Perhaps - ends and means and all that.
In the meantime, what do you reckon for tomorrow? Important first step, so you can see whether the SNP are what they say they are. We shall see...
You're the self appointed fact geek Thm why don't you tell us how many "extra months" Derek Mackay has taken for his budget?
Sep...Oct....Nov....Dec....errr (although we know that we are talking about drafts etc as he wanted more thinking time)
still no problem with delay, much better to get this one right - first impressions and all that!
so what do you reckon on tomorrow?
I am sure THM will tell us everything thats wrong with the budget despite his proven ignorance of Scottish politics, of the actual powers of Holyrood and measure this against his liking for taking right wing economic theory as fact. He will then leaven this with some condescension.
fortunately I won't see it unless someone quotes him
fortunately I won't see it unless someone quotes him
Really, you haven't mentioned that before?
For when someone quotes - we are talking about a left of centre government raising already low tax rates on top earners to fund better services, since antiquated issues such as Laffer Curve effect dont exist. No excuses for simply copying the RW Tories is there?
If this thread is anything to go by, the SNP will be relieved that expectations are non-existent, so they will probably get away with matching the Tories except for thresholds. It must be lovely to have such a pliant electorate!!
nothing worth quoting TJ but you nailed his MO still some folk just cannot change - i include you and me in that FWIW as some of us can do self awareness
I seem to recall that Jesus fella has some strong views on the wealthy
and I seem to recall he had a message about what to do with your enemies and turning the other cheek
he is an example to us all especially the christians amongst us
So still no answers, shame. It would have been interesting to hear some "informed" local knowledge. Never mind...
yes it would and i am sure you would have embraced them and taken them on rather than just smarm and patronise them to within an inch of their lives
STrange how no one takes you on anymore ..probably your towering intellect rather than your tone 😉
although we know that we are talking about drafts etc as he wanted more thinking time
Perhaps he was waiting till the oil price went back to $110 so he could make the numbers balance ?
I dont think so, but here is his chance to differentiate the SNP from the nasty Tories - I hope he takes it, but doubt it!
Any budget of course needs more than a whipped party to get it thru so some searching for consensus will be needed. got to keep the greens onside and hopefully the greens have learn't from the last minority SNP administration where they ended up sidelining themselves and the tories actually engaged with the SNP and ended up with some input into policy. Such are the politics of PR and minority governments
Labour of course are still incapable of engaging constructively with anyone at Holyrood as they still feel the SNP stole their ball so won't play with anyone.
The Scottish Greens have set out plans to introduce a new 60p rate of income tax for Scotland's highest earners.
Meet them half way or side with the Tories and leave it unchanged?
Greens unimpressed today
And Patrick Harvie from the Scottish Greens put forward an amendment saying "the SNP's manifesto proposals on tax make no significant changes to current income tax rates and thresholds", saying Holyrood should "support a tax system that will challenge inequalities in wealth and income".
looks like a stalemate brewing
Easy to differentiate the SNP from the Scottish Conservative Unionist Party Thm. I think it would have been foolish of MacKay to bring forward budget proposals before studying Hammond's autumn statement.
On an earlier point did you manage to find out how many bankers were jailed yet?
On tax? We shall see...
True - so he took his time sensibly. No need to rush such important decisions
No - have you? Let me know if you have the answer. Cheers
gordimhor
they are both run by women with shortish unpermed hair, not a handbag in sight and have "scottish" in their name. Easy to confuse
The Scottish Greens have set out plans to introduce a new 60p rate of income tax for Scotland's highest earners.
The SNP said a 50p rate would cost them £30m in lost revenue, 60p would probably push that up some more as more of the waverers/marginals would go
The SNP said a 50p rate would cost them £30m in lost revenue,
How come, that's not on script? They dont believe in the Laffer Curve surely? A true LW party that is anti-austerity is surely not going to bottle raising what is currently a low MR level of tax on the filthy rich!!
TJ's weak attempt at sarcasm above ironically highlights an important point. You could imagine Ruth Davison and/or George Osbourne signing this
Oh, and it does use my preferred term for the Laffer curve idea - Taxable Income Elasticity.
So our radical LWers are really not that different from the nasty Tories after all!! Unless Mackay proves us wrong tomorrow.
We shall see.....
And the outcome if no-one supports the government's budget proposals?tjagain - Member
Any budget of course needs more than a whipped party to get it thru so some searching for consensus will be needed.
We could see tomorrow scotroutes....
...an intriguing stalemate??
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38304774
Others can provide the WoS link
Anything wrong with the Scottish budget is proof we need full fiscal autonomy,
Without that the juggling act of whatever flavour of Scottish govt we have is dependent on what the English controlled Westminster govt lets us have.
So, Epi, somebody else's fault. The nationalist Scot is the picked upon Scot. Get that chip off your shoulder.
Dunno really scotroutes. They keep trying until they get a vote thru? the SNP are far to good political operators to present a budget unless they know its going to go thru. They managed it in the previous minority administration. compromise and consensus?
Statement of fact from epicyclo Gowrie. the "tax raising powers" are designed to be virtually useless and a trap for the nationalists.
A couple of attempts then call for a Vote of Confidence and trigger an election?tjagain - Member
Dunno really scotroutes. They keep trying until they get a vote thru?
a trap for the nationalists.
Yup put them in charge of something and then watch them do nothing except complain 8)
The SNP are well aware they can't put taxes up or the jobs will just move South of the border.
TMH's link shows Scotlands greater income equality, ie they have less high earners. We could improve income equality by asking all the rich people to move abroad taking their jobs with them.
David Davies was before the Select Committee today. What's clear is that Northern Ireland and Gibralter will be getting speical arrangements (Davies said the EU had raised the Irish issue and thought it very important to protect the peace process). As such it's perfectly natural for Scotland to ask "what about us, what can we get" ?
scotroutes - thats the other option I guess. Can you remember how they did it in the first minority government? IIRC a fair amount of horse trading behind the scenes that labour and the lib dems wouldn't join in with " the Bain principle" AKA labours death song
Jamba - the scottish government do not have the powers to make a fairer tax system. Its a very limited and restrictive changes they can make that will not raise much money - not for the reason you think but because of the cost of administering it. But then that wouldn't fit your narrative would it.
Gowrie - Member
So, Epi, somebody else's fault...
Yes. It's the fault of anyone standing in the way of Scotland having full control over its finances, ie the 3 different colours of Tory, Red, Yellow, and Blue with the help of the Proud Scot Butts.
IMO any direct tax scheme that takes +50% of gross earnings is immoral.
We keep been told to take responsibility for ourselves (only this week we've been told we should save up for Care), but how can we do this when we're left with less than half of what we've earned?
I live in Scotland.
IMO any country that lets it citizens be cold and hungry when there is plenty of money in the economy. A country that keeps its pensioners in poverty is immoral. a country that cannot provide for the poor the sick and the needy is immoral.
The list is long (of excuses) but it is mighty.
But let me get this straight, since I am merely an Englishman with a total ignorance of Scottish affairs. Nicola is resisting increasing the top rate of tax on high earners not because she believes - as many RWers/people who do the analysis do - that it will reduce the level of revenue earned (the Tory argument and the one put forward in print by the Scottish Government, see link above) but because it would be too expensive to administer? Why on earth did she not say so, it would have saved all the debates and compromise.
IMO any country that lets it citizens be cold and hungry when there is plenty of money in the economy.
Two solutions from the Left end of the spectrum
1. raise income taxes on high earners, especially if they are below average anyway. Plenty of evidence of how this works and lots of appetite, "I would happily pay more tax for better services" etc
2. Tax owners of more than one property v heavily since they distort the housing market. How moral is it for anyone to have more than one property when people are forced to live on the streets nearby?
Odds on either being introduced by a left-of-centre, anti-austerity government?
[i]IMO any country that lets it citizens be cold and hungry when there is plenty of money in the economy. A country that keeps its pensioners in poverty is immoral. a country that cannot provide for the poor the sick and the needy is immoral. [/I]
How we spend isn't really connected to how we tax, with the exception of only that how much we tax rules how much we can spend.
The two are separate issues and should be treated separately.
Anyway we can't be poor:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/08/parliament-champagne-soars-_n_5104787.html
BR - its no coincidence that most european countries tax higher than we do and have better provision for the poor, the old, the disabled and the needy
Raise income tax then - its a left-of-centre government after all.
b r - Member
IMO any direct tax scheme that takes +50% of gross earnings is immoral.
I agree. A flat rate is fairest on earnings from toil.
The answer is to remove the loopholes that allow the big corporations and the wealthy to avoid tax.
It'll never happen with the current Westminster govt because the [s]bribes[/s] political donations, consultancies and fact-finding missions paid for by the big corporates has too many politicians in their pockets.
Scotland could do that if it had full fiscal autonomy.
No rabbit from a hat - as promised largely in the manifesto. At least, an emphasis on education there.
So even the left of centre prefer lower taxes than Europe for the higher paid and low corporation taxes. No wonder the Tories don't get a look in - others already implement their ideas!!
I agree. A flat rate is fairest on earnings from toil.
It would certainly be an interesting experiment, especially given how expensive tax collection is and how complex they make it.
A nice "progressive" flat rate system has a lot going for it.
I'll just leave this here. Rather a nice speech from a slick political operator. He knows how to push the buttons. Can you imagine anyone else in the UK political scene making this speech?
[quote="wee Eck"]
THERE have been two fundamental shocks, turn-ups or surprises in European history in the last 1,000 years. The first was Leicester City winning the English Premier League last season. And the second was in 1297 when a rag-tag and bobtail army of Scottish peasants laid low the might of Plantagenet chivalry at Stirling Bridge.
This, it should be said, was not absolutely unique. The Flemish peasants did much the same to the French a handful of years later at Courtrai. However there is no doubt that Stirling Bridge was a turn-up for the books and the reverberations from it whistled around mediaeval Europe.
Rather like Leicester City, William Wallace came down to earth with a bump the following season at Falkirk. However, in the meantime how did he and his co-Guardian of Scotland, Andrew De Moray, celebrate their historic victory? I can see you are thinking a giant ceilidh is coming on. Well, no – they actually wrote a letter to Lübeck, the headquarters of the Hansiatic League and here I paraphrase from the Latin: “There has been a change, we are back in charge. Could we have our trading concessions back and, listen, be nice to our two merchants who are carrying this letter.”
The Hansiatic League was the mediaeval equivalent of the single marketplace and the Lubeck letter is the equivalent of the Scottish First Minister saying to today’s European Commission: “Look, we don’t like the idea of full English Brexit, we didn’t vote for it and we are not having it. We hope to be in charge soon.”
Wind the European time clock forward some 450 years, and we find a Scots gentleman, bored out of his mind tutoring a Scots nobleman, writing from Toulouse in France to his friend saying that he was starting to write a new book. The bored Scot was Adam Smith, the friend was David Hume and the book was the Wealth of Nations.
The point is that in the 18th century Scotland was at the centre of the development of European thought and the age of rationality represented by the Scottish Enlightenment ushered in both the French and American revolutions.
Wind that clock forward another century and a half. We find Scotland, 100 years ago, at the centre of European conflict. Our losses as a percentage of the population from the carnage of the Great War are only matched by those of Germany and France.
There are villages in the North East and the Highlands of Scotland where of young men of fighting age no less than half were killed or seriously injured.
And therefore more than most, we have huge interest in the peace to which Europe has contributed over the last 65 years.
The purpose of these three separate stories is to emphasis that Scotland has for a millennium been a European country. In trade, in cultural and scientific advance and development. In peace and in war Scotland has been at the heart of Europe.
Therefore to be told now that against the wishes of the Scottish people that these connections are to be severed, that we are to be reduced to the role of at best a bystander, is not just democratically unacceptable – it flies in the face of our history.
It should not just be unacceptable to Scotland – it should be unacceptable to Europe.
There are many negative things about the Brexit process. It will be intensely damaging to the United Kingdom. Brexit offers nothing but salt and vinegar, as President Tusk memorably put it.
However one of the worst aspects is how the time and effort of Europe will be preoccupied in dismantling part of the European project. What a waste when Europe’s eye should be on the challenges of the present and the future. Europe should be galvanising to repair the weaknesses in the project – a project which Robert Schuman pointed out 66 years ago will not be made all at once or in a single plan.
However, there is an aspect of Scotland’s story which should bring hope to the rest of the continent. We hear a great deal about how the established order is under siege from the forces of right-wing populism. How liberal values, progressive politics and respect for the judiciary are on the retreat across Europe, and indeed the planet.
However, in Scotland it is progressive pro-European forces who are in the ascendency. The protest against the establishment is expressed in liberal values, and the European Union for all its faults is regarded as a positive thing.
As President Juncker said himself, Scotland has earned the right to be heard. And, as he mentioned to me today, to be listened to in Brussels.
Scotland is not unique in this. In a number of countries forces of change have also emerged from the autonomist left. And yet how have European institutions responded? The answer is not well. When the reactionary vandals are at the gates of the Treaty of Rome then help from all progressive Europeans should be treasured and valued.
We need a Europe where dissent is channelled into fresh hope. We need to lift again the tattered flag of a social Europe. We need to fuel once again the idealist vision that propelled Maurits Coppieters himself – where self-determination of peoples, linguistic and cultural diversity, peace and democracy, could all find a home in a united Europe.
In the coming weeks, the Government of Scotland will be publishing a paper on Scotland’s way forward. How we can maintain our European connections, how the UK could accommodate this without countermanding to the Brexit process across England.
What we need now from the rest of this continent is not just goodwill and encouragement. We need vocal support and the realisation that we have to turn the tide away from all that Brexit represents if we are to build a European home with room for all its nationalities.
Or as Hamish Henderson once put it, in his great anthem, Freedom Come All Ye:
So come all ye at hame wi Freedom
Never heed whit the hoodies croak for doom
In your hoose a’ the bairns o Adam
Can find breid, barely-bree and painted room.
Bojo obviously
tjagain - Member
I'll just leave this here. Rather a nice speech from a slick political operator. He knows how to push the buttons. Can you imagine anyone else in the UK political scene making this speech?
As President Juncker said himself, Scotland has earned the right to be heard. And, as he mentioned to me today, to be listened to in Brussels.
With that statement Jucker becomes the dirt stirrer.
Yep, in other part of the world such statement become the root cause of civil war when the naive ones literary take on board such a poisonous statement.
Live now
If she focused more on making Scotland a better place to live then attracting migrants would be somewhat easier. As it is a lack of decent jobs and housing stock hardly make Scotland an attractive proposition.
