@tjagain Ah, see, that's not zero carbon. That's low carbon, another term altogether. Don't confuse the two. Basically it's how they equate the AGRs to be environmentally friendly because they cannot say they are zero carbon since they emit tonnes* of the stuff whenever they have to blow down the pressure vessel. Sizewell, on the other hand, IS zero carbon and by 2030 or so all (both) of the nuclear stations will be since AGRs are a dying breed.
*in relative terms they really are low carbon in comparison to the equivalent fossil fuelled power station.
Low-carbon energy is:
Wind, solar, hydro or nuclear power,
Scottish government papers refer to "low carbon"
Edit - as does the UK government
https://www.gov.uk/topic/climate-change-energy/low-carbon-energy
Dude - its just semantics at the end of the day - what you refer to as zero carbon is zero carbon when generating but low carbon when you look at total lifetime embedded
Lets not fall out over it please?
Yes, all of those together are low carbon. Take nuclear away and they are zero carbon.
It's like a Venn diagram, imagine you have XC, DH, Enduro and Kirin. All of them are cycling disciplines but only three of them are mountain biking.
That they are included under one broader term does not preclude their inclusion in another, more specific group.
EDIT Im not falling out, yes I was annoyed (also had a Shite Day) but I can see where you were coming from now. Its the greenwashing you talk about to a certain degree but it's also just some of the wooly terminology that gets flung about. Someone posted something about the various colours of hydrogen before, Germany went off their nut that France wanted to allow it in the blue spectrum if it was nuclear generated. I dunno, the politics side is the usual pish, when you scrape that bit away though it's pretty sensible and stays within the lines.
edit for your edit - all cool dude ( or warming as the case may be)
Regarding the sliced pears in a plastic pot, it's up to us the consumer to not buy this kind of food.
Some/most people in general are lazy, they won't go to a refill shop on a Saturday because it interferes with their pyjama day, while binge watching some crap on telly.
They won't read the ingredients on products to see where they've been made/produced or if they contain something damaging such as palm oil (the type not sustainably grown).
All these little adjustments to life aren't hard and don't take up too much time. Every single one of us can play our part in doing something to help.
It's going to be the children of today that will have to educate their parents.
Regarding the sliced pears in a plastic pot, it’s up to us the consumer to not buy this kind of food.
Rubbish. Governments could easily legislate to prevent this sort of ridiculous product. Consumers have neither the time (or the inclination) to research every single product they buy, most of them are too busy bringing up kids, working and keeping their heads above water. This is a perfect example where governments need to show leadership.
Putting the burden on individuals is greenwash, and a complete abdication of responsibility on the part of governments. It's essentially allowing the planet to burn at the altar of neo-liberal ideology.
Here's an interesting one;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58959045
While it's good they are providing (albeit limited) help to get heat pumps, it doesn't really cover a lot of the issues with them (and the general move away from gas heating).
My (small sample) experience:
I looked at heat pumps for my girlfriend's place and my own flat.
However, they won't really work as the flats aren't insulated enough. Hers is an old 1800s house with solid walls and mine is a 1980s tenement.
They would both need solid wall insulation added and probably something between the floors? Plus, my flat has drafty sash and case windows which, due to being in a conservation area and it being a listed building are really difficult to change. So that means secondary glazing all round.
Then, it seems that the central heating system isn't good enough to work with a heat pump - it needs underfloor heating or upgraded radiators etc.
So.... lots and lots of costs to get it working! And, at least for my flat, I'm spending £200 a year on gas for my heating and hot water so, even if the heat pump was free, I'd have to spend £1000s and £1000s to get it working.
Also, I'm lucky as there is a flat roof outside my flat. Most tenements don't have that, so where is the pump going to go? Would they have to have some kind of central system for the building???
The sash and case thing in conservation areas is an interesting one as it's a dilemma I have been ignoring for some time. I know a couple nearby that ignored the restrictions and now have warm homes. And I know a couple nearby that spent a small fortune on timber sash and case that are already drafty and in need of repainting after just a couple of years. Very exposed location with weather straight off the sea.
On the other hand, those without drafts, what happens to there windows at end of life, do they still ho straight to landfill?
Theres a 3rd group as well, those with old drafty windows that cant afford to replace them as a consequence of conservation restrictions.
Regarding the sliced pears in a plastic pot, it’s up to us the consumer to not buy this kind of food.
Nah, people just aren't like that. Some are, most aren't. If you want the world's problems to be solved just by consumers taking an interest and creating ethical and eco-friendly demand, you'll be waiting forever. Not least because it's too easy for manufacturers to green-wash things, and people don't want to make the effort to really dig into what they are buying. It's pretty exhausting to do all the time.
Meat is bad for the environment, right? But how bad? This lamb is hill farmed and grass fed in Wales on land that can't be used for other purposes, but raising sheep does seriously deplete the natural environment. We might have more trees if it weren't for the sheep, BUT at higher latitudes tree cover might contribute more to global warming because of the decreased albedo. The science isn't clear on this. So what about this veggie burger? Well, it's made of soy, but does that soy come from cleared rainforests? It doesn't say on the packet. And what if the rainforest has already been cleared anyway? Don't developing countries have a right to clear their land to farm food, as we did? But what about food miles? I dunno, air-lifting fresh produce from the southern hemisphere is bad but what about dried soy beans on a slow boat? Also this veggie burger, where was it made? Was it shipped somewhere? This lamb came from the hills 20 miles away. But were the lambs fed on soy anyway? How about some chicken then? It's free-range, but what does that really mean? How free range is it? What about all those minced male chicks? Is that worse than all the animals that are now never going to be born in the rainforest that is now a soy plantation? Right, well never mind that, I also need washing powder. Phosphates are bad, but then more powerful cleaning products need lower temperatures. So it's water pollution vs energy consumption, which is worse? That article on phosphates I read though - how old was it? Companies have been improving recently. There's more biological powder that can clean at lower temperatures now with less harmful chemicals BUT is it going to ruin my clothes or give me allergies? And was that article from the US? They have different regulations there, perhaps our products are already regulated better? Or are they? Whilst I'm here I also need bog roll. Recycled is good, isn't it? But what about all the extra bleach? Hmm, dunno. Oh, I actually came in for milk. Dairy farming is bad, right? But was that a US article? Do I have growth hormones and antibiotics in THIS milk? We don't have intensive feed lots here.. this is mostly grass fed, but how much? And this is organic, but is that really good? How about almond milk, that's plant based, lovely.. but are too many phytoestrogens bad for me, or bad for the marine life downstream? And almonds, they take huge amounts of water to grow.. but how much water does that area have? Where are they even from? Were local almond pickers exploited? Oh, I need veg too. Frozen vs fresh? Any nutritional difference? Is the embedded carbon of shipping this stuff from Spain more or less than keeping British stuff frozen for 3 months?
How is the consumer meant to successfully navigate all that stuff? It's basically impossible.
we need new technology to reduce co2 in the atmosphere and deploy that technology in the countries that are the most polluting and the developing countries that need cheap energy to develop. That is the best and most useful contribution we in the UK can make.
That sounds great.
What is this ‘new technology’ that the UK might contribute to our lessers who already output around the same/possibly less) CO2 per capita as ‘The West’* even whilst supplying us with the majority of our luxury throwaway lifestyle products barely-above-Stone-Age products and industrial machinery?
*I’d like to see these figures.
How is the consumer meant to successfully navigate all that stuff? It’s basically impossible.
No it isn’t, not with decent labelling. It’s basically possible. Although I take your argument it ignores the fact that most consumers are just lazy-minded and care more about just getting stuff. The word ‘consumer’ replaces more than a few words, it also too-often replaces self-awareness, or sense of responsibility, or connection to the natural world, or understanding of scant/fragile resources.
We can choose to be actively self-aware/responsible humans or instead be simple grasping consumer-monkeys who know the ‘price of everything yet the value (and impact) of nothing’. Many fall somewhere between. I’d suggest that the worst case scenario is easily having the ability to get it ‘wrong’ 30% of the time yet choosing instead to not bother/squander 100% because of a few frustrations. ‘How am I supposed to know that Coltan is bad? I only have enough braincells tonight to navigate the entire glossary of backend development in a number of systems’…
I was watching a tv programme about cruise ships visiting a private island on the Bahamas. Part of the programme went into how much food they need. Each day is measured in the hundreds of kg of each item. It just makes me realise how futile expecting change actually is
Although you have good points molgrips, we DO need to take responsibility for our actions.
You could sit on a settee all day, but instead we choose to go mtbiking. It's fun and gets us out with added exercise.
We mtbike because we've found something to suit the way we want to exercise. We know we need to exercise, we know we shouldn't sit doing nothing all day. We have taken some sort of responsibility. Why should the government (any government) have to do everything for us. We NEED and should take responsibility for this planet.
Bunnyhop
Free Member
Although you have good points molgrips, we DO need to take responsibility for our actions.
You could sit on a settee all day, but instead we choose to go mtbiking. It’s fun and gets us out with added exercise.We mtbike because we’ve found something to suit the way we want to exercise. We know we need to exercise, we know we shouldn’t sit doing nothing all day. We have taken some sort of responsibility. Why should the government (any government) have to do everything for us. We NEED and should take responsibility for this planet.
because it's structural problems that are the issue, the market doesn't have the inclination to solve the problem. The market isn't going to subsidise the necessary change.
Impossible or quite easy:
Veg I buy either at the local market where the sellers have their address up somewhere. If not the supermarket, the origin is clearly marked and whether it's bio or not.
Beef: really easy, Blondes d'Aquitaine only eat grass or hay.
Cheese: either locally made fromage de brebis from up the hill or something from a local factory.
Milk: no thanks
Fruit mostly comes from France but I'm happy to buy Spanish early season. Both are no doubt packed with pesticides. Bananas are usually from Martinique or other DOM TOM
Almonds: no idea where they are from, packed in Germany.
Bog paper: she chooses
Washing liquid: anything that doen't give me hay fever too badly - they all give me hayfever. The temperature of the wash is whatever the solar panel is running at except in Summer when I dilute with cold because it's too hot. I did look into an electrolosis washing machine that doesn't need washing liquid but feedback wasn't good so bought another cheap Italian one.
Bread: local boulangerie, French flour.
Freezer: I rarely buy frozen unless it's to eat right away as the freezer part of the fridge is tiny.
Local wine: spoilt for choice.
Why should the government (any government) have to do everything for us. We NEED and should take responsibility for this planet.
Because most of the things that cause climate change are far beyond the ability of individuals to impact. As I said earlier, this is just ideological neoliberal dogma dressed up as green unicorns.
The underlying root cause of climate change is capitalism, or more specifically a form of capitalism where corporations and governments don't have to account for their use of natural resources, carbon emissions and other externalities which cause environmental destruction.
The only organisations in the world which can implement the global macroeconomic change required to stop catastrophic climate change are governments. The only thing required of the public is to put pressure on politicians to implement those changes, and then accept them when they happen.
btw i'm not saying, don't be considerate in your actions, but don't think it's even close to a solution.
The only organisations in the world which can implement the global macroeconomic change required to stop catastrophic climate change are governments.
You keep saying this when there's plenty of evidence that it's individuals and capitalists bringing about change.
Who invests in wind power? - capitalists
Who invests in solar power? - capitalists and house holders
Who insulates the housing stock? - property owners
Who makes and buys e-bikes, scooters, EVs? me and many others
Who decides to take the train? people
Who decides to stop flying? people
Even with governments subsidising the fossil fuel industries of the world renewables are progressing thanks to private investment
No it isn’t, not with decent labelling. It’s basically possible.
The point is that in many cases people no-one even knows what's overall 'better' or 'worse'. Sometimes it's a tradeoff between two bad things. People seem to want to know 'is this good for the environment or not?' Well, there's a lot of discussion, but the manufacturers will jump on whatever they can spin to make their product sound good. And how is the average shopper supposed to be able to unpick all that? This is why we need governance, which was my point. Labelling is a good example.
we DO need to take responsibility for our actions
Yes, but actually making the decision which action to take isn't always easy and can be exhausting, for a lot of people especially when being advertised at left and right. Leaving it up to the public isn't a good strategy. They get told something is the right thing to do, then they get told it's not, so they get confused, frustrated and give up.
Impossible or quite easy:
Believe it or not, this post isn't about you Ed. It's about the average shopper, and you certainly aren't that.
The underlying root cause of climate change is capitalism, or more specifically a form of capitalism where corporations and governments don’t have to account for their use of natural resources, carbon emissions and other externalities which cause environmental destruction.
This is exactly it.
You cannot leave it up to the individuals. It's been up to the individuals for 30 years and we're still not doing anywhere near enough. We need change.
Who invests in wind power? – capitalists
Who invests in solar power? – capitalists and house holders
Who insulates the housing stock? – property owners
Who makes and buys e-bikes, scooters, EVs? me and many others
Who decides to take the train? people
Who decides to stop flying? people
But NOT ENOUGH of all these things, that's the point! Not enough people are investing in these things. And loads of that was government driven by exactly the sort of policy we're asking for.
Why are people buying EVs? In the UK most of them are or were company cars made feasible by the zero BIK tax, this helped increase volumes and bring the prices down. And manufacturers are investing heavily because of the upcoming EU and UK sales ban. A government action.
Who decides to take the train? Not enough people (in the UK), because there aren't enough trains, because government policy has been to under-invest. Why don't I take the train or tram into town? Because this large suburb was built without any kind of train station and Cardiff's trams were ripped up in the 60s. Government policies.
It’s about the average shopper
Or the average drinker or smoker or petrolhead or serial flyer. In threads on here it's not ignorance or confusion that leads people to smoking, drinking too much, eating junk or flying to Malaga to do everything possible to get ski cancer. Read a Friday EDL thread, people know they are poisoning themselves and quite happy about it, they rejoice in it even.
If you want to do the right thing it's often quite easy, but people like smoking drinking, doing dohnuts, washing down a burger with coke and doing a line of the same.
The solutions are easy and affordable for the many but as some make clear on this thread they won't do anything. I don't know what he spends his money on and that's his business. He's made a choice not to do anything on a personal level and rely on government. He'll no doubt complain like hell if/when they do do something and put on a yellow jacket and go and occupy a roundabout - because that's what happens when governments try to do anything
Or the average drinker or smoker or petrolhead or serial flyer. In threads on here it’s not ignorance or confusion that leads people to smoking, drinking too much, eating junk or flying to Malaga to do everything possible to get ski cancer. Read a Friday EDL thread, people know they are poisoning themselves and quite happy about it, they rejoice in it even.
That's exactly my point. You can't rely on people to change on their own, even on here in a fairly middle class educated place. However where you and I differ is that you seem to think you can just exhort people to change and they will. Most people don't work like that. As I said, it's been at least 30 years of eco campaigning and we're nowhere near good enough. It's no good just huffing and saying 'well you're just all lazy and idle and it's all your fault'. Ok, yes, but that doesn't help. We need action and we need it now.
If you want to do the right thing it’s often quite easy, but people like smoking drinking, doing dohnuts, washing down a burger with coke and doing a line of the same.
Giving up something you like is NOT easy.
We need action and we need it now.
On this much we agree and I'm sure Greta would be pleased. So I act. But I recognise that when governments try to act they meet with resistance. A jounalist on the radio made me smile this morning when he refered to France as "le pays de diesels et de clopes", the country of diesel and fags. There's not a lot to be done with the 25% of smokers who are also likely to hang around on a roundabout drinking in a yellow vest and drive a smokey diesel. But there's the other 75%. You can get those on board to varying degrees through education, economic stimulus, tax breaks, and through capitalists meeting their eco-demands.
We need action, need it now but it needs to done in such a way as to avoid another revolution kicking off.
But I recognise that when governments try to act they meet with resistance.
From the very people you are suggesting relying on to change.
But there’s the other 75%. You can get those on board to varying degrees through education, economic stimulus, tax breaks, and through capitalists meeting their eco-demands.
Yes, and who's going to instigate the education, coerce the capitalists and create the tax breaks and stimuli? Governments.
So far the UK govt has only done the easy stuff - banning ICEs and incentivising EVs is easy because it means car makers will continue to sell cars or possibly sell more. Investing in rail much less so because it costs a shitload of money and most people don't care about trains, because they don't take them - because they are expensive and the service isn't great.
I'm in favour of HS2 as a concept but not really only is own - we need it, as well as loads more branch lines and high speed backbone.
Yes, and who’s going to instigate the education, coerce the capitalists and create the tax breaks and stimuli? Governments.
The same Governments that have been giving tax breaks and stimuli to fossil fuel companies for the last 50+ years while building the entire global economy on oil?
Those Governments?
The same Governments that have been giving tax breaks and stimuli to fossil fuel companies for the last 50+ years while building the entire global economy on oil?
Those Governments?
No, not these specific ones obvioulsy, what I meant was only governments in general have the power to do this stuff.
It seems to me that it's Bund, Green Geace, Friends of the Earth, school kids and people gluing themselves to motorways - in short, protestors that are doing the educating. There's a paper copy of Bund on my sofa tut tut.
What was the start of your eco-awareness? For me it was the 70s, Germans protesting and the start of solar city Freiburg, the alternative technology center in Wales, then came my job with Welsh Water.
Governments and fossil fuel industry, chemical industry lobby groups on one side and the environmentalists on the other. A Water Company scientist battling it out with the CEGB in my case.
As with many previous battles you can't look to governments to instigate change, you need protesters taking them to court.
Ozone, lead in petrol, proving smoking kils, diesel gate. You can't rely on government, you need activitsts.
Edukator
Free MemberOzone, lead in petrol, proving smoking kils, diesel gate. You can’t rely on government, you need activitsts.
That statement just proves you need both really. Personal action didn't stop CFC's it needed legislation for example..
True, seosahm77, and it was the results from a government lab that allowed journalists to launch diesel gate.
And Greeenpeace that provokesd CFC legislation with an alternative gas:
Governments tend to follw people / activists on this sort of issue
gonna be interesting what happens in Scotland now we have greens in government - the first time ever in any part of the UK
the greens will have to swallow some stuff they don't like to get some stuff they do like thru. A compromise they have not had to make so far
First battle is the Cambo oilfields - greens have had to swallow that but there will have to be a quid pro quo.
As with many previous battles you can’t look to governments to instigate change, you need protesters taking them to court.
You're not understanding my point. I'm not saying the governments we currently.have are going to do anything. Clearly they couldn't find their arse with both hands. What I'm saying is that it's the role of government to do thehese things. How to get a government that will do them is another issue.
Activists need to lobby governments, as well as people. And they certainly don't need to piss people off by gluing themselves to roads. You need the people on your side not against you. I'm not sure anyone would have listened to Attenborough or Thunberg if they'd just been simply stopping people getting home.
I live in place where people are in the habit of doing things that will piss some people off to make things happen. The street I used to live in got closed every time there was a load of manure, burning tyres or even angry cyclists in front of the prefecture. If people know the cause is right and just they're remarkably tolerant. The TV here is quite good, they always find one person in the traffic queue who is anti-protest and another person who agrees with the protestors and is happy to sit in their car and wait if that's what it takes. Two sides to every story and all that.
Indeed we do need the protesters.
I've been a member of Greenpeace for many years. Unfortunately I keep this info to myself as many people have long memories, regarding 'Rainbow Warrior'.
The very people who protest and are members of environmental groups such as Greenpeace, Friends of the earth and others are preaching to the converted. How do we get through to others, who (I can put it politely) don't give a toss?
I've given up with my own version of educating, eg persuading a family member to use products such as ecover, or maybe not to wash their fairly clean clothes too often, as these people always have an excuse not to.
At a 'friends of the earth' talk the speaker said, "the children that are being taken to school half a mile up the road in a giant 4x4 , aren't going to thank their parents as it doesn't mean anything to the child". The child would be safer walking in a large group.
I’ve been a member of Greenpeace for many years. Unfortunately I keep this info to myself as many people have long memories, regarding ‘Rainbow Warrior’
You should be taking your action to Borneo, Papau New Guinea, Brazil coz that's where all the virgin forests are found and soon to be gone.
No point protesting in the West coz the Western governments are powerless against China.
Rainbow warrior should ram all the big trawlers all over the world. Ramming speed please!
How do we get through to others, who (I can put it politely) don’t give a toss?
It's tricky. But stopping them getting to work is probably not the right way to do it.
Generally, to change minds, the best tactic seems to be to normalise it. People take their cues from their peers. So over time ideas spread from person to person. That's why it's so important for example to have a non-commercial broadcaster like the BBC, because it can show things that a large number of people can watch. That's why it's such a tragedy that the Tories are trying to suppress what they consider a 'leftie agenda'.
I mean it's working, gradually people are getting the message, but not quickly enough. The problem is that there may in fact be a speed limit to this process.
If people know the cause is right and just they’re remarkably tolerant.
And that's a big IF. If you are protesting against something that people already agree with, or you can position it so people are likely to agree (e.g. appeal to patriotism) you're onto a winner. If however you're trying to persuade people to stop doing things they enjoy - that's obviously a lot harder.
I’ve given up with my own version of educating, eg persuading a family member to use products such as ecover, or maybe not to wash their fairly clean clothes too often, as these people always have an excuse not to.
Exactly. That's why it needs legislation to ban the environmentally damaging stuff. Which I think there has been, to be fair.
Which I think there has been, to be fair.
fiddling around the edges while the world burns. Politicians will not do it unless pushed hard because the types of measures needed are vote losers
Look at the fuss over the petrol price escalator of recent years. Look what happens when any sort of green taxation is proposed. Look at the massive subsidies from the public purse to polluters
Look to the corruption of governments because the polluters have such huge financial clout.
A timely piece on the very subject of government action. It’s been done before, and can be done again.
Current proposals are misguided; the rich West might decarbonise, but the developing world won't - and why would they? Climate change isn't even in the top 10 of the most pressing issues they face and cheap energy/ ubiquitous electricity would solve most of 1 to 10 .
The only realistic proposal I've seen is solar Geo-Engineering. The earth's temperature drops 1-2degs after a major volcanic eruption. It would cost around $10b PA to replicate the effect, and inject SO2 & particulates into the upper atmosphere. Scary stuff I appreciate.
Deep-Greens would hate that solution, but for them its not really about climate change is it?
Seems to me that biggest problem is that the human race has been too successful and there are too many of us, couple that with a world economy based on consumption and we are basically screwed,I personally think that unless we do something about overpopulation then everything else is tinkering at the edges
for them its not really about climate change is it?
unless we do something about overpopulation then everything else is tinkering at the edges
I think you both need to stay away from the internet.
The planet is not over populated. We can scale carbon use right back without reducing population sizes (population growth is slowing fast anyway). And climate change isn't a "deep green" conspiracy, it is real, measurable, and we can slow it down by acting now.... and that means "us" acting, not waving our hands around because "they" aren't doing enough.
We can scale carbon use right back without reducing population sizes.
we could but we won’t. I for one like travel, like buying new bikes all of which, if you are serious about cutting emissions, could be done with out in the name of protecting the planet. Shall e get rid of bike magazines with journo’s travelling to write articles to encourage travel or buying more bike stuff?
The only realistic proposal I’ve seen is solar Geo-Engineering.
Care to divulge your qualifications and experience which has lead you to this conclusion?
I personally think that unless we do something about overpopulation then everything else is tinkering at the edges
Another one for mass genocide. Weird how this subject exposes the hidden psycopaths among us 😳
I personally think that unless we do something about overpopulation then everything else is tinkering at the edges
It's being done, birth rates are falling. But the more sustainable we make our lives the more people the planet can support. Studies have been done on this.
Climate change isn’t even in the top 10 of the most pressing issues they face
Actually it is.
