Say he was using drugs after all. I DONT CARE. His drive, survival and campaigning mark him out as a true man to me.
whyTF are you arguing about it then? So he's a god no matter what??? shouldn't a troll be more subtle?
any thoughts that what he 'may' have taken 'may' have contributed to the cancer?
back then, growth hormone was not synthetic, it was harvested from cadavers, most often from the homeless in Moscow.
any thoughts that 'maybe' LeMond was binned from Trek for his stance on Lance, rather than developing his stance after being binned?
any thoughts that his giving hope to cancer sufferers 'may' be a con 'if' he's on all sorts of illicit medication......
have you listened to Steph Mac's phone call? Her having been one of the 4 others in the hospital room when Lance told doctors what he'd taken??
none so blind as those who will not see.....
'maybe
So you don't really know the answer there do you? Why has he spent years bleating about Lance? Doesn't he have any sort of pride? Where is the self respect that a Tour winner should hold?
Has he tested positive? No. Thank you.
Why cast doubt over a man who has never tested positive considering hes gone through a hell of a lot of random tests over the years?
Why slag someone off who has achieved far more than you and me put together ever?
Baited? Laugh my socks off. Show the man some respect. Don't shoulder with company of confirmed cheats and nutjobs. The company that one keeps defines oneself...
Just love the self-loathing jealous-types.
word of the day. PARAPET
[i]none so blind as those who will not see..... [/i]
I can SEE what I said earlier in my reply to TJ: half truths, lies, coincidence, rumours, circumstantial evidence etc. No PROOF. Like it or not Armstrong is, at this moment, INNOCENT of any doping related crime. Unlike Contador.
Although personally I believe Contador is innocent as well, contamination is far and away the most likely reason for that positive. Of course whether it's contamination from eating meat or contamination from a bit of blood doping remains to be seen...
Do any of you doubters respect his second place then win at the leadville 100?
Or do you see him as some lucky cheat?
what has Leadville got to do with anything?
he is an incredible athlete. i don't think anyone is saying otherwise
ergogenic aids are not used to transform the man in the street into an endurance beast. they're used for fractional gains for already gifted athletes.
Lance's recovery from his fall on the final climb of the stage in 2003- nothing fractional could have given him what he showed that day.
Nothing.
Sorry, he remains a hero of mine.
hora, that's where idave's "already gifted athletes" bit comes in 🙄
he was the best in his time, but I doubt any of them were clean
just to clarify. ALL the top cyclists dope, they always have done, they always will do. its what they do, and they do it very, very well
[i]just to clarify. ALL the top cyclists dope[/i]
Not true. Not remotely correct.
LA passed every test the regulating authority asked him to take. End of discussion, really.
Do I think he took drugs to enhance his otherwise considerable talent? On balance, yes he probably did at some point in his career, as did most of his contemporaries in all probability.
As some-one has said before Cycling has to look at the management culture that allows (or at the least turns a blind eye to this) I've heard of Italian teams explicitly encouraging juniors (under 16's ) to take performance enhancing drugs. That's just wrong. Until that's sorted, and it needs sorting in the lesser teams in Italy and Spain urgently, then this will always be in the sport.
crazy-legs - thanks for clarifying. I was struggling to see what the issue was. If there is no legal limit presumably there is no way anyone can get it accidentally into their system.. though other evidence suggest there is. So perhaps there should be a limit, well below the performance enhancing level, for substances like this that are clearly well known performance enhancers.
I stand by him being unlucky rather than a cheat, and I'm no great fan.
Can't be bothered with the LA argument, I've never seen anything to make me think he systematically doped as opposed to just working harder than anyone else (all that anger seems to account for his more unpleasant personality traits and potentially his performance) and yes I can google as well as anybody.
I've heard of Italian teams explicitly encouraging juniors (under 16's ) to take performance enhancing drugs
If true thats disgusting. It puts someones body/future health at risk nevermind about the other arguments around the subject.
There is plenty of evidence that he is a dope cheat
As opposed to the very well documented and much, much larger body of evidence - mostly comprised of thousands of doping tests - that he didn't.
As a rational sort I place my bets where the weight of evidence is. If I was a superstitious or overly religious type of person I may put much more weight on rumour, conspiracy theory and 'gut' feeling. If I was that type of irrational person I'd probably think LA was a doper too.
When we lived in London I noticed/sat in the same bar/etc as stars. Didn't flinch. must say if I bumped into Lance I'd make a fool of myself, grin and ask for an autograph like a newborn fool 8)
well said mark.
Mark - as you well know that is fairly meaningless. The cheats have always been one step ahead of the testers and for most of Armstrongs career the testing was not very stringent.
Marion Jones? Tested far mor than armstong and far more stringently but never failed - however she doped all her career.
however you cannot prove a negative. Given that many of his teammates clearly systematically doped ( which cannot have been done without his knowledge) Given the sworn testimony from numerous people. Given his own admissions (of taking things that are now banned before they could test for them) and a huge further pile of evidence including retrospective drug tests ( and the refusal of further retrospective testing) on balance I believe he did
you can look at the evidence and believe he did not. There is no proof either way. Its not irrational no matter how much you would like it to be. its not listening to rumour and supposition.
Used to drive past Lance regularly - but that was before the cancer and just after his world's win. As my sis' knew Sean Yates's wife I was a fan of the Motorola team anyway. But yes i accept (after years of denial) that on the balance of probability (given all his rivals doped) LA did dope at some time during his post-cancer cycling career - he was just very smart at it. Still a big LA fan tho'.
I guess we have to wait and see whether Alberto fails the plastic bag test to see if he blood-doped.
Why is this even being discussed? If the amount of whatever it is in Contador's sample is 400 times less than the amount the testers are obliged to report, why has it been reported?
As for Armstrong; don't like his face. He does loads of truly admirable work for charity, can't take that away from him, but as for him being clean, even in his own words he only 'never tested positive', and din't like those who spoke out against doping...
Armstrong has some lovely friends:
[img] 
[/img]
(That's the lovely GW Bush in that pic with LA)
If the amount of whatever it is in Contador's sample is 400 times less than the amount the testers are obliged to report
It's not, try actually reading the story!
Cant be a drug cheat he cant even drop Bush.
Tough call and can see both sides. I do find it hard to believe he was able to beat all these juiced up talented athletes whilst he was the only clean one around. However his return and third at his age and clean does mean he is a phenomenal athlete without drugs. He could easily clear his name with retrospective testing if he chose. I doubt he will change his mind on that front which makes me suspicious. That said he still has relatively plausible deniability.
[b]Junkyard[/b] - MemberSo would you if they actually had hills in that there London
[url= http://www.rapha.cc/ten-x-ten-challenge-day-2-swains-lane-of-pain-challenge-1 ]Right. Swains Lane. [/url]
I'll give you a 100m head start. And I'll be on a singlespeed.
Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough....
It's not, try actually reading the story!
Oh I don't know I'm too tired what's going on?
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/9053304.stm ]
[/url]The amount of the muscle-building and fat-burning drug was 40 times less than the benchmark figure of two nanograms which the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) sets as the minimum level it must detect to prove doping.
So, what's the issue? Is he 'guilty' of doping or not? This suggest he's not, according to the rules. Or have I missed something?
Was contador doping - prob not.
If he was, would I be surpised - prob not (given his previous teams and his past)
Has Armstrong doped post cancer - prob (given the doped riders he beat, the ease with which he beat them coupled with his doped teammates) [not even mentioning the retrospective blood testing - its been covered enough on other uk forums !!]
Was lemond a better cyclist than armstrong - looking at his palmares - clearly (6 world champ podiums- 3 as winner. Grand tour runner up, grand tour winner , top 5's in Lombardy, Roubaix, San remo, Dauphine , paris-nice and when cyclists were 'proper patrons' (King Kelly, Fignon, Hinault, Mottet etc)and all when his best years were robbed as a result of a shooting accident)- watch Chambery in the rain with Fignon, Kelly Konyshev....Lemond was class...Lance when he won worlds, derided for his lask of respect. Watch Lance in last km of Fleche Wallone in 96 and tell me is clean.
Sorry for the rant but too many blinkered lance lovers on here.
See ya
So, what's the issue? Is he 'guilty' of doping or not? This suggest he's not, according to the rules. Or have I missed something?
I think what you may have missed is the plasticisers.
So a [i][u]possible[/u][/i] scenario see him pre-tour take some clenbuterol which has a short half-life, assumes (or is tested to show) it's gone, banks some good blood, then on the day in question takes the blood, some of the plasticisers from the bag and a trace fo clenbuterol and is then tested by a method with a much lower detection limit.
I think what you may have missed is the plasticisers.
Isn't this merely an allegation made by a journalist though? UCI haven't said owt about this.
These values were measured one day before the positive dope control. These blood bag softener values [b]could[/b] indicate that autologous blood doping [b]may[/b] have been performed.”
Seppelt didn’t reveal the source for his information about the plasticizer values, or explain why the urine sample that pinpointed this didn’t also show high levels of Clenbuterol.
Hmm. Someone jumping on the bandwagon trying to make a name for himself?
I'll give you a 100m head start. And I'll be on a singlespeed.
Mocks hillock involved
[img] 
[/img]
picks up gauntlet
Chooses carbon road bike 😆
Where's the hillock? I see a slight incline... 😉
Mocks hillock involvedpicks up gauntlet
Chooses carbon road bike
Excellent. Mine's a shonky old hybrid. Winner keeps loser's bike.
Remember this bit:
I will be on a singlespeed.
I shall toy with you, then destroy you.
Did I tell you my nickname is Bastardo C*ntador? 😈
anyone for a nice bit of chilli?
Tell 'im Kev...
well, that'd mean reading all that. and I can't be bothered.
No, ittud mean reading the flipping email I sent you 10 minutes ago.
FFS. ****ing useless you are... 🙄
Just from this bit:
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-alberto-tested-positive-for-clenbuterol-bronchodilator-drug-and-blames-food/page/5#post-1858424
'Ave a word with 'im will yer?
Or have I missed something?
Yes. It's 400 times less than an accredited lab is required to be able to detect, not 400 times less than an acceptable amount.
At the moment, I am off my tits on amoxicillin and buttercup syrup. I will race you elf, and I will beat you. Then I will bum you into the middle of next week!
oi, elf !
how do you ref a particular post in a thread ? 😯
I am off my tits on amoxicillin and buttercup syrup
maaan, I'm doing covonia off a hot spoon right now - could do with some "clen" for my wheeing too !
[edit] err whee[b][u]Z[/u][/b]ing, obviously 😳
Yes. It's 400 times less than an accredited lab is required to be able to detect, not 400 times less than an acceptable amount.
Oh right.
But apparently it's still not an amount deemed able to give any sort of performance boost though?
From what I've read about Glen Hoddle, it does seem possible that it was from contaminated food or something.
I'd like to think Contador isn't cheat. I really would.
At the moment, I am off my tits on amoxicillin and buttercup syrup. I will race you elf, and I will beat you. Then I will bum you into the middle of next week!
See you right, you slag; you're a racist and I will beat you up to my eyeballs on Ketamine and Glue. On that little kids bike I salvaged what has a snapped pedal and flat tyres. So don't give it all that. I'll just make you look stupid.
oi, elf !how do you ref a particular post in a thread ?
See the little # symbol between where it says how long ago and 'report post'? If you click on that, that post is at the top of the page, and the URL will load like that. Give it a go.
oh yeah! food contamination. bloody fOOD! Blame the food.
Kev you are ****ing useless. See where that Junkyard starts giving it, what you're sposed to do is come on and go 'ooh, I woon't take on that Elfinsafety if I were you; he's shit hot you know'. So he bottles it, and then becomes my bitch and I get his bike.
Just utterly rubbish you are. Right let me down. I'll have to actually race the bastard now. Thanks very much. Fat lot of good you are. 🙄
See the little # symbol...
oooh, you [b][i]are[/i][/b] clever !
no worries! I might read all that now, for curiosity.
edit. No maybe not.
oooh, you are clever !
I know! 😀
Well, cleverer than that rubbish Kevevs anyway.
Could've had a nice bike out of that... 🙁
[url= http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/10/more-on-contador-transfusion-theory.html ]interesting article by people who see to know what they're talking about[/url]
unlike us...
[url= http://bicycling.com/blogs/boulderreport/2010/09/30/contador-case-means-hard-choices-for-anti-doping/ ]another good article[/url]
Racist - me? Look, I tried explaining that I was off my nut on powerful anti histamines when I went to that BNP meeting, and that stuff about me and Nick Griffin was blown out of all proportion - a bird had done its dirty business on his trousers, and I was merely trying to clean it off 😳
nickc - interesting articles - thanks
The doctrine of strict liability has failed. What replaces it? I don’t have any easy answers. But for WADA to essentially say that it’s not responsible for divining what really is and is not doping is shirking the entire reason for existence—that is exactly what WADA is there to do.
An interesting point. If this was as a result of contaminated met as is possible why should he be banned?
I like the blood transfusion explanation but contaminated meat is plausible - and more so than many of the dopey excuses we have had in the past
Barnsley- yeah yeah.
You tell it to the judge...
🙄
Interesting lengthy piece on the back of the Sports section of the Sunday Times yesterday. Made me switch from thinking 'poor fella' to sitting on the on the fence and watching with interest.
Interesting lengthy piece on the back of the Sports section of the Sunday Times yesterday. Made me switch from thinking 'poor fella' to sitting on the on the fence and watching with interest.
Would you care to summarise?
I'll dig it out tonight.
can't you remember roughly what it said or was it not that interesting?
All sorts of stuff about plasticizers supposedly found as well which would be an indication that he'd blood doped (the plasticizers are found in the blood bags), if the trace of clenbuterol came from that then it would indicate use in training, he's removed blood and failed to clean it properly blah blah.
Spain doesn't seem to be doing too well on the doping front at the moment...
http://road.cc/content/news/25055-fourth-spanish-cyclist-fails-drugs-test-updated-fullana-admits-guilt
http://road.cc/content/news/25059-mcquaid-spain-must-get-its-house-order
But why dope on a rest day???
If he were dopeing for most gain it must be done on the day.
The transfusion would make little difference if administered 24hours previous... Look at Millars comments as a reference, and he should know!
I know, but why let the facts get in the way of a load of speculation!
German testing Doctor apparently read the evidence in the Operation case and firmly believes it was a coverup and Alberto took three substances and some other stuff countering the 'dodgy' beef his friend got for him. When quizzed where in Spain etc where they got it from neither could remember even though it was a only a few weeks previous etc etc etc.
Bigman, rest days involve no racing but do involve a good workout to keep the [s]athlete[/s]drug guinea pig in top condition. There may be a recovery benefit to it.
apparently its now coming out from the new york times that the plasticizers were found in urine the day before the rest day and blood transfusing then would very much make sense.
i so wanted to believe him as well as he seems genuine - small skinny guy is a good at climbing therefore wins grand tours but couldn't ever hope to win a classic - seems to add up. However i have always thought his 2009 tdf time trial looked surprising, ok it was a hilly course but still, now it looks suspicious.
no more comments from c'ntador.....how disappointing, was quite enjoying readin the increasingly ludicrous statments eminating from his camp.
A source close to.......... WTF does that mean? 🙄
Hmmm he's had plenty of time rehearse his response and think up an excuse, after all its not uncommon for cyclists to take drugs, why should Contador be any different.