Dragon - do you live in Scotland?
Right now the home office is trying to deport two american families who have settled here, built businesses here and added to the community
Plenty of good houses at non stupid prices. JObs are available if in short supply.
This thread has given me loads of laughs. People whos blind hatred for the SNP and reliance on english press for their information insisting black is white and arguing from a mix of ignorance, cant and condescension
Full proposal here
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/12/9234/0
You might not like them/her but at least they're doing something pro-active and talking openly about their plans, unlike the headless chickens in Westminster.
Well said BOb - and of course in answer to Dragon it is absolutely critical to the wellbeing of the people of scotland and of our economy that we remain in the single market.
So it is trying to make Scotland a better place to live and work and also the single most important issue facing scotland right now
While I don't disagree with NS trying to set out Scotland's case there is no way Westminster will cut Scotland a special deal.
It would be political suicide.
No deal means 2nd referendum becomes inevitable
Dragon - are you English and do you even live in Scotland?...Plenty of good houses at non stupid prices.
You can even have more than one and make it more expensive for those trying to get on the ladder!
This thread has given me loads of laughs. People whos blind hatred for the English and reliance on WoS for their information insisting black is white and arguing from a mix of ignorance, cant and condescension
Me too!
But on a serious point, this is quite remarkable. Having read the introduction (thx for the link bob) it is largely factual. 😯
Of course it avoids the ridiculous situation of being a separate member of the EZ but as an aspirational piece (missing out the practical stuff) not a bad effort. 7/10
2nd refrendum will only happen if the poll point to a win. Sturgeon also has to address the SNP voters who want out of the EU.
Sturgeon is a cautious politician by nature unlike Salmond who is a gambler
Bob, its easy to talk. Much harder to actually do things - rhetoric is cheap, reality quite different
eg, easy to argue that being in the EU (under Dave's terms) was better than we will end up with, but so what? thats gone. We have to find the best solution from a bad situation. No point pretending that the unachievable is achievable unless you have time to write a full 670 pages...
Plenty of good houses at non stupid prices. JObs are available if in short supply.
Neither of which seem to be attracting people to Scotland. I have never seen anybody from the SNP address what they think actually needs done. It's easy to say "we need control of X, Y and Z to fix this" but there have never been any suggestions as to policy decisions that might be made. Which makes it all an easy, but empty, argument.
I find their Brexit paper to be rather unsurprising and uninspiring (reading just the summary details), but at least they have published some discussion on the matter. The paper is rather undermined by a number of their panel criticising some of the key options. So we know all the favoured options aren't practical, which makes it seem like a bit of a vanity exercise to ensure that the SNP can claim that Westminster is ignoring Scotland.
The whole issue around Northern Ireland (and why Scotland is in a different position) has been completely missed in trying to score points against the UK government.
I don't see why the UK govt can't present openly something similar. An analysis of the options facing the UK, even if their eventual decision making and strategy is kept quiet.
Sturgeon also has to address the SNP voters who want out of the EU.
What, both of them?
I don't see why the UK govt can't present openly something similar. An analysis of the options facing the UK, even if their eventual decision making and strategy is kept quiet.
Any open discussion is going to be difficult for the Tories as it's likely to undermine public support for Brexit and the pro-Brexit side of the party won't want that.
Neither of which seem to be attracting people to Scotland.
Quick scan of the office floor around me
A Polish girl and and Italian girl working for me
3 Dutch guys
2 French guys
2 American girls
1 Lebanese guy
1 Latvian guy
1 Chinese guy
1 Spanish guy
No doubt countless others who I don't work directly with and don't know they're foreign.
But yes, absolute no one is attracted to Scotland.
epicsteve - around 30% of those who voted SNP in the last holyrood election voted out in the EU election
The whole issue around Northern Ireland (and why Scotland is in a different position) has been completely missed in trying to score points against the UK government.
Scotland would be in a better position if the Scottish Resistance threatened to blow some things up?
epicsteve - around 30% of those who voted SNP in the last holyrood election voted out in the EU election
Doesn't matter how they voted for Holyrood though does it? What matters is how they voted on independence.
The problem in Scotland is that the SNP are the only remotely competent party so when voting for Holyrood or Westminster they do get a fair amount of people voting for them that don't necessarily agree on Independence or even Brexit.
I know a couple of people who voted for independence, then voted to leave the EU. For both of them, independence trumps everything - an independent Scotland in the EU is much preferable.
[quote="grumpysculler"]
I have never seen anybody from the SNP address what they think actually needs done.
Not looking in the right places then Not having any control over immigration makes it rather hard - but we attract plenty of Students and other folk - which is then completely undermined by westminster. Take the post office / shop in Laggan. Had been closed for a few years. bought by a( IIRC) canadian couple who built it up to a viable business and one well welcome there. Now being deported because of some stupid arcane rule change that occurred whilst they were here.
Or the American couple who bought a derelict building in inverness. turned it into a profitable hotel. Deportation letter landed on their doorstep this week. they followed all the advice they were given regarding immigration rules by the home office. Turns out this advice is wrong so they are going to be deported. Again Westminster not Holyrood.
In both these cases Holyrood is fighting on their behalf. the home office is refusing to play. Two businesses built from scratch over 5 years creting employment going to be destroyed.
Or my friend the US / Dutch woman now farming in the highlands - helping bringing back a derelict farm into use. Or my Danish Friend running a dressmaking business employing 4 scots.
epic steve - thats the other conundrum. around 20% of the SNP vote voted No in the independence referendum.
I don't understand either of these two positions but its a fact they both happened
Scotland would be in a better position if the Scottish Resistance threatened to blow some things up?
Yes, lets trivialise sectarian violence and also ignore the differences between the various freedoms that apply differently to different areas of the (current) EU.
Great advert for the SNP approach there...
Nicola says that the border between NI & Ireland can be treated the same as the border between Scotland and England. I suggest that it is rather different both in politics and in application of the acquis as they apply to the CTA both before and after Brexit.
Dragon - are you English and do you even live in Scotland?
For what its worth, No and Yes.
absolute no one is attracted to Scotland.
Said no one ever, but the reality is that the SNP claim they need greater immigration to grow the economy. I'm not totally convinced myself as it tends to hold down wages for the lower paid, but the SNP seem to be buying into the liberal consensus that all immigration is good.
For what its worth, No and Yes.
It was a joke, dragon 😉
it tends to hold down wages for the lower paid, but the SNP seem to be buying into the liberal consensus that all immigration is good.
as i assume this is ...
Theresa is giving evidence to the Brexit Committee
Hasn't read today's paper but welcomes contributions to the debate from all the devolved Parliaments
No grounds for a second Referendum, Scotland voted in 2014 and gave a clear decision
On the EU, should Scotland leave the UK it would no longer be part of either the EU or UK single markets and the UK single market is worth 4x to Scotland than is the EU
[quote=jambalaya ]Theresa is giving evidence to the Brexit Committee
Hasn't read today's paper but welcomes contributions to the debate from all the devolved Parliaments
No grounds for a second Referendum, Scotland voted in 2014 and gave a clear decision
On the EU, should Scotland leave the UK it would no longer be part of either the EU or UK single markets and the UK single market is worth 4x to Scotland than is the EU
Sorry, but from a woman whose biggest contribution so far has been a promise to deliver a "red, white and blue brexit deal" I treat anything she says with the absolute disdain it deserves.
That's fair enough Bob. She is however the Prime Minister.
[quote=jambalaya ]That's fair enough Bob. She is however the Prime Minister.
True, and unfortunate
With all this use of the word "inevitable" you'd think there was some certainty about a new independence vote? But there really isn't.
The polls say that the people in Scotland don't want one, and that if it happened the SNP would probably lose.
Salmond is talking it up, because
a) he likes the limelight and
b) a failed attempt would get rid of Sturgeon and might possibly bring him back as leader (again).
The fact that the SNP couldn't win independence in the face of;
-conservative government,
-economic turmoil,
-widely believed (although later proved wildy inaccurate) oil based economic powerhouse stories,
Should perhaps be an indicator that maybe the actual inhabitants of Scotland don't want it?
Even the addition of Brexit and an even _more_ conservative government hasn't moved the polls.
So why are we still talking about it?
Imagine if the energy put into this question could be harnessed into paying attention to what the SNP government is actually doing.
-Overseeing a massive decline in educational attainment (while withdrawing from international comparisons of educational attainment).
-Reducing the money available to help poorer students because Salmond wrote stuff on a rock.
-Money for health care appearing in two places in the scottish budget to make the SNP look good.
-Inept (or deliberate?) figures in the budget suggesting that money from Westminster is falling this year due to austerity when it is actually rising?
-Talking up the importance of 15% of exports to Europe and ignoring the 60% to the rest of the UK.
Even the document today has a caveat that says Sturgeon consulted her group of special brexit advisers (remember them) but nothing on whether they support what shes saying, and at least one has publicly said its all mince.
I live and work in Scotland, and as a leftie liberal theres not much choice when it comes to voting. Labour has imploded and gone alt-left, the Conservatives are Conservative, Lib Dems are reduced but coming back a little and then theres the SNP who talk left wing but do nothing to justify it.
Independence is a reasonable political position, and politicians will politik but the degree of doublethink, deceit and the "at any cost" attitude is really becoming too much.
Ohh that was long .. sorry.. 🙂
and she actually is delivering on the mandate delivered by the people (or those who voted)
edit
The polls say that the people in Scotland don't want one
since when has that mattered?
then theres the SNP who talk left wing but do nothing to justify it.
Didnt they just raise income on the filthy rich and corporation tax to fund better services?
@thm Nichola said it mattered (when she hope brexit would happen and bring it about), but now it's not so important, wonder why?
Was that through the introduction of the 50p rate like they said over and over? Oh, no then.
It only matters if the result goes one way!
Left wingers dont like raising taxes to pay for services, clearly!! Or the cop-out version, its too expensive to do, which considering the indi upheaval is a bit far fetched!
There are various ways in which Scotland's place in the European Single Market could be maintained. One option - in my view, the best option - is to become a full member of the EU as an independent country.
With all that this implies ie, giving up sovereignty over fiscal, monetary and political issues - an interesting take on the notion of "independence"!! You could make this up....
Why do people who know so little about a topic pontificate so much?
Does THM shout in empty rooms?
We don't know - please do tell us....
Good on NS for doing something about Brexit.
She does a lot more than the UK government.
At least she knows what she wants.
Really is she doing anything apart from a few speeches to her own folk? She pontificates with no power and only has to worry about the economy of central belt. UK government actually has to do the hard negotiations and have to take into account nearly ~60 million folk. All the while still doing the day to day of running a country in the UN, NATO, G20 etc.
jambalaya - Member
No grounds for a second Referendum
Perhaps, but the precedent is set, referendums are no longer required to be legally binding, for them to be erm, legally binding...
tjagain - Member
Does THM shout in empty rooms?
Why don't you just speak to him, instead of kidding on you don't read his posts?
😆dragon - Member
Really is she doing anything apart from a few speeches to her own folk? She pontificates with no power and only has to worry about the economy of central belt. UK government actually has to do the hard negotiations and have to take into account nearly ~60 million folk. All the while still doing the day to day of running a country in the UN, NATO, G20 etc.
Oh the burdens of power! Poor little UK, those nasty nats should just leave alone eh? 😆
Perhaps, but the precedent is set, referendums are no longer required to be legally binding, for them to be erm, legally binding...
Sort of correct (as UK Government is drafting and Parliament will be creating the laws which will take us out of the EU, Repeal Bill etc) but I put the odds very very low on the UK Parliament actioning a non-bining Scottish Indy Ref 2.
Seems difficult to me for them not to act on it, considering they(almost every MP) have set them selves up with this Brexit thing as proponents of direct democracy.
Who knows how it'll all work out, but you'd have to think the SNP have some sort of plan, with the way they are going about things, ie setting themselves up for direct constitutional confrontation with Westminster.
If they don't they'll end up with egg on their face.
Joe 😀
Trivial to ignore seosam, it's not a National Referendum, just a small subset of the country.
I'm taking about Brexit.
The UK government position is far from convincing.
NS has at least published a plan for her country and people.
seosamh77
I have him blocked. All I see is
THM said something stupid.
Why don't I engage with him? History. He deliberately goaded me on here and succeeded in his aim of making me lose my temper so the mods rightly banned me. His nasty sneering condescension irritates me no end. Its easier on all concerned - me and the mods to simply block him.
It also gives me a good laugh that he posts within seconds of virtually every post I make on here.
dunno about that I wouldn't like to preempt the laws opinion on that. 79,97,14. Quite a substantial amount of evidence pointing to tge fact that Scotland is a unique situation. And historically decides it's own fate.jambalaya - Member
Trivial to ignore seosam, it's not a National Referendum, just a small subset of the country
Jamba - westminster does not have to agree to any sort of referendum in Scottish independence. If they refuse all it does is make it harder to hold one ( but not impossible) and give the SNP an open goal
I wouldn't be too sure about a 'no' vote next time, and I wouldn't trust polls too much based on what we've seen this year, here and overseas. How many of them turned out to get the results right?
FWIW, a straw poll of my extended family, which consists of: wife, FiL, MiL, SiL- all well-educated, all enjoyed or are enjoying a good income or pension, and all were ardently 'no' in the last ref.
All of them would now vote yes if the ref was re-run, and I'll quickly summarise why:
-Westminster is now frankly admitting that this is going to cost us actual money in the form of tariff access, and we'll see more of this truth begin to emerge over the next few months. Costing Scotland money was what Project Fear used to best effect.
Hence, what have we got to lose now? Its costing us anyway, and we're going to lose out in other 'social chapter' ways.
So, why not just take our chances and push for EU membership as an independent nation and see where we get? If its WTO rules- its not going to cost us any more, is it? Thats looking like where Brexit is going to deposit us anyway.
