MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Cor, not see Question Time for a while but the SNP person doesn’t seem keen to take responsibility for much. I’m sure a lot of what she says is true but the constant blaming of everyone else for everything negative is starting to grate!
When you have a fixed and reducing budget with very little room for maneuver and have spent all the contingency money you can raise on ameliorating the worst of the tory benefit cuts then its really very difficult. Want to put more money into the NHS - then cut elsewhere. Want to put more money into education - cut where?
Scots NHS for example cost 10% less in admin than in England. ie less than 10% of its budget compared to more than 20% in england
When your powers to raise money are limited then there are outside constrains upon what you can do
However after more than 10 years in power like most governments they become tired and stale. I really hope labour in scotland can get their act together and push the SNP hard down a better social justice agenda - but they cannot do this by merely shouting SNP baaaaaaaaaaaaad at everything. a better approach would be " this SNP policy is good as far as it goes but needs to go further"
I don't watch questiontime any more as its just shouty nonsense. However consider if you could put "Politicians" in the title and OP and still be just as valid?
It looks like it was Joanna Cherry QC (a Westminster SNP MP) who was on? I don't know what you were expecting her to take responsibility for - but its a bit like expecting Ruth Davidson or Ian Murray to agree with and support everything their Westminster colleagues do.
When your powers to raise money are limited
they do have the ability to charge more tax (they already do) and can allow council to increase council tax...
I believe the op is partly talking about the drug problem in Dundee.
SNP were reluctant to take responsibility. As was a Tory on there.
SNP have been asking for devolvement of drug policy for a number of years, the current “drugs are bad....n’kay?” policy of illegality has been an absolute failure for the previous 50 years and needs totally overhauled.
if the question was about drug policy then that is certainly not the SNP issue
The SNP are irritating, defo. Not as irritating as Boris and the tories though.
One word: education.
Under Scottish control since forever and an abject disaster under the SNP. Something they continue to deny although hopefully the coming review will force some fact facing.
Define abject disaster?
fixed and reducing budget
Eh? They have tax rate raising powers. As long as you think revenue always rise in proportion to tax rates (which many STWers do!) they can simply raise tax rates and increase their revenue dramatically.
Eh? They have tax rate raising powers. As long as you think revenue always rise in proportion to tax rates (which many STWers do!) they can simply raise tax rates and increase their revenue dramatically.
Ah but it's a poisoned chalice. The SNP are dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. Scotland already gets "slammed" as the highest taxed part of the UK. The yoons would be frothing if the SNP raised taxes further.
Also OOB the "tax raising" powers are very limited and designed intentionally to stop the SNP doing things they want to do.
We have had a small shift from lower paid workers paying less and higher paid paying more. What the SNP do not have the power to do is restructure the tax system properly only to tinker around the edges
On public sevices there is alternative analysis. Note the source of course but iit shows that scotlands public services have not been a disaster under the SNP
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18231000.sturgeon-really-tone-deaf-priorities-scotland/
The SNP are dammed if they do, dammed if they don’t.
Aye, I was listening to a fitter at work last week about how he pays more tax than his southern counterparts. He went rather quiet when asked how much he pays in tuition fees for his son to study at one of the most prestigious universities in the UK, compared to said southern colleagues, you could actually almost hear the wheels turning.
fixed and reducing budget
Eh? They have tax rate raising powers. As long as you think revenue always rise in proportion to tax rates (which many STWers do!) they can simply raise tax rates and increase their revenue dramatically.
The SNP are dammed if they do, dammed if they don’t. Scotland already gets “slammed” as the highest taxed part of the UK. The yoons would be frothing if the SNP raised taxes further.
Ahhh, fixed the the Scottish electorate, fair enough, I thought TJ meant fixed by Westminster.
I do. the block grant is fixed and reducing, the tax raising powers are limited and limiting. the scottish government has no borrowing powers. Using the tax raising powers to the maximum would not add a lot to the budget and the tax raising powers are designed to stop any significant redesign or rebalancing of the tax base
You only pay more tax in Scotland if you are above average UK earnings. If you are below average UK earnings you pay less tax
As I keep telling Yooner colleagues, the bets way to get rid of the SNP is independence.
The taxraising powers in Scotland are only limited if they don't impact you. My role is moving accross the border and I need a several thousand rise in gross pay to get the same take home as in England. That's not insignificant. Even if they could go further, if they pushed it it would get to the point where it would be a significant disincentive for companies to locate there or for people to relocate there.
It would be mad if you get an extra £300 in take home a month just by moving your role from Ediburgh to Newcastle.
You must be earning a huge amount for it to make that much difference! Its 5% extra over £150 000 pa and a small amount extra ( due to lower thresholds) in the 40% rate
Also OOB the “tax raising” powers are very limited and designed intentionally to stop the SNP doing things they want to do.
And yet there are things like council tax reform that they shy away from. Essentially though they, like all politicians, are too scared to "put tax up" they just don't put them down when Westminster does - thats not leadership.
One word: education.
Under Scottish control since forever and an abject disaster under the SNP. Something they continue to deny although hopefully the coming review will force some fact facing
Ah, ok - I must have missed the disaster. Certainly what I see in terms of a rounded education by people who understand what they learn and why is very different from 30 yrs ago. Is it a disaster, or are the outraged opposed to change? Of course it could be better but there isn't universal agreement on what we cut or tax to improve it...
Aye, I was listening to a fitter at work last week about how he pays more tax than his southern counterparts. He went rather quiet when asked how much he pays in tuition fees for his son to study at one of the most prestigious universities in the UK, compared to said southern colleagues, you could actually almost hear the wheels turning.
Interestingly I work with a lot of people who pay enough extra tax that they would genuinely notice the difference if we moved to the english levels. I've never heard a single one complain.
As I keep telling Yooner colleagues, the bets way to get rid of the SNP is independence.
Indeed if you want conservative type policies in Scotland the best thing you can do is vote independence, watch the SNP implode, the labour party be confused and lost, and the need for fiscal control grow and Ruth can make a come back!
the tax raising powers are limited and limiting
You can't complain about that unless they are all up at the maximum allowed.
Clearly Westminster isn't limiting Scotlands revenue, financial reality and Scottish Voters are.
It would be mad if you get an extra £300 in take home a month just by moving your role from Ediburgh to Newcastle.
Crap comparison, why not compare 2 cities with equivalent costs of living.
Even with the SRIT I would be significantly worse off if I relocated to a southern site.
Point missed OOB
The limitations are deliberatly intended to make it a poisoned chalice and cannot be used in the way I and many others would like. Not allowed to alter the personal allowance for example.
Crap comparison, why not compare 2 cities with equivalent costs of living
Why's it a crap comparison? It's got nothing to do with the cost of living.
£70k a year in Newcastle gets you £49k after tax
£70k a year in Ediburgh gets you £47k
So already you get £160 a month less if you were in Ediburgh. I'm suggesting if that opens up further it will start to become a bigger consideration for companies /individuals.
It would be mad if you get an extra £300 in take home a month just by moving your role from Ediburgh to Newcastle.
You'd need to be earning £180,000 a year before you get a £300 per month difference in your take home pay
In Edinburgh you can send your kids to Uni for free, in newcastle it will cost them £30 000. In Edinburgh yuu can get free prescriptions, In Newcastle they will cost you etc etc. In edinburgh you will wait less time in A&E
Tomd - a tiny % of the population earn that much.
Holy Christ. I know that - I'm saying
IF
it opens up further it will become a bigger factor for companies and individuals. It's a constraint the SNP have to work with given how easily people and capital can move around within the UK. Even if the SNP had more tax raiding power they will always be constrained by this fact.
Tomd – a tiny % of the population earn that much.
Indeed, so taxing them more raises little revenue. (Even if the don't simply move away from Scotland which they may well do.)
more tax raiding power
😂
Which is why the scottish government raised taxes a very small amount on everyone earning more than £33000 pa and only a bit more above £150 000 so they could raise a worthwhile amount without upsetting too many folk.
Most of us are more than happy to pay a bit extra for our better public services. I am.
I'm not convinced that a political party refusing to take responsibility and blaming everyone else is really just an SNP problem.
Tomd – a tiny % of the population earn that much.
Presumably the SNP want to attract the well paid jobs to Scotland, and taxing the shit out of them won't help that. In my own situation the company is taking up the slack when my role goes accross the border so it's just an extra cost on the business.
You must be earning a huge amount for it to make that much difference! Its 5% extra over £150 000 pa and a small amount extra ( due to lower thresholds) in the 40% rate
Don't forget NI. It,s 12% until £50'000. So between £43'431 and £50k Scots pay 53% tax and NI. Add pension contributions and take home pay is around a third of earnings from £43-£50k.
As far as tax alone goes - a Scots taxpayer on £50k will pay approx £1300 a year more tax on the income between £43'431 and £50k. You may think that a small amount, I don't.
^, don't see a problem, £50k /year is a helluva decent wage
Those numbers do not match anything published anywhere else. NI is the same and cannot be varied in Scotland. To pay £1500 a year more tax you actually need to be paid £100 000+
On £50 000 pa you pay £800 a year more tax in total
Read the numbers in the link I put in above
taxing the shit out of them
Scotland's top income tax rate = 46%
England's top income tax rate = 45%
Both for amounts over £150k
Let's compare that to other European countries
Austria - 50% for amounts over €90k
Finland - 65% for amounts over €127k
France - 41% for amounts over €71k
Italy - 43% for amounts over €75k
Netherlands - 51.75% for amounts over €68.5k
I'm assuming those countries have no high earners???
Which is why the scottish government raised taxes a very small amount on everyone earning more than £33000 pa and only a bit more above £150 000 so they could raise a worthwhile amount without upsetting too many folk.
Most of us are more than happy to pay a bit extra for our better public services. I am.
You were complaining there wasn't enough money to spend!
On £50 000 pa you pay £800 a year more tax in total
Not correct. Difference in take home pay on a 1250L tax code is £1500 on a £50K salary based on the HMRC calculator.
Why’s it a crap comparison? It’s got nothing to do with the cost of living.
Aye okay then.
So if I sell up my £100k mid terrace and transfer my role with same pay to Kent or Suffolk I'll be better off will I?
Of course I won't, that's why it's a crap comparison. You are comparing somewhere with a low cost of living (Newcastle) to somewhere with a higher cost of living. Scotland in general has a lower cost of living than England, certainly the areas where most jobs are, by a significant amount. That extra tax is nothing like enough to cancel that out and so shouldn't be viewed in isolation.
Something something cost of everything something something value of nothing.
I agree with TJ, useful comparison - English cities with a mayor (eg Greater Manchester) have the ability to add a discretionary item to the council tax to fund stuff to make their city better specific to them; but guess what, Westminster have already planned to reduce the council investment by the maximum amount raisable by that discretion so it doesn't actually help because it will need to be raised to go back for the basic services.
Westminster politicians are desparately trying to give an illusion of devolution whilst not actually letting go. It always comes down to money and that's the bit that the tories particularly will not budge on.
as a resident of Manchester I now fully support Scottish independence.
But yes, £1500 difference at 50k. £125 a month isn't exactly something to get worked up about at those wage levels.
So if I sell up my £100k mid terrace and transfer my role with same pay to Kent or Suffolk I’ll be better off will I?
Of course I won’t, that’s why it’s a crap comparison. You are comparing somewhere with a low cost of living (Newcastle) to somewhere with a higher cost of living. Scotland in general has a lower cost of living than England, certainly the areas where most jobs are, by a significant amount. That extra tax is nothing like enough to cancel that out and so shouldn’t be viewed in isolation.
Indeed, so tax could be reasied a great deal in Scotland without people moving roles elsewhere. Yet the SNP don't raise tax in any meaningful way at all, and blame Westminster for Scotland not having enough budget.
Aye okay then.
So if I sell up my £100k mid terrace and transfer my role with same pay to Kent or Suffolk I’ll be better off will I?
Of course I won’t, that’s why it’s a crap comparison. You are comparing somewhere with a low cost of living (Newcastle) to somewhere with a higher cost of living.
I really have no idea what your on about. The decent bits of Glasgow / Edinburgh / Dundee / Aberdeen / Perth are on the expensive side of the UK average housing costs wise. Newcastle is not a cheap place to live either. London, parts of SE & the home counties are a bit of an outlier.
Its not £1500 a year at 50 000 pa. its half that. check how its worked out. there is no way on earth its that much.
check the figures in the link I provided. It cannot be that much due to the very moderate increases
NO OOB - the tax cannot be raised a great deal unless its an increased burdon on the poor - because of the way the tax raising powers are limited. No power to alter allowances
tjagain
Member
Its not £1500 a year at 50 000 pa. its half that
its is TJ
Pop 50k in here and do the comparison between England And Scotland
50k in England = £37537 take home
50k in Scotland = £35993 take home
Have you tried to put £50k into the HMRC tax calculator?
I'm very interested in your alternate version of reality because it might save me a couple of thousand a year.
tjagian
Scots NHS for example cost 10% less in admin than in England. ie less than 10% of its budget compared to more than 20% in england
You sure about that figure?
The last report I read said that NHS Admin costs are running at 8% average. It's difficult to believe that would be possible if England, with 86% of the population was running at 20% admin as that would be, on its own over £24bn.
Also, you might expect that administration in England would be more expensive as there are more people, hospitals and facilities to manage.
Why does Scotland have so many hospitals?
NO OOB – the tax cannot be raised a great deal unless its an increased burdon on the poor – because of the way the tax raising powers are limited. No power to alter allowances
Not true. Scotland Act 2016 allows the Scottish Parliament to set rates *and bands*.
But not the personal allowance! That was my point. So the SNP cannot shift folk out of tax altogether so raising tax on those on moderate incomes means raising it on the poorest taxpayers as well
Daffy - its the money wasted on the fake internal market and the inefficiency this brings. 20% of the english NHS budget is spent on admin - some of it may be hidden in differnt budgets. the 8% figure is from long ago.
I suggest those of you who think you pay £1500 more tax on 50 000 pa actually look at the tax rates and work it out from first principles. Its simply impossible with the tax rates we have.
go on - look at the real numbers.
I suggest those of you who think you pay £1500 more tax on 50 000 pa actually look at the tax rates and work it out from first principles. Its simply impossible with the tax rates we have.
go on – look at the real numbers.
Whether it comes from the tax element, personal allowance, national insurance or whatever, the reality is someone earning 50k in Scotland has £1,500 less in their pocket than someone in England
In England the tax paid on earnings between 43,430 and 50,000 is 20% = £1314
In Scotland the tax paid on earnings between 43,430 and 50,000 is 41% = £2693
So the difference in tax between the two is £1379
This doesn't include any extra NI paid in Scotland
This doesn’t include any extra NI paid in Scotland
There isn't any. NI is not devolved
For 2019/2020 I believe the total difference is £1,544 pa and the additional amount recovered is roughly in line with the reduction in the Block Grant.
Here are the direct links to the calculations. The bands between England/ UK are completely different from those in Scotland
https://listentotaxman.com/50000?yr=2019®ion=scotland
https://listentotaxman.com/50000?yr=2019®ion=uk
Scotland Deductions
Total Tax = £9,042.36
NI = £4,964.16
Total deductions = £14,006.52
England Deductions
Total Tax = £7,498.20
NI = £4,964.16
Total deductions = £12,462.36
I forgot about the extra 1% on eranings between £24,944 to £43,430. That makes it up to £1500+ difference between Scotland and England.
I live in Scotland and I'm not objecting. Just calling out the TJ misinformation
I live in Scotland and I’m not objecting. Just calling out the TJ misinformation
Yip, same for me.
Happy to pay more for all the benefits we get (prescriptions, uni, childcare etc)
Of course, these figures don't include council tax, which hasn't been subject to the same rises as in England and Wales, so there is an offset there to consider.
The latest Scottish Tory leader also doesn't like taking responsibility for things apparently.
Ok
I forgot the huge rise in thresholds in England - I admit that which is what has made the difference - so that £1500 ( ish) is half tax rises in Scotland ( the numbers I had) and half tax cuts in england - the bit I forgot.
apologies!
tomd
Presumably the SNP want to attract the well paid jobs to Scotland, and taxing the shit out of them won’t help that
That's right, and why the answer is full fiscal control, ie independence.
No they don't like taking responsibility, much happier to continually blame Westminster for all the problems in Scotland. I wonder if in their much sought after utopian 'independent' nation,the one where they are somehow magically back in the EU regardless of facts like the ever increasing budget deficit exceeding 3% of GDP, forced to accept the Euro as the default currency etc, that theme would continue with constant beration of their new European masters. I think it would. So often wonder why they want independence when the reality seems like everything they shout about being oppressed in now would continue in other forms within the EU. I'm not sure they want independence at all, they seem a party who argue for the sake of argument, with no clear idea of how they'd actually go about enacting positive policy changes.
forced to accept the Euro as the default currency
Are you spouting that pish knowing it's bollocks or just repeating the bollocks you've been told in complete ignorance? The latter is slightly more forgivable.
What would be so bad about using the Euro? I often hear it used as a negative against an Indy Scotland joining the EU but just not sure why folk care, would save the hassle of changing currency when going abroad.
Yes we know that wouldn't have to use the Euro as shown by the 8 other countries in the EU who don't use the Euro.
What would be so bad about using the Euro?
Blah, blah, blah, taking back control, blah, blah, blah
Define abject disaster?
A decade+ of constant change and still no better than when it started.
An exam board that doesn't just examine but also sets the curriculum, that has made major changes to courses and exams almost every year sometimes after those courses have started.
Qualifications that are wholly unfit for purpose or the needs of pupils.
SQA produced assessment materials that contain serious factual inaccuracies.
Qualifications that are not valued by parents or pupils (N4)
Courses in S1-3 that do not correlate with S4-6 courses because they are produced by different bodies who essentially do not talk.
Inadequate detail on course content at all levels.
Virtually no course materials provided at national level - every school does their own thing and then gets criticised for inconsistencies.
An inspectorate that instead of upholding standards sets policy on an ad hoc basis.
Qualifications that are assessed through ridiculous tick box excercises.
Limited materials produced by SQA and then withdrawn leaving no official assessment materials.
Inconsistencies in what school produced materials the SQA approves.
Changes in the marking standard applied after courses have begun and sometimes after exams have been sat.
Record breaking levels of stress and absence among pupils and teachers.
Schools being urged to deliver units of work solely to improve their statistics rather than pupil outcomes.
Massive overemphasis on examinations.
Key assessment information buried deep in massive documents or not in the documents at all. It's not uncommon to find out key information by word of mouth.
Large parts of the above predicted and consistently raised by teachers and unions but not acted on.
I could go on and on TJ but you probably get the idea.
When it comes to education I don't know of any teachers who are happy with the SNP's handling of it. My wife was a primary teacher (now a tutor). she left because the job has changed so much over the years that it made her ill. Many others in a similar boat it really is a profession in crisis.
Despite that we both still voted SNP in the last election as there is no other option in our minds. Am I pro Indy? Well I am certainly moving that way with the way things are going.
Despite that we both still voted SNP
I've voted SNP in the past but their handling of education put me off doing so last time.
I'm another one happy to pay a wee bit more tax for the much improved services that we get here in Scotland. I don't earn a lot as a public servant (much less than £50k) but know, from the inside of the system, that we get a better value deal here by a fair margin. And anyone earning around £50k can readily afford an extra £125 a month to contribute to better services and a much better way of life.
Plus, I pay my taxes. All of them. No ifs, no buts, no trusts, no contrived insolvencies, no arrangements, no offshore tax havens nor managed service companies. Social responsibility is an alien concept to some people.
Are you spouting that pish knowing it’s bollocks or just repeating the bollocks you’ve been told in complete ignorance? The latter is slightly more forgivable.
No I don't believe I'm 'spouting pish' if my understanding of this colloquial term is correct. Countries which are currently applying for EU membership but are outside the criteria, again let's use deficlet's v GDP for example, have to compromise for entry. The EU negotiate the use of the Euro as compromise for entry where acceptance requirements are not met, with good economic reasoning for this in a country that has established that it cannot control it's debt. I'm not saying being in the Euro currency is a negative choice or even a term of acceptance that would be leveraged and accepted by the SNP, just that the SNP could perhaps not have full independent control in leaving the UK to join the EU, thus would continue their constant rhetoric of Scotland's woes being of other establishments control or lack of. These were my examples to support the OP in their observations of the SNP not liking to accept responsibility. I was not giving my views on an independent Scotland's political landscape, just giving possible scenarios as to where I support the OP in that the SNP do not like to shoulder responsibility.
A decade+ of constant change and still no better than when it started.
Better is a subjective term. Overall exam results fluctuate by small percentages. What were they like 10 years ago?
An exam board that doesn’t just examine but also sets the curriculum, that has made major changes to courses and exams almost every year sometimes after those courses have started.
Is the exam board the SNP? Why is setting the exam and the curriculum bad? Changes to courses and exams after the courses have started? Sounds like a pretty good preparation for the real world.
Qualifications that are wholly unfit for purpose or the needs of pupils.
How so? Has something changed from my day when, for example a University said you need 4 B grades at higher? Are the qualifications out of line with the demands of higher education?
SQA produced assessment materials that contain serious factual inaccuracies.
Are the SQA and the SNP the same organisation?
Qualifications that are not valued by parents or pupils (N4)
Why not?
Courses in S1-3 that do not correlate with S4-6 courses because they are produced by different bodies who essentially do not talk.
Have the SNP told the 2 bodies not to talk? Do they never speak?
Inadequate detail on course content at all levels.
At the direction of the SNP?
Virtually no course materials provided at national level – every school does their own thing and then gets criticised for inconsistencies.
When I was doing my highers back in the 1990s, our course material was photocopies from Carluke Highschool. The reason given was they were one of the first schools to implement Highers in Scotland. How come I managed to get 8 highers back in the 90s with no national level materials?
An inspectorate that instead of upholding standards sets policy on an ad hoc basis.
What does that even mean?
Qualifications that are assessed through ridiculous tick box excercises.
Welcome to the real world. Not an SNP specific problem
Changes in the marking standard applied after courses have begun and sometimes after exams have been sat.
Has been going on since my time at school and probably long before that. For example moving the pass marks for grades to ensure a certain amount of each grade is achieved
Record breaking levels of stress and absence among pupils and teachers.
Always been like that and again, welcome to the real world.
Schools being urged to deliver units of work solely to improve their statistics rather than pupil outcomes.
Massive overemphasis on examinations.
as opposed to uni or employers accepting pupils based on being the best fighter in the year, or top shagger?
Key assessment information buried deep in massive documents or not in the documents at all. It’s not uncommon to find out key information by word of mouth.
A few points ago you were moaning about insufficient documentation. Now there's too much info?
I think you just have to agree you will adopt the Euro in due course but set out the conditions you want to get to to adopt the currency. That may take quite a few years. So no impact in the short term.
I’m still not sure why they voted leave down south. What are these bad things our European masters have done to us? Is this just an abstract concept in your mind Lotto?
What are these bad things our European masters have done to us? Is this just an abstract concept in your mind
I never said European masters have done anything to 'us' ? I'm saying the SNP could possibly exchange what they espouse as control by a third party for possibly the same situation within the EU, thus the SNP would continue the rhetoric of Scotland being behest of others and continuing to fail to accept responsibility in support of the OP observations. My personal view is that whatever form an independent Scotland was to achieve then the SNP would be very unlikely to stay in power. In the long term at least, as other political parties and polices may become more attractive under different leadership and direction.
Education is a mixed bag of some OK and some not OK - and those responsible are a mix of local authorities, quangos and the scottish government. the link I put up before from the national shows the good side. I know some teachers in both england and scotland and no doubt the scots ones have a better job in many ways - but yes its far from perfect but hardly a disaster either.
Its one area where the SNPs centralizing and controlling instincts have not worked as well as they might - but they only set policy in broad. Local authoritys actually control the schools.
And anyone earning around £50k can readily afford an extra £125 a month
How do you know what someone can and can't afford? 50k is alot if you are a single person with no dependencies. 50k isn't all that much if you are the sole earner in a family of 4 with a decent sized morgage to pay. I'm not saying you'd be on the poverty line, but I'm sure in that situation you'd miss 125 quid in you pocket every month.
If you can't run a family & home on £50k you're doing something far wrong.
That's a lot of money and leaves plenty of wriggle room for modest luxuries.