So 10% rise minimum.
I hadn't seen that chart, but yes the bare minimum should be an immediate 10% rise for all public sector workers followed by further rises over a parliament which bring them up to the level of their private sector peers. I'd actually argue they should get paid more, as they provide more value to society but I'd settle for them being the same.
10% this year? The bounce back on that, by a public seeing their own income at risk, and wages on hold, would be huge. Sadly. Of course the staff deserve it. And arguably it's required to avoid a worsening staffing crisis, but Labour have to take the public/voters with them.
Anyway, all this chatter is exactly why Labour are avoiding a number for this year. Anything they say will shift the focus on to their figure being too low/high... rather than keeping all eyes on the "the 1% this government is imposing is an insult".
'In one year? Would sir like his moon on a stick gold plated?'
'Yes, thank you kindly,' said the sales rep from Serco,'but spread it over two years.'
The bounce back on that
And that's exactly what labour should be addressing directly. There's an assumption that public sector workers are less valuable than those in the private sector when the opposite is true. It's true in normal times but the pandemic has massively reinforced the case so it should be a very easy message for labour to get across. It needs to go beyond the virtue signalling of calling people heroes though and actually have some substance behind it, and that needs more than a single figure percentage pay rise.
Does anyone actually believe Starmer will do this though? Of course he won't. All we'll get is more clapping, more talk about heroes, and then the usual 'we can't afford anything more than 3%' bollox. This stuff is the bare minimum labour should be proposing but they can't even do that.
Getting the government to back track on 1% this year, back to 3.5% (or better still 5%), and then come the election having a programme to increase wages, retainment, and training if the Labour party is elected... that's what I'd like to see.
But again, avoiding this "Labour wants less than the Unions" type narrative is why there is currently no headline figure for this year from the Labour front bench. Keep the focus on the government and their "1%" figure. Don't give the media a chance to make this into another "the Labour movement divided" story with a low figure, or a "the Labour movement against the people" story with a higher figure. People should only be talking about one figure right now... "1%".
rather than keeping all eyes on the “the 1% this government is imposing is an insult“.
Why is it an insult?
What wouldnt be an insult?
Journalists are obviously going to ask the question what would be fair and they are going to look pretty poor (as indeed Starmer did) when refusing to answer the question.
If he wants to show himself as trustworthy then he needs to answer questions rather than just wrapping himself in the union jack and act as a johnson mk2.
Yes it's not hard to answer the question. It's been answered on this page pretty much.
Rachel Reeves in the NS writes for 3 pages on the post-war settlement and concludes what we need is 'decent pay', 'common decency', 'togetherness and inclusiveness'.
She makes the much repeated claim that we live in the world we live in. Fighting talk.
Not sure it's on topic but I note that Joe Biden appears to have gone full MMT with his astonishing $1.9 trillion splurge in response to covid. If ever labour had a gold plated opportunity to change the debate on public finances now is it. Will they accept the gift horse that's been handed to them? Will they f***!
If they were in government they would have that opportunity. Instead all the tools to set the agenda are in the hands of another party.
Instead all the tools to set the agenda are in the hands of another party.
And that in a nutshell is where they are going wrong. It's the job of the opposition to change the debate and set the agenda. If they don't they remain the opposition, because why would anyone want to replace the sitting government if the opposition do not offer anything different?
Yes it’s not hard to answer the question. It’s been answered on this page pretty much.
Indeed in their great completely overshadowed launch of something or another today they managed to actually come up with some basic figures to start with.
It’s the job of the opposition to change the debate and set the agenda.
I was pointing out that Biden has different tools available to him now that Starmer does not. It is still essential that Labour is seen by voters as ready for government, not a talking shop pressure group. Starmer needs to look at what Biden did to get in power, not what he’s able to do now he is there.
I've never understood the split between public sector and private sector for pay rises. If one area deserves a rise then everyone else does. We're just all cogs in the big machine.
A 30% rise would cause a massive rift between the two, even if medical front line workers have excelled. What about the construction guys busting their balls in crap conditions without PPE against covid, don't they deserve 30% extra? Medical gas engineers have been flat out with very little time off in the last year, so why shouldn't they get it as well?
A fair pay rise has to be fair to everyone else. How do you differentiate between ICU nurses and say anaesthetists and surgeons above had less work due to cancelled ops. I know a few who have been in their own words "bored" do they get 30% extra.
It's not going to be an easy thing to sort out, I don't envy anyone in that position.
A fair pay rise has to be fair to everyone else. How do you differentiate between ICU nurses and say anaesthetists and surgeons above had less work due to cancelled ops.
Easy, you start with the lowest paid jobs and the ones that have seen the largest real terms cuts and work upwards. You also work up from the bottom and give the roles in the public sector which require degrees and professional qualifications a lift to bring them up to equivalent professions in the private sector. It's ridiculous that senior social workers, nurses, paramedics etc are paid the same graduate civil engineers, especially when they carry the responsibility of saving iives and have a direct duty of care to patients.
Biden, hardly a left winger, has shown them all up. All these poor souls who've been persuaded that their income must be cut to 'pay the debt' must have eyes agog at the neo-liberal united states. Don't suppose they'll be moved by Starmer squeaking on about fiscal rectitude and financial responsibility.
That was on R4 this am alongside a piece on the state of the UK privatized children's homes. The Tories privatized more public assets than all the other countries in Europe put together (they were re-nationalised by other countries that bought in). The LP repeating the mantra 'we live in the world we live in' is signalling 'don't expect any change from us'. I can see the placards being written now for 'fight for the right to decency', 'togetherness is your right', 'down with this sort of thing', nope, we've already had that one rather too often.
You've got to laugh or else suffer clinical depression.
Yup, Biden is doing good stuff. He won elections (not just the presidential race). Take a good look at those elections, the messages used in them, and the tone of the campaigning. If Labour were in government now, they could use this crisis to embed reform. But they aren't. Like Biden (and the other winning democratic candidates), they have to win over voters who previously voted the other way before they get to ever do anything. Of course, they also have to keep and grow support from those that would never vote Conservative. The concerted attacks on Starmer do more to undermine the last part of that than anything anyone on the front bench has said or done in the past year.
Yep, quite agree they need to win over voters. He seems to be struggling a bit in that department.
Take a good look at those elections
Biden campaigned on the covid stimulus. Many democrats campaigned on even more, such as 2k payouts and a $15 minimum wage which Biden hasn't implemented. It's complete fiction to say voters didn't know what they were going to get under Biden. They knew in advance, and they elected him as a result.
Biden campaigned on the covid stimulus.
Carefully caveated with "should conditions require", and no indication of scale or value. All the careful/responsible language/promises that Labour are trying (with perhaps limited success) to also use.
Yep, quite agree they need to win over voters. He seems to be struggling a bit in that department.
For a start you need to know what would make people vote Labour.
There are many non Labour people on this forum, any of you want to say what Labour would need to do/say to get you to vote for them?
There are many non Labour people on this forum, any of you want to say what Labour would need to do/say to get you to vote for them?
You talking about binners here? 😂
You talking about binners here? 😂
If you ask binners what to do you'll get a stale Monty Python joke in return 🙁
Well, one thing he'd want is for his MP to be Labour again... as he voted Labour, sang the praises of the Labour candidate he voted for, and is vocally highly critical of his Conservative successor. But yeah, he's the problem here, isn't he.
But yeah, he’s the problem here, isn’t he.
Lighten up man! It's friday and it was a joke. ✊
Getting fully behind the nurses' pay claim might be an idea. There's 1.3m people working for the NHS and they've got widespread public support. The way things are, if there's a wave of protests the LP leadership will be invisible whilst arguing 'we can't just print money'.
if there’s a wave of protests the LP leadership will be invisible
Have the generators gone down? Not seen/heard any TV/radio news this week? It's been a very rare chance to hear Labour voices being front and centre... and it's 99% because of their vocal focus on NHS pay.
and it’s 99% because of their vocal focus on NHS pay.
And yet I can't find a single news report which answers the question about what they would do instead.
Edit: Top result on google for 'Labour nurses pay' is the following genius bit of PR. You really couldn't make this shit up. Did it really not occur to the geniuses in labour HQ that if they're going to make such a fuss about nurses pay then they might need to go a bit further than suggesting an insulting rise of 2.1%?
https://labourlist.org/2021/03/labour-criticised-over-refusal-to-back-12-pay-rise-for-nhs-nurses/
Top result on google for ‘Labour nurses pay’ is the following genius bit of PR.
Angela Rayner has been criticised by left activists...
Thanks, "left activists". If anyone can help deflect attention when Labour are finally getting the government on the back foot, and the vast majority of the public on side... it's "left activists". Slow hand clap.
I've posted before about how I've moved towards labour more and more as I've got older. I still absolutely believe that Labour would be infinitely preferable to this current shower.
I am beginning to wonder whether labour's "broad church" is just not suited to the modern world, since the different factions just seem unable to compromise and come together.
I'd far rather they united against the common enemy, but I just don't see it happening, there's just rift upon rift.
I'll vote Labour every time, but just can't see how they'll ever come together to actually form a majority, if everyone just keeps arguing among themselves.
It's bloody depressing, and I wish people would stick with "better than the tories" to get some improvement.
In terms of changing the government, it strikes me as the only possible way, until we get PR, and that will never happen under the tories (appreciate it may not happen ever, but still...)
I went to say something very similar to Fadda the other day but gave up trying to articulate it. There's so much "they're not MY Labour" that it seems to be forgotten that the Tories are the common enemy and the vote should be for whoever holds best chance of opposing them in your constituency.
I'm appalled by the apparent in fighting both within the party and even on here between people who purport to be Labour supporters. I am however unconvinced that this isn't a huge media contrivance, with most of the papers and television being fundamentally if not overtly right wing it seems as if Starmer couldn't get arrested while "Prime Minister" Boris Johnson only has to sneeze to get positive coverage. Corbyn was a gift for the right wing and they're still playing the "at least it's not the other lot in charge" card whenever they do something daft/stupid/dishonest/illegal and Starmer is struggling to break clear of that.
I do wonder what Blair did BITD to get elected and why it's seen as a bad thing to try and replicate it. Even Tory light is better than this True blue UKIP driven Conservative hell.
Thanks speeder - nice to know I'm not alone in my frustration!
It's pragmatism, for me - I'm completely aware that Labour is not perfect, and I know posters on here can be very clear that they're not completely aligned with the posters desires for government, but it would be great if people could put some of their differences aside, and just accept that an "improvement" is all we can realistically get, rather than "everything we want" ...
Thanks, “left activists”.
FFS are you seriously suggesting trade unionists, socialists, plain old social democrats or anyone who has an ounce of compassion or morals should support a 2.1% pay rise? Do you really think anyone is stupid enough to think £7 quid a week more instead of £3.50 is going to make any difference to nurses or win any votes? The whole point is that the vast majority of people will shrug and confirm their long held opinion that they’re all the same.
The only way labour have a chance is by proving that they’re not the same. Forgive the language but I f** despair at the sheer lack of ambition and outright cowardice displayed by Starmer, Rayner et al and anyone who defends this clusterf* of a ‘labour’ leadership. If they can’t even raise themselves to propose something better than 2.1% then they deserve to be annihilated, and they will be, just like they were in Scotland.
*and yes I have been drinking!
FFS are you seriously suggesting trade unionists, socialists, plain old social democrats or anyone who has an ounce of compassion or morals should support a 2.1% pay rise
Remember there is no questioning of the glorious leader. He has spoken and that is that. Okay he was almost as evasive as Johnson but dont mention that. Just repeat the lines you have been given.
Just think back to how the "moderates" behaved under Corbyn and then behave the same way. Maybe include a few moronic screenshots with hilarious captions.
Speeder - in Scotland its worse - we have the tories and labour combining to attack the SNP - the SNP who are close to labour on everything but the constitution
its absurd.
labours behaviour in Scotland and the non aggression pact with the tories saved mays skin by gaining 10 tory seats.
It’s pragmatism, for me – I’m completely aware that Labour is not perfect
Same for me. No party will ever exactly match what I personally want and thinking it will is ridiculous.
What I do know is that pretty much everything the Tory party does and stands for is the exact opposite of what I want to happen so anything is better than that and given current choice of contenders the only party is the Labour party which is close enough.
I still think they need to get a more charismatic leader though to give them a better chance.
'Speaking an event organised by the Labour To Win group last week, Lord Mandelson used the famous SAS motto "Who Dares Wins" as he assessed the direction he believes Sir Keir should take at the helm of the party.Pointing to the removal, in January, of the pro-Corbyn Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard as a step in the right direction, Lord Mandelson added: "Keir will be tested like that again and again, by Corbyn, McCluskey, and the corrupt far left."By the antisemites who are still in our party in large numbers, by the same old fantasy tax and spenders, and by far-left candidates, and by the need to develop credible, affordable policies. "He continued: “We must strengthen Keir’s hand in the tests he’s facing - show the country they have their Labour Party back again.""Keir is not yet a fully formed leader - Covid hasn't helped."But he contrasted the state of Labour now with how it might have been had Mr Corbyn been the leader, insisting the party would have found itself in a "terrible position.""That's why Keir is important," continued the Labour grandee. "He exudes calm confidence and strong values."After the near-death of experience of the Corbyn years, we need to show we are not done." Looking ahead to the forthcoming local council and mayoral elections in May, Lord Mandelson predicted Labour "will do well in some places" but he said the elections were an "unfair test" due to the pandemic. He urged Labour to mount attacks on the Conservatives over their claim to be the party of low taxes. "We should not be nervous about attacking them on this," he said. ' (JC)
So the LP becomes even more rightwing and sectarian and less broad church with more expulsions and he aspires it to become low tax party for his filthy rich. 'Low taxes and low pay for nurses NOW!' A slimmed down near death party might make it easier for his acolytes to be nominated as candidates though. His broad aim is to appoint a new membership.
Leonard gone? Good.
Corbyn gone? Shame, but his choice.
McCluskey corrupt, and to be “resisted”? Hell yes.
The Conservatives riding high going into the May elections because of Vaccine success, and propaganda around it? Hard to deny.
I don’t like Mandleson one tiny bit, but his words you’ve quoted there don’t seem hugely controversial to me.
His broad aim is to appoint a new membership.
Well, you left. So if that really is the aim, you took a step to help him.
“He exudes calm confidence and strong values.”
Calm confidence? Just seems a bit sleepy to me. As for strong values - at this point I have no idea what they are. Not fair pay for nurses, not corrupt ministers resigning - help me out here- what does he believe?
Nah, he helped me. His beliefs? Decency, togetherness, integration, 2.1%.
His slogan for the Red Wall campaign 'pay less tax and f the nurses'.
Nah, he helped me. His beliefs? Decency, togetherness, integration, 2.1%.
I had to check the lyrics to Village Green Preservation Society.
this is broadly speaking a conservative (small c) country that tends to vote Conservative unless the Labour party offers something that doesn't look like a threat to the aspirational values that have been instilled in the population by hundreds of years of free market economics, technological progress & a right wing led media.
Until Labour in all their forms get that clear they're f****d as BillMC so clearly demonstrates.
I agree nurses deserve more pay but what does an appropriate wage amount to and have you costed it? If it looks ridiculous and fantastical the Tories will tear it apart.
I agree nurses deserve more pay but what does an appropriate wage amount to and have you costed it?
I’ve already answered that. Something like 50% more than they currently get paid will put them somewhere near to professionals in other fields. And what do you mean costed? It’ll cost whatever it costs. Why is that important?
I don’t like Mandleson one tiny bit, but his words you’ve quoted there don’t seem hugely controversial to me.
Are you taking the piss? Mandelson is more right wing than most tories. He cares about nothing and no one outside of his own narcissistic self-interest and is the last person labour should be taking advice from.
I agree nurses deserve more pay but what does an appropriate wage amount to and have you costed it? If it looks ridiculous and fantastical the Tories will tear it apart.
The cost could surely be presented in contrast to the test and trace splurge?
The British public have been educated to believe that their proper position in below stairs in some sort of real life Downton Abbey - until we can find a way past that we will continue to be ruled by the privileged who laugh in our faces as they help themselves to our money
hundreds of years of free market economics
This is total bollocks by the way. We’ve had fuedalism, rentier capitalism, monopolism, keynesianism and most recently neoliberalism. The latter is closest to free market economics but has only existed for 40 years, not hundreds. What comes next is up for debate, but it will be different and the changes are already occurring and are being accelerated by covid, climate change and automation.
