chain.
Which is why I stated earlier in the thread that if I was world dictator solving climate change would be a doddle.
We know what needs to change but nobody has the will to change it/doesn't actually want to change it and just offers up goals for 30 years time which are so far away they are no linked to any sort of reality.
He’s an arse that you should never listen to again.
Plus 1, blokes a turd
@trailwagger (while I observe that it’s an attractive and profitable position for Peterson/PragerU/Ben Shapiro Inc to poo-poo the issue and also to decry/doom-say efforts to address this problem which they also deny exists) fair enough, as long as you’re aware of whom/what you’re promoting?
Does Peterson really believe that global warming and climate change are faked, or not an issue, or not understood? Yes, he’s that intellectually arrogant, and is rewarded richly for being so, so he’s sticking with it.
Is he right about climate change? No, even less so than on most of the other topics he spouts off about. But it won’t stop him until his audience stops listening and roaring their approval.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/20/jordan-b-peterson-climate-change-denier-faux-lover-of-science/
depends if you class changing the fuel source of the system changing the system. same system different fuel source is more likely than anything more revolutionary.
Fuel isn't the only issue.
Our current system is built on the concept of consumption, consumerism and profits, all of which are the expense of the earth and its resources. This exponential growth can't continue if we as a species keep breeding and each wants to keep consuming at the rate we do.
Deep systemic change is the minimum requirement unfortunately.
+1
Our current system is built on the concept of consumption, consumerism and profits, all of which are the expense of the earth and its resources. This exponential growth can’t continue if we as a species keep breeding and each wants to keep consuming at the rate we do.
Exactly. Even simple things like meat production.
Could most of the world stop eating meat tomorrow - yes very easily. Will they, not a chance.
And that is before the excuses come in about whole industries being based around it, jobs, money etc,.
Could most of the world stop eating meat tomorrow – yes very easily. Will they, not a chance.
Perhaps someone should show how we would be able to grow enough for 7 billion people first, because thats maybe ok on paper but there are A the logistics of freeing up that much arable lands, the size of workforce to farm it, their needs- living etc, how all thats going to be paid for, where the fuel s going to come from for the millions of bits of farm machinery.
Etc etc etc.
No doubt I'll face abusive postings for suggesting it, but nobody has yet to actually prove it can be done and they certainly are missing out saying how many challenges that idea would need to solve and rather just waving over those questions without actually answering them
And take note, many of the greatest famines we've seen in the world are in countries where crops make up the staple diet.
The climate is changing and how would that affect crop growth. What happens if we have a bad run of weather and cannot feed millions of people, what then 😕
Maybe cut down more of the amazon to make space 😉
Incidentally, the Brazilian timber industry is 1/3 the size of Canada's, and less than half that of both Finland and Sweden. When it comes to cutting down forestry, Brazil is 4th on the list.
Everything is great in the imagination of an idea world, but I for one think it is completely unachievable.
It's a fairly pessimistic tone on this thread, seems like many believe we're not going to turn this around. So maybe we should give at least some attention to whatever the most likely outcome is, and how to mitigate the worst impacts. Beyond it being described as "disastrous" I'm not sure what the real life impact of this case is expected to be, anyone seen a good summary of the predictions ??
Beyond it being described as “disastrous” I’m not sure what the real life impact of this case is expected to be, anyone seen a good summary of the predictions ??
Do a search on 3 degree climate rise and you will get lots to read and watch.
Most land regions will see more hot days, especially in the tropics. At 1.5 degrees Celsius warming, about 14 percent of Earth’s population will be exposed to severe heatwaves at least once every five years, while at 2 degrees warming that number jumps to 37 percent. Extreme heatwaves will become widespread at 1.5 degrees Celsius warming.
From
NASA
the Brazilian timber industry is 1/3 the size of Canada’s
Are you talking about legal forestry?
Canada cuts, replants, cuts, replants. Yes Canada are clearing massive swaths of the boreal forest for oil sands which is really shitty, but isn't the main concern about amazon deforestation that its getting clear cut for cattle and feed for livestock and palm oil for shitty candy.
I'm a bit lost on your crop concerns though dyna-ti. Are you saying that cows are more resilient than crops to "a run of bad weather" can cows go without water and food and are a buffer against drought?
I'm interested to the factors behind not being able to feed people without meat?
I'm onboard with getting rid of massive cattle raising facilities. Meat only available locally through sustainable programs. Yes meat gets hideously expensive but so are truffles and consequently I don't eat those.
https://www.fao.org/gleam/results/en/
tbh personally I could probably be convinced to give up beef, I reckon that's probably a more achievable aim that giving up meat(although milk and cheese would be an effort too I guess). Doubt I could give up chicken tbh.
in general would should all try and reduce our meat consumption no doubt, but it's not a solution on it's own either.
Being UK specific, heat and travel emissions are probably much more of a concern for us.
Brazilian timber industry is 1/3 the size of Canada’s, and less than half that of both Finland and Sweden. When it comes to cutting down forestry, Brazil is 4th on the list
What are you trying to say?
I think there's quite a big difference between coping down fresh, virgin, old growth rainforest and cutting down trees that are part of a managed plantation with relatively quick growing pine.
Are you saying that cows are more resilient than crops to “a run of bad weather” can cows go without water and food and are a buffer against drought?
No Im not comparing cows to anything. Lets keep cows out of this 😆 Im just looking at the ability to grow the crops and the logistics of that.
I think there’s quite a big difference between coping down fresh, virgin, old growth rainforest and cutting down trees that are part of a managed plantation with relatively quick growing pine.
But if trees are so important, why then are they cutting any down ?. And its not something that takes a year to grow. 15-20 years for a tree from sapling to harvest.
So we could say then cutting down rainforest is A-OK, as long as we plant trees there in Brazil.
All we hear about is Brazil this, rainforest that, but nothing about the gigantic Canadian and Swedish and Finnish lumber industries. It sometimes looks like Brazil is getting the blame when the timber industry is chopping down ten time that amount yearly.
Brazil is a poor country, and that timber puts meat on the table. Canada et all are rich, very rich countries by comparison. Would it not be better to allow Brazil to utilize their cash crop, oh and plant new saplings, and Canada et all can diversify elsewhere.
Maybe cut down more of the amazon to make space
Most of which is being cleared for livestock. Still, at least it helps conform you dont know what your talking about
I'm actually slightly amused how quickly you reacted to the "eat less/no meat". Do you now have a range of copy and paste options and sit their waiting to pounce.
The difference between deforestation in the tropics and other places is that tropical rainforest grows incredibly quickly and absorbs far more carbon than at other latitudes. So a hectare of rainforest lost is far worse for global temperatures than a hectare of Canadian taiga.
Most of which is being cleared for livestock
And soya.
Brazil is projected to retain its position as the largest soybean producer over the next decade
Now who is it we know uses a lot of soya 😉
In total the UK annually imports approximately 3.2 million tonnes of soya bean equivalents directly in the form of soya beans, meal and oil.
Actually Piemonster 😕 I'm surprised you didn't know that.
It isn’t. Livestock is far far ahead of anything else. And no amount of vacuous whataboutery will change that.
Now who is it we know uses a lot of soya 😉
Your mate Billy bovine actually
Your mate Billy bovine actually
80% or more to feed livestock according to Google.
It isn’t. Livestock is far far ahead of anything else. And no amount of vacuous whataboutery will change that.
Wahstaboutery 😕 I spoke about crop production, and was faced by a question about cattle production. WTF has a question to do with crops got to do with cattle. Might as well ask a question about suss frames and have someone answer with Hardtail frames. Whataboutery you say. I say why not stick on topic and answer the bloody question instead of diverting into something else.
Your mate Billy bovine actually
Yup. Anyone else ?
Beyond it being described as “disastrous” I’m not sure what the real life impact of this case is expected to be, anyone seen a good summary of the predictions ??
From 11min 30secs
This is also worth remembering:
Also look up ‘Holocene extinction acceleration’
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/24/13596
*deleted*
Changing subject not even slightly, did anyone else watch The Trick?
Yup. Anyone else ?
Yup, pigs, sheep, goats, chicken and other poultry.
Humans too, but the overwhelming majority goes to livestock
Probably a lot of things @P7. Beer, bread, Whiskey amongst other things.
WTF has a question to do with crops got to do with cattle
WTF has your deflection have to do with this, which you posted a short while ago
Maybe cut down more of the amazon to make space
Your mate Billy bovine actually
Yup. Anyone else ?
*edit*. Updated
20 Feb 2020 Author(s) Walter Fraanje:
The poultry industry remains the biggest user of soya, with more than two-thirds of soya imported last year into the UK used by the sector, mostly to feed birds reared to produce chicken meat, according to the AIC data…
… The UK’s consumption of soy is an important sustainability concern, but too little data are currently available to get a precise overview of the different uses of soy in the UK. What is clear from estimations though, is that the vast majority of the UK’s soy imports (at least 90%) is fed to animals; much less (at most 10%) is being used for direct human consumption. Most soy, furthermore, is used in poultry and pig production. That said, other sectors – including beef and dairy farming as well as aquaculture – are still responsible for a considerable part of soy consumption in the UK.
https://www.tabledebates.org/blog/soy-uk-what-are-its-uses
Thats a great question and answer P7, and unlike other posters you didnt expect a change of subject and go on about animal feeds.
Isn't it amazing when people stick to the topic at hand.
You seeing this piemonster ?. Stick to the topic and question asked and not go off on a tangent looking for a counter argument.
No I didnt miss it at all. 36% was the figure I got from google too. Didnt know the human percentage on grain or that of bio fuels, but on the human aspect i was going to answer things like Bread, Whiskey and Beer.
A great study by National Geographic. But have you something a little more current. That ones now 7 years old, and more is understood about how the changing weather might affect it.
Now, back to the question at hand. Soya production for Vegan and vegetarian diets. I take it those who follow such take note of the supply chain and dont just pop down to the supermarket to buy it there. I'd be so so disappointed to find those highly moral souls were contributing to the destruction of the rainforests.
